Pope Blasts Europeans For Not Having Enough Children
17 09 2007Now don’t blow a gasket on reading this one sent to me by reader Kath. Seems that the Pope is getting really irate at us selfish childless childfree Europeans. Do people still listen to this old man?
Making his speech in Austria, it was of course just another opportunity for the old man to berate abortion in Austria. Abortion is allowed in Austria, and so far, despite the old Pope’s lambasting there will be no calls for a change in the law. Rather than criticising Europeans for discovering, happily that there is more to life than simply breeding (which, if you are a good Catholic wife I understand you are encouraged to do as part of your wifely duties) he’d be better off trying to determine why the church has lost so much of its influence over the past few years.
Could this be because of out of touch “blasts” like his latest? Calling people selfish for “not having enough” children is hardly the way to encourage the determined childfree to get back on the breeding wagon, even if it does give the anti-childfree some ammunition to take pot-shots at their childfree neighbours. I think he imagines that those who have decided they don’t want to breed like rabbits to bolster the population can’t think for themselves and must be reminded of their lack of selflessness. Must be an attempt to play the guilt card, something the church is good at.
It should be no surprise then that he describes abortion as “the complete opposite to human rights.” Perhaps, as he is saying that the fundamental human right is the right to life itself, it won’t be too long before any woman who determines not to have one (by not getting pregnant in the first place) would be guilty of denying some non-existent child the right to life. OK, so it is a bit of a stretch now, but as I always say, it’s a slippery slope.
Good thing I don’t rely on an old man telling me what I should do with my reproduction.
Myself, the part I found the most unintelligible was this…
“… Benedict held out hope, saying: “The earth will be deprived of a future only when the forces of the human heart and of reason illuminated by the heart are extinguished . . . “
Meaning? What does that have to do with Europeans having more children?
Pope blasts Europeans for not having enough children
Technorati Tags: childfree
Sounds like the desperate pleadings of a dying church to keep the pews filled.
i am a roman catholic, very much lapsed. but i still have quite a lot of friends who go to the church, they may pay lip service to the church but most of them dont beleive certain things in the religion.
the church is dying, because of of the self interest of the church leaders, they cant move with the times. If any religious person comes to me and says i should have a child, i will say.. ok… god made me, and god knows everything, therefor god knew i was childfree, and and atheist/agnostic, and if he had wanted i wouldnt. so therefore i am doing gods work by being childfree and an athiest.
(and sit back and watch their heads explode).
catholic, and christianity ahave nothing to do with the real world, the priest and vicars dont have to work, they dont have to do anything but stand up for 2 hours on a sunday. to actually change the church to be more relevant in todays world, will make them less powerful as individuals.
I hope I don’t offend any of you who may hold the Catholic Church is some regard. But I am convinced the only reasons they want everyone to breed is
a) to keep us uppity women in our place. Pregnant with a litter of brats wrangling round our ankles as we do the domestic drudgery. Leaving men to do all the interesting and enjoyable stuff.
b) to keep the priesthood supplied with a constant source of children that can be abused. The reason priests were forbidden from marrying was because the costs of supporting those widows/fatherless offspring of dead priests was eating into the church’s profits centuries ago. So hey presto ban priests from marrying. Leaving the priests sexually fustrated and the wealthy church able to save its money. But - from the overwhelming evidence-it’s clear that the RC church doesn’t count sexual abuse of children as serious and they even seem to encourage it when they think they can get away with it.
May this corupt church rot!. In hell if these is such a place.
As a practicing Catholic, let me dispel some of the myths that surround us. Except in the Third World, most Catholics don’t listen to the Vatican at all. We nod politely while thinking about who we’re going to hookup with at the club tonight and deciding which condoms to take with. The Pope is really like the principal of the high school in Dangerous Minds before Michelle Pfeiffer shows up: all the kids are bad, hopelessly bad, and there’s no bringing them back into line. We love our church for whatever reasons we have (mine is the tradition and lack of fundie judgmentalism), but some rules the clergy has made are just too damn inconvenient. So we ignore them. Conveniently.
That said, I do not think the church should “update” because then the religion just becomes “belief du jour.” Members of a religion believe in certain things as the Truth. If that Truth keeps changing when the trends do, it is no longer the Truth, it’s just belief of the day. Besides, as shown in the above paragraph, we update ourselves anyway. We’re not computers that need a new update installed by our leader before we get with it. We can do that on our own.
@FedUpWithBadParents: Actually, the church banned marriage for priests during the Middle Ages when they got all bent out of shape over sexual mores of the time. They thought wives distracted priests from their church duties. And no way in hell does the church encourage child molestation. You say you hope you don’t offend anybody, but you sure went out of your way to do so.
i have known some good priests (brothers), and i have known some drunken abusive sots.. but as i said “to actually change the church to be more relevant in todays world, will make them less powerful as individuals.”
theres a fine line to make it more relevant, or to leave old customs as they are, the catholic church used to say mass in latin 40 - 50 years ago.. they updated it.
i am a lapsed catholic, the other side of strawberry, but i agree with what she says, most of the congregation arent thinking about piety, but about whats for supper tonight, thats why its called lip service.
priests can be bad like any human, you neighbour your college teacher so not all priests are bad, (i personally dont like most of them but a couple arent too bad)
strawberrymuffin
please explain then why the archbishops contue to ensure priests who are known to molest children continue to be given duties that involve children - until of course some victim (a child-not a pervert) goes to the police and the press. Our dear RC leaders here seem very keen to ensure their perverts are protected (unlike their victims)
I find it very interesting that the Catholic faith is based highy on the fact that people reproduce and yet the very same people that we are supposed to look up to are what celebate? Hmmm… that doesn’t make sense, so if someone comes up to you and criticizes you for not having kids. Explain to them that I am trying to be closer to God by not having them. Isn’t that the right thing to do. The common sense in that religion is shocking for the most part. I went to an all girls catholic high school who and they taught us to be very very female proactive. But yet their final words to all of us were to bow down to men. This again contradicts what they were teaching us.
@FedUp: Personally, I think a good 99% of those allegations are completely false and conveniently lacking any actual evidence (the abuse always happened about 40-50 years ago, the priest is likely dead already, there’s only enough evidence for liability, and the statute of limitations expired during the Cold War) because liability=cash if you can cough up enough crocodile tears in court. You’d be surprised how low many people will sink just to get money.
@Vesta: I don’t know what you mean that the church is based on reproduction, because it’s not. The Catholic church believes all sex is supposed to be procreative, that’s why it’s against birth control (left over from medieval sexual mores) and the clergy is celibate because it takes an assload of discipline to vow lifelong celibacy, and such discipline is believed to make priests closer to God. You’re not trying to be closer to God by not having kids, you’re trying to be closer to God by not having sex. It’s easy to not have kids, but most people couldn’t go their whole life without sex.
My personal view of religion (of any flavour or church) is that it’s more about a set of man-made rules used to keep people in their place than it is about truth. You’re given a set of rules. If you’re not part of the headship, break them and there are penalties. Guilt is guaranteed. If you are part of the headship then it appears you can get away with breaking some rules as long as and for as long as it can be covered up.
I do believe many catholics do not listen to the Pope nowadays - on some things. But many still do - as can be seen by the huge crowds he pulls and the attention he gets and the way his words are carried by news and other media. It does beg the question - if one is only going to nod and ignore what a person says, what is the point of paying any attention in the first place?
Having said that I can quite see why people do ignore most of the church’s sayings… many seem to have no connection with real lives today.
The church needs to move with the times on many things. It can do this without being seen as whimsical. It seems to be stuck in a time warp, particularly when it comes to women. Still. Telling people that contraception is “bad” (sinful) and ignoring the impact of that on women and families, saying that abortion is “against human rights”, his sayings on Europeans not breeding enough, are to me a clear indication that he does need to do more understanding of people’s lives and needs today, rather than encouraging them to have more kids when they don’t want to (and how many is “enough?”. That seems to be a hangover from when the Catholic church was involved in the minutae of people’s lives. It should get out from concerning itself with women’s reproduction, reproductive choices and freedom and deal with the real issues that are besetting the church today… one of which its growing irrelevance.
Sorry to disappoint you strawberry muffin but I damn well knew a victim. He didn’t sue-after a short miserable life he simply topped himself. Convenient for you lot who deny anything nasty about yourr pwshus church. Futrhermore take a look at Cormac Murphy O’Connor. promoted to leader of the Catholoc Chuch in England. Promoted after evidence showed he covered up the activities of one Father Michael Hill (who eventrually confesssed to numerous casews of abuse!!!!!!!). Yup the Catholic church protects its own and f*cks the little children!
You are as bad as the perverts you protect. And I truly hope you experience the misery that the victims went through.
Strawberry Muffin: Yes that was the point I was trying to make I was trying to be a smart A$$ for the church. They want us all to have kids and yet they take that “special gift” away from it’s members. It contradicts itself. It is strange the Catholic church refused to marry me and my finace because I didn’t want to have kids and they felt that our marriage wouldn’t be approved in God’s eyes. I think that is a load. They wanted us to have a sponser couple watch our every move before we tied the not. Well lucky for me I’m not a catholic but my fiance is and he is now getting the idea that not everything they say is the truth.
As far as the priests: I think that the few that were child abusers gave a bad name to all the good priests. Most are very nice and intelligent people. Not all of them are perverts. I think that part of it is that people just want to make lawsuits over stuff that they beleived happened to them so that way they could have an excuse for being screwed up.
you know the Pope would have a lot less abortions to be upset about if he would stop being a hypocrite about family planing. it makes me think of the monty python song “every sperm is sacred”. this seems to be so, but if that is the case then the concept of sperm “not going to waste” is more sacred to him then the the ability to support masses of unplanned children. or how about the women who become little more than breeding stock. i wold like to see a image of the virgin marry tired and exhausted from having a hoard of babies after her first. i bet she wouldn’t look so serene then.
strawberry muffin … if you study the political climate in medieval Europe and the Council of Trent you will find that money had a great deal to do with priests not being marred. the scripture that they use to justify this (Matthew 19:12) technically talks about cutting off ones testicles for god, and speaks nothing of marriage( but hay when the subject is losing your balls you can bet the clergy would take a more laxed reading of the text)The religious need follows the political and financial one. if you study cannon texts from before the Council of Trent you will see that marriage was sported(most of the apostles were marred.)
oh and by the way there ar many marred priests in the catholic cherch. eather thay are in the eastern europein sects or They got married while serving as priests in other Christian denominations, usually the Anglican or Lutheran churches, and switched at a later date.
@FedUp: I didn’t say they were ALL lying. I said a good 99% of them were. Your friend is obviously in that 1% that’s being honest. And I’m sorry for your loss.
The fact that you would basically wish sexual assault on me is disgusting and it makes you disgusting. No matter how much I might hate a person, I NEVER, EVER stoop so low as to wish them horrible things. You did not have to take it that far, stupid. Maybe I should change my screenname to FedUpWithA$$hats like you.
@BritGirl: Deepest apologies that this comment board has turned into a war between two posters. I have no argument with you, and I wish things had not gotten this far.
PS:
@FedUp: I’m going to do the civilized thing and put this stupid feud behind me. I don’t hate you and I wish no ill will toward you. I hope you can afford the same to me so that this whole board can get some peace again.
StrawberryM and FedUP WithBP - We all have differing views and opinions about which we feel strongly and I see where both of you are coming from. You’ve both made your points, I know you feel strongly about them and it’s always interesting to hear differing viewpoints from everyone.
However, I’m not having threads becoming battlegrounds or flame wars or name calling. So I’m going to ask that we move off the subject of priests and child abuse and keep to the topic of the article - which is about what the Pope said about people not having enough children and keep it polite and friendly.
Agreed.
Strawberry Muffin I’m sorry. It would have been his 30th birthday today and I’m still finding his loss difficult to deal with. I will certainly put this behind me-please accept my apologies.
I think it’s important to make the distinction between the Catholic view, of which the Pope is the highest representative, and God’s view, for which one should turn to the Bible for the final authority.
Because like all religions, Catholicism is simply an organized way in which some Christians choose to worship God. People have a hard time getting their arms around the idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful Creator, so we create rules and traditions along the way to help us deal comfortably with a concept that would otherwise blow our minds. Environments that work for large numbers of people turn into religions or denominations. Then others who come along can pick the one that feels best for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
However, problems arise when people assume that their religious traditions are right, and that it’s God will for everyone else to fall in line. Please understand - I’m not talking about activities that are specifically pre- or proscribed in the Bible. I’m talking about the add-ons, like fundamentalist Christians believing it’s a sin to drink alcohol, and yes, Catholics believing couples should have as many children as possible. It’s a dangerous, arrogant game for religions to set themselves up as having the corner on God’s will.
So when evaluating the Pope’s speech in Australia, I think we should keep in mind that while he does speak for the Catholic Church, he may or may not be speaking for God. The Bible doesn’t have a chapter on being childfree, so we just have to use the information we have to make the best judgment call we can. I’ve weighed in on the issue in my post “Does a Christian Have A Choice” on the Purple Women & Friends blog. I tend to disagree with a lot of what the Pope has to say, but that too is just an opinion. I don’t have a direct line to God either.
If the Pope’s comments lead you to deem the Catholic religion as invalid, so be it. However, it would be a shame to disregard God himself in the process.
That’s absolutely true. The whole anti-birth-control thing is purely the Vatican, which is probably why most of us ignore it. We know it’s not in the Bible so we don’t feel bad about being “bad.”
@FedUp: Apology accepted. I just lost my grandmother three months ago so I know what you’re going through with the grief.
@Shelley - Personally the Pope’s comments made me think that, once again that he’s out of step with the reality of many people’s lives, particularly where it concerns women and their roles in society.
Maybe Mr. Pope should step up to the plate and start making some babies then…
As a person who was raised outside of any church influence, I find just about everything involved in religion odd. One of the strangest to me is how many “practicing” or “devout” religious people of all stripes are more than willing to pick and choose whatever they like from their particular religious teachings, and yet accuse such people as myself of having no moral compass because I don’t believe in a book. Like uberfundamentalist christians who assert that homosexuality is such a terrible sin, as they say is stated in leviticus, yet they continue to eat shellfish and wear multiple fabrics at the same time, which is also stated as a sin in leviticus. Or who feel that while life is so sacred that abortion is a terrific sin, it’s perfectly alright to shoot a doctor, or electrocute a murderer. Why is this? If the Bible is so sacred, shouldn’t one be following EVERYTHING within the Bible, instead of picking and choosing? If you don’t believe all of it, why practice any of it?
You’re right Feh. If you’re truly going to be a Christian, you don’t have to accept everything in a particular religion, but you DO have to accept everything in the Bible. And to accept the Bible you have to understand it, and to understand it you have to study it. It’s not fair for someone to pull one verse out of context and use it to justify his or her personal point of view. The Old Testament, like Leviticus, can’t be studied without taking the New Testament into account, since it rendered many of the old laws obsolete. It’s so funny - the Bible is a story of religious evolution, but we have people like the Pope who wouldn’t dream of letting a single tradition die. That’s why I think it’s so important to trust but verify - if something in the religious realm seems sketchy to you, do some research. Don’t just believe what someone says (myself included) without seeing if there’s a Biblical base for it. Unfortunately, many times you will find that there isn’t. Stuff like the Pope’s little speech just kills me, because Christ came to bring freedom to all, but religion makes all these unfounded rules that just trap us again.
The subject matter here is the pope’s plea for Roman Catholics to produce offspring. He did not make a plea for atheists, agnostics or those who are followers of any other religion to produce offspring. His plea was directed only towards those who fund the huge and decadent organizational structure referred to as the Roman Catholic church.
The bottom line is that he lacks the credibility of the majority of educated members of the organization that the other old boys selected him to represent. Moreover, his plea demonstrates a deliberate attempt to ignore that fact that it is human populations and their voracious over-consumption of earth’s resources that are leading us to the brink of planetary destruction.
As for the BS being propounded by the fundamentalist about god’s word - get a grip. If there is a god then most certainly he/she/it is not an author of a single book in the book of books. There are many authors and all of them including the women (Ruth and Deborah) were - human beings.
And let’s add to this whole mess the fact that Catholic bishops in Africa have condemned the use of condoms because it’s birth control. Oh yeah, far better to continue the AIDS pandemic than to possible save people’s lives. Irresponsible and out of touch, but none of that surprises me.
Anne-Marie - I wish the Pope could be brought to task for the havoc he’s helped to bring to African countries. Because African bishops of course look to the mother ship for direction… while their communities persish. Condom use that could help stop the spread of HIV/AIDs is condemned. For what? Because of a misguided stupid man-made law about birth control being “bad”. I think of this and wonder how he can sleep at night, thinking this is what God wants. If lives meant anything to him at all he could have shown this in Africa. Instead he’s bleating about making more babies in Europe and encouraging more where none are needed elsewhere. For shame.
Brightfeather - Thanks. And yes, the voracious consumption of the earth’s resources is strangely unoticed by the pope. And I never thought that deeply about the audience - because if you’re not catholic I’m not sure the person even counts.
@ Shelley - I don’t think any of the pope’s listeners is going to do a check and ask if he’s speaking for God or the Catholic church. To them they are one and the same… and regardless, that’s the impression he gives. When he’s telling catholics to get breeding he knows exactly who he’s speaking for - and to.
Mercurior - I would have added something else to your well researched list… but that would take the thread off this topic and I’m not going to do that. But you’re right.
i tried to bring it back on topic, after a slight diversion ;-).. but as you say the church is the pope and the pope is the church to many people
i have not the words sami. you have no comprehension of reality.
Don’t worry mercurior I’m deleting the irrelevant comment ;).