On Men, “Kidults” - And Not Wanting Kids
9 01 2008Must be something in the air, because it’s definitely men’s week this week on Like It Is!
I found the inspiration for this post on in my daily Google Alert. It’s increasingly fascinating what pops up under Childfree these days… all kinds of decidedly not childfree stuff. But, no matter. It’s given me a reason to post (not that I need one). For the record, I did pootle over to Have Children or remain childfree and I tried to leave a comment, but once again, as it’s the un-user-friendly Blogger platform it’s a right old Pain In The Backside. A PITA as Chris W would say.
I have no time to fight with Bloggers comment unfriendliness, so it’s back to here – where I have no such worries and can be a lot more…er shall we say… verbal?
Anyway here is the scoop:
Men – if you’re delaying or prevaricating about having kids you now have a new name. It’s called kiddult. That’s according to the post entitled “What if you want kids and your partner doesn’t?”
Is this deja vu or what? See links at the bottom for a refresher (or a first time read).
After reading the post – and, as I always say go have a read for yourself – this was going to be my comment:
Start comment: “I think it’s rather offensive (not to talk of being untrue and dangerous)to conclude that because a man is reluctant to have children he doesn’t want to “grow up.” Many men simply do not want kids. They may not know how to express this, because of course, it isn’t the “done thing” to say you don’t want them and you like your life as it is. It also is very difficult for many men who do not want to parent to simply come out and say so in the face of the pressure of a partner who is so desperate to re-produce that it overrides any rational thought.
And as a poster said, having kids does not make you an adult - male or female, nor does it make you responsible. Being responsible as adult does not require kids. At all. That is just a myth (which many unfortunates believe) to pressure men into parenting when they do not want to or are not ready to. It is a very outdated myth, a stupid myth and, I might add as damaging as saying to a woman that she needs to have children to be “a woman” or “for her life to have meaning, or to be of value.” That is total rubbish, but it’s what is sold to us, women and men alike.”
End comment.
I thought the following quote in the post was quite ironic. If Mark aware that his career is taking off, and sees that that career might possibly be the engine to finance upcoming house renovation, how then can he be a “kidadult” and irresponsible? Because he isn’t on “kid drive”?? “And isn’t he quite right to fear giving up what he enjoys about his life now?”
Or does his maturity not count unless he is fathering kids?? That isn’t the bit that hit me though…
“Mark has a fear of giving up what he enjoys about his life now. None of his friends have kids yet and he has no role models his age with children. His best friend is talking about having kids but Mark sees it as pressure on him. His career is taking off, we have all these grand plans with the renovation of the house, he is worried that now is not the right time.”
How about giving Mark some credit (nay respect) and accept that in fact “now is not the right time?” And in fact it may never be the right time, because perhaps he doesn’t want them. Or at least he doesn’t want them enough to have them. Which from a childfree perspective is the most responsible thing to do.
Then this:
“When it comes to making the decision to have children or not, the dilemma for women in Janet’s position is that they are in a relationship with a ‘Kidult’ - a man who doesn’t want to grow up, to take on adult responsibilities. As the lines blur between the end of ‘youth’ and beginning of adulthood in our culture now, so it becomes more difficult for Kidults to give up the dream of youth.”
This premise is what I found offensive. It makes me think of the stupid bingoes childfree women get because they don’t want to breed. I think of how we are called selfish by ignorant childed people who think they know us better than we know ourselves, telling us how wonderful having children is and how we will “change our minds.” I think of the last post (below), where it is quite clear that men are not free from the pressure to start re-producing – not by a long shot. Beth, please read those sad, anon posts – because those are the posts of men who, God help them, DID give in to the unfair pressure to have kids – against their better judgement – and are living to regret it. Some will be gone once the kids are older.
But what offended me the most is that the view paints men as shallow, fickle creatures, only interested in staying young, whose only role when they “grow up” is to father and provide for a brood of kids and satisfy the unrelenting tyranny of the biological clock, which seemingly must be obeyed. And who can only grow up by having a child or two. I suppose that part of the “growing up” process is to be forced to work all hours and never do what you want to because you’ve succumbed to living life on another’s terms. Once you have the kids there is no going back. Contrary to our child-centric society, people should think 100 times before blithely popping out kids, simply because you can or because you want to. And if both parents aren’t 100% for it, better not to have them.
Being childfree is a viable, valuable, joyful and much needed option today. The many true childfree blogs and forums, not to speak of those living very happily childfree prove this.
On another note I will say that with some of the examples in the Have children or remain… article it seems clear that not a lot of listening or conversation is going on in the said relationships. Or that some conversations should have been had before marriage and the boundaries defined then. There’s a lot of “I want, I need, I want…” And if a person has no intention of having kids then it is only fair they be honest about it with their partners and let them leave if having a child is more important than the relationship. There are enough posts on this blog to make that point clear. And we know how seriously people take you when you say you don’t want to have kids, don’t we? Sadly though, the signs are there (they are always there) and people willfully ignore them until it is too late.
Men have every right to delay having children until they are ready, or not to have them at all.As much right (and responsibility as women do) Just as it is our right not to breed, it’s men’s also. Often a reluctance to haw kids is exactly that – they don’t want to have kids – and no, they do not want the responsibility, or the burden. Why should they?
Just because a man doesn’t do what his partner wants, when she wants it, does not make him immature or a “kidult”. Given that many men don’t have a clue as to what bringing up children entails and only find out when it’s far too late, on the contrary they are sensible not to have children unless and until they are sure they want them.
Over to you.
Illustrative posts (a sample).
Having Kids Is Overrated, Let’s hear it for the boys
I want a baby but my husband doesn’t
My husband doesn’t want any more children and I do
Technorati Tags: childfree, childfree
Oy.
At least the blogger has explained herself a bit more clearly in a follow up comment, after a protest from another reader. That said, I think men are often bullied into marriage and having children on the premise that they need to “grow up”. There is nothing inherently mature about being married over being in a similar committed relationship, nor is there necessarily more maturity once people have children (trust the teacher on that one!) It certainly gives you added responsibilities, but I think having to pay bills and managing your own adult life does plenty to define adulthood without the condescending attitude of this blog post. What will undoubtedly happen to many of these browbeaten men is that they will be unhappy and resentful, and who wants to raise kids in the middle of a mine field? I totally don’t get that.
That second comment was me. I’ll admit that that post ticked me off. I couldn’t help but comment. I’m getting tired of this ideal that reproducing = mature adult and everyone else is trying to hold on to their childhood. I’m in my early 20s and I know parents twice my age who will never be as mature as I am.
Britgirl said: “…it seems clear that not a lot of listening or conversation is going on in the said relationships.”
“And if a person has no intention of having kids then it is only fair they be honest about it with their partners and let them leave if having a child is more important than the relationship. There are enough posts on this blog to make that point clear. ”
These comments by you, Britgirl, are to me the real crux of the matter. Childfree men (and women) need to grow a pair, state their desires honestly and consistently to our partners. Of course, the first place for honestly is with ourselves and I think a lot of people avoid this, it’s scary to go against the societal norm. However, conforming just for the sake of conforming is depressing and unsatisfying. The real mark of maturity comes in being honest with yourself about what you feel and expressing it to your partner. This allows for that open communication you were talking about. Sadly, it appears that immaturity isn’t confined to these men but to the women who didn’t bother having an open and honest discussion earlier in the relationship.
Yes. Yes yes yes.
This article is so full of win, it’s awesome. Right on, Britgirl!
If we think being a woman is tough - boy, I’d HATE to be a man nowadays.
As an aside- in our headlong feminist rush to prove that we’re as good as any man, and we can “do it all”, we’ve taken all the responsibility off their shoulders, and then we complain that they play video games all day . It makes you wonder if we’ve royally screwed ourselves, doesn’t it?
as one of these kiddults myself.. i am 34, i dont want kids for many reasons, genetic, financial, emotional, medical, and many more.
RMS I see how hard it is for men to say i dont want kids even if we do some of the women dont even listen.. or they will bingo us. or nag us tell us we arent real men if we dont want kids. this is all from the women breeders. how many times have you been bingoed repeatedly by the same person, and even if you answer the same way or different, they never listen to it.. thats what happens around men but at least if you arent in a relationship with them..you can just walk away.)
(i have been on both sides of this.. b4 i knew cf existed i too would have been happy to be bullied into breeding for the instant peace of them not nagging me,)
Kat i am a man, and sometimes i dont want to be a man.. the male world is HARD, no matter what we do we are blamed for something, if we open doors we are called a sexist pig, if we dont then we are bot being considerate to women, if we dont want kids we get told we are wimps, we should suck it up. if we complain about the pro woman, pro child rules and laws we are sexist pigs if we dont we are considered wimps..
we get constantly told we have to be the provider, yet when we are we are told we are just controlling the wallet so put down women. and so on… and a lot of men agree to having children, even if they say it directly to the woman *I* dont want children, it sometimes becomes ah but i thought i would change him. so no wonder so many men are reluctant to speak out. damned if you do damned if you dont
Re: the maturity/parenthood link: I’ve actually noticed the opposite. Having kids doesn’t make people grow up: it makes them STOP growing. All their energies are poured into the kids, so the parents no longer improve themselves, expand their knowledge or abilities, or work to make a difference in the world. They don’t DO ANYTHING except raise kids.
In nature, reproducing makes the parent irrelevant. Now that you have continued your line, the world has no use for you. By not having children, we resist irrelevance and uselessness, and use our time and energy for causes greater than ourselves and our own DNA.
I find this all very amusing. I’m 46, child-free by choice (don’t hate kids, just don’t want them), and I would toss out the idea that pretty much all of us - men, that is - ARE “Kidults” - regardless of whether we’ve successfully sewn our seed or no. I have always said I don’t know why married women complain about not having any children - lady, you’ve got ONE, that’s for sure!
Anyway.
What “E” just posted is so true - clothes don’t make the man, and spawning doesn’t endow maturity. What it can do is seriously motivate you to become more mature, but my observation is most use the pressure of parenthood as an excuse to - gain weight - blame the spouse for that and everything else - cheat - avoid all responsibility - feel the universe is cursing them …. and of course at the same time apply pressure to any single or child -free/-less friends to hop on that kiddie-go-round too. People are messed up - I try really hard to NOT attribute the condescending/patronizing/angry attitude many child-ridden acquaintances have toward po’ childfree me to jealousy, but let’s be honest (they won’t) - it IS jealousy. Jealousy of my free time, my continuing youthful outlook, my well-restedness, my lack of obligations. Theyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy’re jealous.
That long-winded rant would just make them say “see? - that proves it!.” To be honest, I really wish having children did wise up all the mouthbreathers out there reproducing faster than sewer rats, but it’s pretty obvious that doesn’t happen.
Lastly I really wish women would be honest with themselves and their prospective mates about their breeding plans - many men can take it or leave it - after all, most of us have come across single women with the audible tick of a stale-dated womb, looking for a donor and a permanent nest-featherer - if you’ve got baby fever, be up front about it, don’t expect the man to just fall into line later. I told my ex wife as part of proposing marriage (more than half my life ago) that I DID NOT WANT CHILDREN, and if that was a problem for her, she should say “no” - I further said that if she changed her mind years later, she would have to talk me into it, and I warned that I probably wouldn’t be easy to convince; guess why we eventually divorced!
I guess I lack the selfish gene. According to all of them, I’m just selfish. Like I care.
The problem with requesting “honesty” from partners (of either gender) is that they’d first have to think about what it is they actually want, and from my conversations with many breeders (not parents) that process doesn’t even have a chance of happening. They simply believe what other breeders have told them “kids just happen”, “it’s all different when it’s yours”, “you’ll get by”, “you’ve never known love/happiness until you’ve had a child”, etc. etc. On top of that, they see all the positive attention new parents get, and think “well I’d like some of that action”. They never actually think, “Do I want to have a kid around 24-7?”, “Do I actually want to do that kind of work?”. Those questions aren’t encouraged by the majority of mainstream society, because I think folks know if people thought very seriously about them, many fewer children would be born.
I am very glad that someone is keen to write a book about whether to have children or not. Hopefully books like this will make more people realise that becoming parents is a choice, and will hopefully have a flow-on affect of greater acceptance of the decision not to have children.
The author definitely has some more research to do, and needs to address specific issues rather than making overarching statements about things such as ‘maturity’. She seems to have recognised that maturity is a much bigger issue which is unrelated to whether you bear children or not.
However she seems to be trying to portray both choices so that people can make informed decisions, and I think she could write a good book at the end of all her research. I’m looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
Decided “she seems to have recognised that maturity is a much bigger issue which is unrelated to whether you bear children or not.” Indeed - thanks to the input from childfree people who commented.
I agree more research needs to be done - including talking to a greater range and a good many more childfree men and women and really hearing them and get their points of view - not listening to them through a parenting or childed lens. For a blog that’s supposed to be about whether to have children or to remain childfree, I personally saw very little to support the childfree side of the argument.
And while I think communication is important (very) I believe more than that is required - communication is useless if all the while the person set on having kids is thinking “he’ll change his mind later…”
What is also required is an acceptance that it really is OK not to want to have children and that explanations should not be required - or even necessary from the person who doesn’t want them.
As we know many men and women are still demonised if they dare articulate that they’ve no urge to reproduce, which is why so many keep silent and “go with the supposed flow.”
While I realize the author of this blog has since backtracked on her definition of “Kidult,” I read her article before she did so. Atleast she is willing to reconsider how offensive her definition is.
If there is one thing that a mature female friend told me one time that I wish other women would GET is to LISTEN to what a man is telling you AND ALSO to LISTEN to what he is NOT telling you.
If he is NOT telling you about the babies you will have, and he is TELLING you he doesn’t want children, personally, I think those women who refuse to listen to that and think he’ll change his mind or think they can get him to change his mind are the ones who need to grow up. Not those men.
IMO, THOSE women who are so infused with “babies rabies” are the “kidults” as they are UNWILLING to get outside of themselves and take their partner into consideration. Talk about selfish, childish, and immature.
CFSince6 - “f there is one thing that a mature female friend told me one time that I wish other women would GET is to LISTEN to what a man is telling you AND ALSO to LISTEN to what he is NOT telling you.”
Yes. Yes. Yes, Yes, Yes!
As to the article, my personal opinion is that it would have read better to keep the original post as it was (with her comment that acknowledged the backtracking) and publish an edit. One of the things blogs enable is bringing these long held beliefs into the light and having them challenged and/or confronted. It isn’t the first time I’ve come across that particular thought - as Anne-Marie said, many men are bullied into parenting, simply because the woman wants a baby and whether they’re passive about it or not. It puzzles me that it simply never occurs to some that a person might not want children. I’m glad I saw the article before it was revised.
Where in the world do you live HOGTOWN HARRY!!!!? Like your point of view!