Childed or Childfree - Who’s Really Selfish?
13 09 2007Of the more recent conversations on Like It Is, this one has garnered an amazing number of comments. 104 to be exact. When I wrote the post I of course had no idea that it would generate such a lot of interesting comments from men and women who already have children, where no more children are wanted and yet more children are planned - at least by the partner who does want more children.
Given that this is a childfree blog (yes, I have to say that yet again, so that the anti-childfree, and those who wish to convert the childfree can look away now and stop reading) I was surprised at the number of childed folk who also posted. Aside from those who never bothered to read the actual posts and comments, – and the fact that I’m not encouraging childed posters on Like It Is unless they want to contribute positively to childfree conversations, I have to say I was surprised at the number of people who are actually in what to me would be an untenable situation.Where one partner’s choices are deemed less important if the choice does not contain a baby as the end result. I found many of the comments from the men very interesting – and certainly an education.
As I’d suspected, it seems that many men given the choice would either rather not have children at all or, at the very least, would prefer to limit the number of children they did have.
And where they’d had one or two from previous relationships would rather not have added to the number. And often, they found themselves in a hapless and helpless position faced by the immutable, immovable almost physical desire for a child by their partner/wife.
From my vantage point as a childfree women, I am of the firm opinion that if a child isn’t 101% wanted by both parents, they’ve no business having one. Very few of the women who complained their husbands didn’t/no longer wanted to have kids mentioned the potential impact on the child. Perhaps because it never occurred to them to consider it. I also believe (lest I be accused of siding only with the male sex) that anyone who is seeking to manipulate someone into having a child is wrong, whether that person is male or female.
My impression of the childed women commentators overall though, is that with very few exceptions is that they come across as whiny children, sulking and throwing a tantrum when their spouse doesn’t bow to their wish for a child – often another child – and maybe even more than one child. The women seem to care only for the fact that they want another child. Or they want a girl. Or they want a boy. In many cases their desire for a child is more important than their marriage and their spouse. Reasons can range from “Well, I’ve always wanted one,” to “it’s been a deep longing within me ever since —-“ or “my friends are having children and I feel I have to have one.” Common denominator? I. Want.
Tactics can include flat out ultimatums or simply being passive-aggressive. It doesn’t seem to matter that the men don’t want a child, don’t feel confident in their ability to be a good parent (and this can be based on the man’s recent experience) or simply like their relationship the way it is – having seen how children can sap the life from even the strongest relationship. Meanwhile, it seems some relationships, with the potential time-bomb of a child wanted by one and (secretly) not the other partner, are headed for the rocks. Sooner or later they will get there.
The women find it hard to believe, that their men would not willingly want to have a child. I find it hard to fathom just why they hey find this so hard to believe. I can only believe that conditioning to breed is so deep seated that they allow it to control them more than they know. Meanwhile, many men seem unable to articulate their lack of parenting desire. The only thing that matters to these women is that they want a child, and if they didn’t get one life would be made unbearable.
If this isn’t selfishness then what is?
Technorati Tags: childfree, childfree
Wow, congrats on so many comments! I went back to read them all and found the conversation fascinating. Some really wonderful and thoughtful comments to that thread.
I totally agree that so many people seem to refuse to “think” about having children. They just make assumptions. They assume they’ll have them, they’ll assume their partner will change their mind either for or against. All of this instead of real communication and the first person they need to communicate to is themselves!
I dream of a world where all children are wanted, by BOTH parents. A world were people actually talk to each other about their own desires and needs and believe each other about it without trying to change the other person’s mind. A world where everyone takes the time to think about what they really want in their heart instead of letting things happen and then realizing later that they wanted something different. A world where everyone’s views are respected and no one is pressured into doing something they don’t want or denegrated with comments like “you’ll change your mind” which assumes we don’t know our own minds.
Maybe I’m an optimist but I believe it’s possible and with such intelligent forums like this blog, I think we’re one step closer to it. Keep up the good work, Britgirl!
well considering i put 27 of those comments on
i didnt think i was that bad
but 27 out of 104. nearly a quarter..were me..
thats slightly shocking
RMS - thanks… and hear hear. I don’t think it’s impossible at all. In fact, I think if people think half as much about why they want to have kids as they do for say, buying a house, or booking their next holiday, I’m sure we’d have fewer surprises and more realistic expectations. It’s awful that most children happened into the world with little or no thought at all.
I’m very appreciative of the comments in general, and many, particularly from those finding this blog for the first time, those who had never even known that there could be a choice in whether to be childfree or have children, and people who are facing a marriage crisis because of unfulfilled expectations regarding children are so illuminating. I have to say a big thanks overall to commentators who shared very personal (and sometimes pretty painful) stories. Many cautionary tales there. And, of course, to everyone who joined in the conversation to provide the different perspectives.
I read through all those comments and…oh my. It makes me grateful that I am, for all practical purposes, past childbearing age (although I still have to be careful (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), I’m old enough that having a child would not be a good idea). And I have a wonderful significant other who is perfectly fine with that and we have a lovely life together.
Although my blog is not limited to the childfree topic, I have noticed that the posts that receive the most comments are on the childfree topic…especially when I spout off about the discriminatory “momsrising movement.” Argh. It still amazes me that people cannot see the selfishness in parents expecting/demanding/requesting special treatment in the workplace because they made the choice to have children.
Of course it’s selfish, if the other partner doesn’t want children, for what ever reason, the partner that does want children should respect the others wishes. Or at least have a decent conversation and stop acting childish, perhaps a compromise can be made. If the other partner does not want children due to financial or emotional instability, then the best thing (for both parents and child) is to wait until both partners are ready. But this can only be determined through an adult conversation, not childish whining.
Often times, the partner that does want children, or more children, does not stop to ask or think why their partner is not interested in having a child. They simply hear “no” and commence tactics of which the only result is the surrender of the other persons wishes. This of course is the road to a marriage on the rocks, and not to mention the effect on the child that is brought into this unconscious hostile environment. I say unconscious, because one partner will inevitably resent the other for forcing them into a situation they were not prepared for.
I’ve always been of the opinion that many men are ambivalent about having kids of their own. I think a lot of men would not wither away if they never had that football-playing son or cute daughter. What I don’t understand is the lack of articulation from many of them them on the matter. It’s as if they let their wives and girlfriends make their minds up for them with nary an arguement.
well hillari, i am a man, and in this case, men get nagged and nagged and nagged for months, or years, ” I wanna baby, I wanna baby, I wanna baby, I wanna baby, I wanna baby, I wanna baby”. now at first men will argue, but eventually it will be anything for a little peace and quiet.
i can see the arguement, she says “i want a baby”, he says cant afford one, ” but i want a baby, then its if you cared for me you would give me a baby. then its your a mean person for not giving me a baby. and so on.
in the past b4 i came out as being childfree, i too thought if she wants it and it makes her happy, and i can have a bit of a peaceful life without the constant nagging. then why not.
then of course, sometimes it can be claimed its verbal /emotional abuse, to not give her what she wants. men want a peaceful life, without the nagging, so they give in..
It’s a bit strange to be giving in to someone who wants a child when you don’t to have a peaceful life, isn’t it? I mean, children and peaceful don’t really go together most of the time, at least not in my classroom and surely not in my childhood home growing up.
That all said, I read the whole thread, which I ignored after posting on it rather early on, and found that it’s a much more complex issue than I think either side sometimes considers. There are certainly cases where men or women are perfectly clear about their intentions when they get together with their partner (my first husband was one of these), but I think it’s disingenuous to think that there aren’t cases where people change their minds one way or other deep into relationships, or cases where people are led on to believe one thing, and wake up one day to find out that the opposite position is being claimed.
From my own perspective, and I don’t have children by reality first (could never stay pregnant) and then by choice ( we decided not to pursue adoption or fertility treatments), there is a wide range of experiences out there and we need to be careful not to judge all of them by the same measure. This, I think, is prudent for both CF folks and folks who want children and are in these difficult situations. Not all of them are there because they weren’t listening, and it really can’t be easy to have to decide between someone you love dearly and something that you really want to have in your life once the conflict arises. Not everything is always so black and white, and I don’t believe that in every single case (and certainly not in every single case in those 104 comments even), it’s the person who wants the child or children who is automatically being the selfish one.
I know CF can sometimes be irritated by the assumptions of general society, but it really is no different from the general assumptions that we should all be married or coupled, or the old general assumptions that everyone was heterosexual, etc… The world is changing, this blog and others like it serve to enlighten others, but there also needs to be a realisation that everyone on the “other side” need not be painted with the same brush or automatically deemed as selfish for this enlightenment to happen.
On a related note, somewhat- I know animals aren’t children, but it would be hard for me to live with someone who didn’t want to have pets. I can’t imagine my house without them. Does it make me selfish for insisting the house have a cat or two in it? Not necessarily, and not automatically. (For the record, I do know children are much more work and need far more attention).
The only reasonable reason a person could give for having a child is that “I want to do the work to raise another human to be a productive member of society to the fullest extent of their abilities”. And yet? I’ve never once in my 37 years heard anyone give that as their reason for having a child.
So, yes, I do believe it is selfish for a person to have a child without any intention of doing that work. It is selfish for a person to have a child and do a shitty job of raising it and it is selfish for a person to demand a child from someone who does not want one. A person who wants a child has ample opportunities for interacting with children, fostering or adoption. A person who does not want a child, and ends up some how having one, can never go back.
A child is a forever thing, even if you aren’t actively engaged in it’s life, there’s always the potential of that child showing up on your doorstep expecting some sort of relationship which you may be unable, or unwilling to provide.
No, it isn’t like wanting a car, or a pony or a flat screen tv. Because those things require no care or don’t have to interact with the rest of society. If you do a crappy job raising your pony, you and the stable are the only ones affected.
Emma - glad that the post(s) and comments are giving some food for thought. I think that if these varying perspectives can cause someone to think about this issue when they maybe wouldn’t have that’s a good thing! I’m also very grateful that it’s more than unlikely that I’ll have kids… but like you I don’t take any chances
Jan - You nailed it. I believe that, regardless of whether minds were made up or not, once a partner sets out to manipulate the other into actively doing something that they want, it is without doubt selfish. The consequences of doing this with having children (forcing someone into parenthood when they don’t wish to be parents) are so huge that is it amazing it is never considered to be a selfish act. Of course we know that the main reason for that a baby and children are considered the be-all and end-all, and that in most cases everything else is deemed to be less important.
Hillari - I actually think many men would rather NOT have children. I also think mercurior is correct, in that many men simply give in to their spouses constant nagging to have a child. If saying no means no sex, being in the doghouse and being emotionally blackmailed and being made to feel the “bad guy” or worse, what do you think the men’s response will be? Also, many don’t know that they actually can consider an alternative, many men truly want to make their spouses happy and think if having a baby means so much to their spouse, why should they stand in their way? I cannot imagine the pressure brought to bear on a reluctant husband to parent - I am not surprised that so few say no.
Feh - good points and true. And I have never heard anyone give that reason either. Interesting isn’t it? I believe the comments on the thread are probably only the tip of a very big iceberg. The fact is no-one seems to consider the job of raising the child. Only having one.
Anne-Marie - Interesting points. I think you were referring to mercurior’s reference to peace or “a quiet life” (?). I don’t think he meant peace as in a peaceful household with kids, just peace from the perpetual nagging to have one - or more. It is a complex issue, yes. However reading through many of the comments, it seems that it is an issue that perhaps does not have to be as complex as it is made out to be. But when people have unrealistic expectations of their partner and never, as RMS has pointed out, stop to think about whether having kids is the right thing to do, instead expecting people to change their minds because they do - then there is going to be complexity - big time.
People do change their minds. But the point isn’t that they change their minds as much as they seem set on the outcomes being what they want them to be and that their partners should, without exception, fall in with their new wants. I also believe that much of this is driven by myth we are all sold and which is perpetuated - that having children is what women do, having children proves love, having children should not be questions, having children, makes you a woman, having children makes you a man, having children makes you complete, having children makes you unselfish,etc, etc. Those are all lies. I think we are still some way from shrugging off the old societal myth just yet because that myth, still drives much of society. We take for granted a different frame of reference because we know better. From the comments on the post, many are not even aware of anything different. Yet.
I think the reason that the person who is demanding kids when the other does not want to be a parent is deemed to be the selfish one… is because they probably are the selfish one. There is very little talk of the child, only what they want and how they expect their partner to co-operate.
I believe when you are asking your partner to parent you are telling them to commit their lives to this child/these children. If they are not willing and yet you insist on them becoming a parent, that IS selfish. It’s also manipulative. And it potentially hurts the child. It isn’t necessary to reproduce (even though that’s what we are sold). I believe it is better not to bring a child into the world that to bring one into the world when you know your partner less than willing or unable to commit to all that bringing that child up entails and you just plan to change their minds and insist on having that child or more children.
Children, as Feh says are forever. They should be wanted by both parents.
Most of the commentators in that situation simply believed that regardless of what the reluctant one said, they would eventually change their minds… apparently if worn down enough, or if given the the appropriate ultimatums or if they kept up the demands.
This blog isn’t about advice, just views and perspectives - although I’d always say talk to your partner. But perhaps the best advice to those in the difficult situations would be… choose your partner more wisely next time.
I wanted to add…I think the only reason that deciding not to have children could be deemed selfish is if the persons DNA is so superior and of genius material that it would be denying mankind something irreplaceable if it wasn’t replicated. Or if there was danger of the billions of people already on this planet using up the world’s precious resources suddenly died out. Both scenarios are unlikely and neither is the case today. And even Einstein didn’t have children.
Childfree people might do well to remember this the next time the selfish charge is levelled at them.
Feh, I’ve actually heard people say just those things, although it is not the kind of comment you’d have in a casual conversation. As a teacher, I’ve heard it articulated, and I’ve seen parents make every effort and sacrifice to make sure that is the outcome. I think that, because I teach, I end up in far deeper conversation with a lot of parents and just see things a bit differently. I am also, perhaps because most of my friends are aware that I cannot have children naturally, not generally questioned on my lack of procreating. What
is funny is that close friends with children sometimes sigh and envy us our freedom, but say that we all have different lives and that there are positives and negatives to each of them. I tend to think that’s true, whatever the societal pressure is (and I don’t deny that it exists)- there are great joys to children, whether you teach them or have your own, and they can also be pains in the neck, This is true of family, spouses, friends, pets, in fact any living creatures that we interact with.
Britgirl, I was indeed referring to Mercurior’s comment of wanting a peaceful life, which I thought was funny on the part of men who cave in to be nag-free and yet end up with lots of other noise and bustle when they eventually have children.
I totally agree with you that we have a lot of pressure as women to have children, but also to marry and behave in many ways that are not generally expected of men. Men have their own unfortunate stereotypes to live up to, as well. The secret is to keep talking, putting different perspective out there, and eventually people will be allowed to be who they want to be. I just don’t think that putting others down for being in agreement or disagreement with what is considered “the norm” or “the ideal” is helpful, because there are those who are genuinely doing things for their own right reasons in the same way CF folks are. We need to respect all the choices, as long as they’re true choices and don’t hurt others.
I finally finished the 104 comments on the aforementioned entry. Now I’m tired and my eyes are sore. I really hope none of those people come back. It was like the twilight zone!
anne marie i meant, the peace from the constant i want i want, we know having a child is not peaceful, but its a different kind of peace.
imagine a man coming up to you and keep asking you out can i have a date , please 40 or 50 times a month, you may say of for gods sake, i will go on a date, dont want too. and so its over.. thats the sort of peace it would be.
ok you may find u like this person, but you may not. exactly like having a child. the household will not be peaceful, but its different can t really explain it. perhaps the men dont realise the scope of it, or they think she wants it, she can deal with it.. i done my duty now i can do my own stuff. (it doesnt work but thats the idea that men get from society, the pro woman, the lets ignore me idea thats all over).
look at the tv shows, especially the one with children, the man is relegated to either the buffoon, or a 3rd character. so who can blame men for giving in.
its hard to explain, but men do talk when women arent around, and in my experience over half of men my age are nagged into having a child.. and they regret it. but they will be in worse situations if they leave so they stay.
Mercurior, I am sure it happens more than most people think, the bit about men being nagged into having kids they aren’t interested in having. In the end, it does make for an unhappy child, a frazzled mother, and a stressed household. I can’t imagine why someone (man or woman) would want to have a child without both parties interested, and more than just interested, willing to share the workload. Don’t even get me started about being nagged and bullied into doing things you don’t want to do… I get enough of that at work sometimes. (”But the students need .”
It’s just funny to me that the responses I get to the phrase “I do not want to do the work of raising a child” are completely thoughtless. I’ve never heard a parent, even ones I know well, say “Oh, well that makes sense”, but instead they respond with more, non-child centric bingos…
“Who will take care of you when you’re older?”
“Don’t you want to know what you and your SO’s child would look like?”
“But they’re such a joy”
“They’ve changed my life”
“What about your parents? Shouldn’t they get to be grandparents?”
Having a child should be about the desire to raise that child, not about making a nurse for my old age, fufilling curiosity, kodak moments, changing your life, or my parents wants.
And the capper of all anti child bingos, after a person has expressed no interest in raising a child: “but you’d make such great parents”. I mean, really, what in the phrase “I do not want to do the work of raising a child” indicates any potential for great parenting?
My biggest problem is with people who just follow the herd, who just have kids for no actual reason, but because it’s expected of them, they’re curious, or it “just happened”. Why is it that breeders don’t seem to take this seriously in any sense of the word? Don’t they understand that in some sense, parenting is the most important job in the world, and their refusal to actually do any work to raise their children over a desire to have a “little buddy” who will adore them because they’ve never been told NO, will have a big impact on all our futures?
Feh, I’ve heard the “you’d make great parents” line often too. I think what some people are (clumsily, mind you) saying is that you have great qualities and character. At least, that’s how I took it.
I’ve honestly never heard someone tell me they had kids to have care when they’re older- the other reasons, yes, but that one is bizarre and foolish to say the least.
@Christine - I hope they don’t come back either. But they won’t be posting to that thread any more if they do.
@Feh - Those are among the most often heard reasons I’ve heard as well. I think it says a lot about the motives and intentions. The fact that these are accepted as good reasons to have a child - and most see nothing wrong with them as reasons is the scary thing.
Anne - Marie - OK, I need convincing that, on seeing you once or twice with a child, someone can determine whether you’d be good with children on a long term basis, as in having your own! To determine qualities you need to know a person over a longer period of time, and the same for character. You’d have to see them for long periods of time with kids. To me, even having a good character doesn’t mean having patience with children. And if a person has said they have no interest in raising a child, how does that qualify them to be potentially “great parents?”
I’m tempted to say they mean well… but how can they when they haven’t even listened to what the speaker has said?
Britgirl, no one who has even seen me once or twice has ever said that, rather some very good friends who do know me quite well, and yeah, it would need convincing in that once or twice case. I agree that good character does not equal patience, but it might imply that you have goodwill towards other or some notion like that, which is what I think people tend to mean and yeah, it doesn’t totally make sense but people don’t always make sense even with the best of intentions.
i say, i know myself, rather better than they know me, so whose judgment should the listen too. i know my strengths and my weaknesses, they dont, they take 30 minutes to judge i am a perfect father. they dont see me in the mornings, or the evenings. but i know me better than anyone
I can see where things get complicated when two people enter into a relationship with the same goals and certain agreements, only to have one person change and the other hasn’t, didn’t, or won’t. Each person, IMO, has the right to change their mind. It is not selfish.
Selfishiness, IMO, comes in when the one insists the other changes. That gets tough. Especially when you’ve built a life with that person. People don’t necessarily want to give up their current life and many want to continue on in the same path - whether that is bearing children (or more children) or not having any children.
I admit it is not easy for me to sympathise. I’ve been too hard headed, and my decision on remaining free of children is firm - completely set in stone. I have told men that I have dated, and even the current one I am dating, that if they EVER change their minds and want children, to start looking elsewhere because I’m not having them. Period. I am willing to be alone in life if it means that if in order to have a man in my life I must bear children. I’ll do without, thanks. I am fortunate right now who I have in my life and like I have mentioned before, while I would be EXTREMELY sad if he changed his mind and moved on, I would still rather not have kids just to be with him.
At anyrate, due to my point of view and my admitted bias *towards* the childfree community - I am completely against someone forcing someone else to have kids, or even have more kids. When you have a situation that affects more than one person, the stakes in life changes. Breeders (regardless of gender) are so full of their own needs, wants, and desires, that they cannot see beyond their own selves. And that’s pretty sad.
If the selfish person was, say, an alcoholic or drug addict - who very nearly exhibits the same selfish tendencies as someone who is so enthralled and addicted to the idea of having a baby - were to do or say the same things, there’d be no question that the addict was the selfish person. Were a man to try and force and exert his will over a woman, he would be labeled no less than an abuser. (Either emotional or physical.) Why then are women not considered abusers when it comes to their VERY MEAN and selfish manipulative tactics of coercion in getting a man to sire a child? It’s unreal the double standard that exists. IMO, abuse is abuse.
That’s my 0.2 cents.
Thank you for letting me share, Britgirl.
Brit girl:
Einstein did have kids. The following post was posted on Bella’s Married No Kids forum recently…
I came across an interesting tidbit of info when I was reading about the link between brilliance/creativity and depression. They talked about Van Gogh, Churchill and Tolstoy. And they mentioned in the article that Einstein’s son was a schizophrenic.
Ironically, in the past, I remember thinking that if I was Einstein or someone insanely off the charts in intelligence or other natural talent, that I might feel somewhat obligated to reproduce. I checked on the net, and Einstein and his first wife had two sons. They were both exceptionally intelligent, and the oldest son became a hydraulics engineer, while the younger was diagnosed with schizophrenia around 20 and spent the rest of his days in a mental institution, and died at 55!
So, the moral of the story… The next time someone tells you that “the smart people” aren’t having kids anymore, and you just have to have one, you can whip out this little bit of trivia. There aren’t any guarantees.
The Wikipedia entry went on to say that…
“most of the money Einstein had received upon being awarded the Nobel Prize went towards his care…”
He was quoted as saying the following about family:
‘I’m not much with people,’ he continued, ‘and I’m not a family man. I want my peace.
CFsinceSix, I totally agree with you about the changing minds thing. We’re very lucky in that we know what we want, but there are zillions of people who will go back and forth on this issue over time, and might settle on the definitive answer very late in the game. And by then, they might have the spouse, the house, the cars and the cats, before they wake up one morning and discover that what they thought they might have wanted, they don’t want any more. It’s not selfish. It happens. People change.
For a partner that has a deep biological want for a child, a change of mind must be totally devastating. And I truly agree that these people, the ones who want to raise children for the sheer joy of doing so, have little choice but to pursue their own happiness. Nobody should be blamed for that. We assert our right to it all the time. But you’re also right about how many people have never explored beyond the superficial reasons for wanting kids, and if they were to do so honestly, might be surprised at what they find.
I try not to judge when this sort of situation comes up. If both parties are being honest about their wants, then sometimes the only solution is to go your separate ways, and try and find that person who can give you what you desire. Honesty is the key. Not tantrums, threats, whining, or self-absorption, but an appreciation of what you have, and a willingness to listen and try to understand.
Someone made a comment about how hard it was to find true love and a compatible partner, only to have them throw it all away to cry for the moon. That to me, is the saddest situation of all.
on_einstein… I stand corrected then if Einstein had kids. The basic premise is the same though. And you are correct - there are no guarantees. People seem to think that there are.
I think one of the main things that makes an adult is knowing that you can’t always get what you want, even if you really Really REALLY want it real bad.
Just because I want to experience space flight doesn’t mean I deserve to experience it without any sort of training. Just because I want to wander unfettered through the files of many government agencies, doesn’t mean it should happen. Just because I want a pony, doesn’t mean I should go out and buy one when I live in a second floor apartment in the middle of a city. AND just because once in a while I might happen to feel “I want a kid, they’re fun to play with” doesn’t mean that it’s reasonable for me to actually have one. The only things that make wanting children any different from wanting anything else is that 1) you need the consent of another person to make one, 2) once you have one, it’s legally irreversable, 3)they will eventually grow to have to interact with the rest of society.
Feh, you make some really excellent points. And that’s exactly the thing about children and why I feel, IMO, there can be no “compromise” on children, not even with having “just one.” It takes the consent of another person and it involves their physical being. Some people just don’t see it that way. Probably many of those same people who think, “They’ll change their mind.” and cannot fathom that someone would think differently.
Kat,
I really like your third paragraph. It is indicative a mature and caring adult. So many people are blind beyond their own “supposed” needs (which are really wants) that they don’t care. I mean, really *care* about another person. And as a result, try to cling rather than let go and trust what happens may be for the best, whether a person likes it or not.
And your last paragraph: I admit a fault in not understanding how someone would choose a non-existent person (a child they do not have but want) over someone who is right here, right now, present.
I would just like to add that it’s wonderful to read such well thoughtout comments on such a challenging issue. This blog and Purple Women have created an environment for rational, intelligent discussion without blaming or finger-pointing. My gratitude goes to Britgirl and Teri at Purple Women, but also to all the intelligent commentors. It’s always a pleasure to stop in here!
As always: thought provoking, informative, and very interesting comments. Thanks all!