I really like your third paragraph. It is indicative a mature and caring adult. So many people are blind beyond their own “supposed” needs (which are really wants) that they don’t care. I mean, really *care* about another person. And as a result, try to cling rather than let go and trust what happens may be for the best, whether a person likes it or not.

And your last paragraph: I admit a fault in not understanding how someone would choose a non-existent person (a child they do not have but want) over someone who is right here, right now, present.

For a partner that has a deep biological want for a child, a change of mind must be totally devastating. And I truly agree that these people, the ones who want to raise children for the sheer joy of doing so, have little choice but to pursue their own happiness. Nobody should be blamed for that. We assert our right to it all the time. But you’re also right about how many people have never explored beyond the superficial reasons for wanting kids, and if they were to do so honestly, might be surprised at what they find.

I try not to judge when this sort of situation comes up. If both parties are being honest about their wants, then sometimes the only solution is to go your separate ways, and try and find that person who can give you what you desire. Honesty is the key. Not tantrums, threats, whining, or self-absorption, but an appreciation of what you have, and a willingness to listen and try to understand.

Someone made a comment about how hard it was to find true love and a compatible partner, only to have them throw it all away to cry for the moon. That to me, is the saddest situation of all.

Einstein did have kids. The following post was posted on Bella’s Married No Kids forum recently…

I came across an interesting tidbit of info when I was reading about the link between brilliance/creativity and depression. They talked about Van Gogh, Churchill and Tolstoy. And they mentioned in the article that Einstein’s son was a schizophrenic.

Ironically, in the past, I remember thinking that if I was Einstein or someone insanely off the charts in intelligence or other natural talent, that I might feel somewhat obligated to reproduce. I checked on the net, and Einstein and his first wife had two sons. They were both exceptionally intelligent, and the oldest son became a hydraulics engineer, while the younger was diagnosed with schizophrenia around 20 and spent the rest of his days in a mental institution, and died at 55!

So, the moral of the story… The next time someone tells you that “the smart people” aren’t having kids anymore, and you just have to have one, you can whip out this little bit of trivia. There aren’t any guarantees.

The Wikipedia entry went on to say that…

“most of the money Einstein had received upon being awarded the Nobel Prize went towards his care…”

He was quoted as saying the following about family:
‘I’m not much with people,’ he continued, ‘and I’m not a family man. I want my peace.

Selfishiness, IMO, comes in when the one insists the other changes. That gets tough. Especially when you’ve built a life with that person. People don’t necessarily want to give up their current life and many want to continue on in the same path - whether that is bearing children (or more children) or not having any children.

I admit it is not easy for me to sympathise. I’ve been too hard headed, and my decision on remaining free of children is firm - completely set in stone. I have told men that I have dated, and even the current one I am dating, that if they EVER change their minds and want children, to start looking elsewhere because I’m not having them. Period. I am willing to be alone in life if it means that if in order to have a man in my life I must bear children. I’ll do without, thanks. I am fortunate right now who I have in my life and like I have mentioned before, while I would be EXTREMELY sad if he changed his mind and moved on, I would still rather not have kids just to be with him.

At anyrate, due to my point of view and my admitted bias *towards* the childfree community - I am completely against someone forcing someone else to have kids, or even have more kids. When you have a situation that affects more than one person, the stakes in life changes. Breeders (regardless of gender) are so full of their own needs, wants, and desires, that they cannot see beyond their own selves. And that’s pretty sad.

If the selfish person was, say, an alcoholic or drug addict - who very nearly exhibits the same selfish tendencies as someone who is so enthralled and addicted to the idea of having a baby - were to do or say the same things, there’d be no question that the addict was the selfish person. Were a man to try and force and exert his will over a woman, he would be labeled no less than an abuser. (Either emotional or physical.) Why then are women not considered abusers when it comes to their VERY MEAN and selfish manipulative tactics of coercion in getting a man to sire a child? It’s unreal the double standard that exists. IMO, abuse is abuse.

That’s my 0.2 cents. Thank you for letting me share, Britgirl.

@Feh - Those are among the most often heard reasons I’ve heard as well. I think it says a lot about the motives and intentions. The fact that these are accepted as good reasons to have a child - and most see nothing wrong with them as reasons is the scary thing.

Anne - Marie - OK, I need convincing that, on seeing you once or twice with a child, someone can determine whether you’d be good with children on a long term basis, as in having your own! To determine qualities you need to know a person over a longer period of time, and the same for character. You’d have to see them for long periods of time with kids. To me, even having a good character doesn’t mean having patience with children. And if a person has said they have no interest in raising a child, how does that qualify them to be potentially “great parents?”

I’m tempted to say they mean well… but how can they when they haven’t even listened to what the speaker has said?

I’ve honestly never heard someone tell me they had kids to have care when they’re older- the other reasons, yes, but that one is bizarre and foolish to say the least.

And the capper of all anti child bingos, after a person has expressed no interest in raising a child: “but you’d make such great parents”. I mean, really, what in the phrase “I do not want to do the work of raising a child” indicates any potential for great parenting?

My biggest problem is with people who just follow the herd, who just have kids for no actual reason, but because it’s expected of them, they’re curious, or it “just happened”. Why is it that breeders don’t seem to take this seriously in any sense of the word? Don’t they understand that in some sense, parenting is the most important job in the world, and their refusal to actually do any work to raise their children over a desire to have a “little buddy” who will adore them because they’ve never been told NO, will have a big impact on all our futures?

imagine a man coming up to you and keep asking you out can i have a date , please 40 or 50 times a month, you may say of for gods sake, i will go on a date, dont want too. and so its over.. thats the sort of peace it would be.

ok you may find u like this person, but you may not. exactly like having a child. the household will not be peaceful, but its different can t really explain it. perhaps the men dont realise the scope of it, or they think she wants it, she can deal with it.. i done my duty now i can do my own stuff. (it doesnt work but thats the idea that men get from society, the pro woman, the lets ignore me idea thats all over).

look at the tv shows, especially the one with children, the man is relegated to either the buffoon, or a 3rd character. so who can blame men for giving in.

its hard to explain, but men do talk when women arent around, and in my experience over half of men my age are nagged into having a child.. and they regret it. but they will be in worse situations if they leave so they stay.

Britgirl, I was indeed referring to Mercurior’s comment of wanting a peaceful life, which I thought was funny on the part of men who cave in to be nag-free and yet end up with lots of other noise and bustle when they eventually have children.

I totally agree with you that we have a lot of pressure as women to have children, but also to marry and behave in many ways that are not generally expected of men. Men have their own unfortunate stereotypes to live up to, as well. The secret is to keep talking, putting different perspective out there, and eventually people will be allowed to be who they want to be. I just don’t think that putting others down for being in agreement or disagreement with what is considered “the norm” or “the ideal” is helpful, because there are those who are genuinely doing things for their own right reasons in the same way CF folks are. We need to respect all the choices, as long as they’re true choices and don’t hurt others.

Childfree people might do well to remember this the next time the selfish charge is levelled at them.

Jan - You nailed it. I believe that, regardless of whether minds were made up or not, once a partner sets out to manipulate the other into actively doing something that they want, it is without doubt selfish. The consequences of doing this with having children (forcing someone into parenthood when they don’t wish to be parents) are so huge that is it amazing it is never considered to be a selfish act. Of course we know that the main reason for that a baby and children are considered the be-all and end-all, and that in most cases everything else is deemed to be less important.

Hillari - I actually think many men would rather NOT have children. I also think mercurior is correct, in that many men simply give in to their spouses constant nagging to have a child. If saying no means no sex, being in the doghouse and being emotionally blackmailed and being made to feel the “bad guy” or worse, what do you think the men’s response will be? Also, many don’t know that they actually can consider an alternative, many men truly want to make their spouses happy and think if having a baby means so much to their spouse, why should they stand in their way? I cannot imagine the pressure brought to bear on a reluctant husband to parent - I am not surprised that so few say no.

Feh - good points and true. And I have never heard anyone give that reason either. Interesting isn’t it? I believe the comments on the thread are probably only the tip of a very big iceberg. The fact is no-one seems to consider the job of raising the child. Only having one.

Anne-Marie - Interesting points. I think you were referring to mercurior’s reference to peace or “a quiet life” (?). I don’t think he meant peace as in a peaceful household with kids, just peace from the perpetual nagging to have one - or more. It is a complex issue, yes. However reading through many of the comments, it seems that it is an issue that perhaps does not have to be as complex as it is made out to be. But when people have unrealistic expectations of their partner and never, as RMS has pointed out, stop to think about whether having kids is the right thing to do, instead expecting people to change their minds because they do - then there is going to be complexity - big time.

People do change their minds. But the point isn’t that they change their minds as much as they seem set on the outcomes being what they want them to be and that their partners should, without exception, fall in with their new wants. I also believe that much of this is driven by myth we are all sold and which is perpetuated - that having children is what women do, having children proves love, having children should not be questions, having children, makes you a woman, having children makes you a man, having children makes you complete, having children makes you unselfish,etc, etc. Those are all lies. I think we are still some way from shrugging off the old societal myth just yet because that myth, still drives much of society. We take for granted a different frame of reference because we know better. From the comments on the post, many are not even aware of anything different. Yet.

I think the reason that the person who is demanding kids when the other does not want to be a parent is deemed to be the selfish one… is because they probably are the selfish one. There is very little talk of the child, only what they want and how they expect their partner to co-operate.

I believe when you are asking your partner to parent you are telling them to commit their lives to this child/these children. If they are not willing and yet you insist on them becoming a parent, that IS selfish. It’s also manipulative. And it potentially hurts the child. It isn’t necessary to reproduce (even though that’s what we are sold). I believe it is better not to bring a child into the world that to bring one into the world when you know your partner less than willing or unable to commit to all that bringing that child up entails and you just plan to change their minds and insist on having that child or more children.

Children, as Feh says are forever. They should be wanted by both parents.

Most of the commentators in that situation simply believed that regardless of what the reluctant one said, they would eventually change their minds… apparently if worn down enough, or if given the the appropriate ultimatums or if they kept up the demands.

This blog isn’t about advice, just views and perspectives - although I’d always say talk to your partner. But perhaps the best advice to those in the difficult situations would be… choose your partner more wisely next time.