Must be something in the air, because it’s definitely men’s week this week on Like It Is!
I found the inspiration for this post on in my daily Google Alert. It’s increasingly fascinating what pops up under Childfree these days… all kinds of decidedly not childfree stuff. But, no matter. It’s given me a reason to post (not that I need one). For the record, I did pootle over to Have Children or remain childfree and I tried to leave a comment, but once again, as it’s the un-user-friendly Blogger platform it’s a right old Pain In The Backside. A PITA as Chris W would say.
I have no time to fight with Bloggers comment unfriendliness, so it’s back to here – where I have no such worries and can be a lot more…er shall we say… verbal?
Anyway here is the scoop:
Men – if you’re delaying or prevaricating about having kids you now have a new name. It’s called kiddult. That’s according to the post entitled “What if you want kids and your partner doesn’t?”
Is this deja vu or what? See links at the bottom for a refresher (or a first time read).
After reading the post – and, as I always say go have a read for yourself – this was going to be my comment:
Start comment: “I think it’s rather offensive (not to talk of being untrue and dangerous)to conclude that because a man is reluctant to have children he doesn’t want to “grow up.” Many men simply do not want kids. They may not know how to express this, because of course, it isn’t the “done thing” to say you don’t want them and you like your life as it is. It also is very difficult for many men who do not want to parent to simply come out and say so in the face of the pressure of a partner who is so desperate to re-produce that it overrides any rational thought.
And as a poster said, having kids does not make you an adult – male or female, nor does it make you responsible. Being responsible as adult does not require kids. At all. That is just a myth (which many unfortunates believe) to pressure men into parenting when they do not want to or are not ready to. It is a very outdated myth, a stupid myth and, I might add as damaging as saying to a woman that she needs to have children to be “a woman” or “for her life to have meaning, or to be of value.” That is total rubbish, but it’s what is sold to us, women and men alike.”
End comment.
I thought the following quote in the post was quite ironic. If Mark aware that his career is taking off, and sees that that career might possibly be the engine to finance upcoming house renovation, how then can he be a “kidadult” and irresponsible? Because he isn’t on “kid drive”?? “And isn’t he quite right to fear giving up what he enjoys about his life now?”
Or does his maturity not count unless he is fathering kids?? That isn’t the bit that hit me though…
“Mark has a fear of giving up what he enjoys about his life now. None of his friends have kids yet and he has no role models his age with children. His best friend is talking about having kids but Mark sees it as pressure on him. His career is taking off, we have all these grand plans with the renovation of the house, he is worried that now is not the right time.”
How about giving Mark some credit (nay respect) and accept that in fact “now is not the right time?” And in fact it may never be the right time, because perhaps he doesn’t want them. Or at least he doesn’t want them enough to have them. Which from a childfree perspective is the most responsible thing to do.
Then this:
“When it comes to making the decision to have children or not, the dilemma for women in Janet’s position is that they are in a relationship with a ‘Kidult’ – a man who doesn’t want to grow up, to take on adult responsibilities. As the lines blur between the end of ‘youth’ and beginning of adulthood in our culture now, so it becomes more difficult for Kidults to give up the dream of youth.”
This premise is what I found offensive. It makes me think of the stupid bingoes childfree women get because they don’t want to breed. I think of how we are called selfish by ignorant childed people who think they know us better than we know ourselves, telling us how wonderful having children is and how we will “change our minds.” I think of the last post (below), where it is quite clear that men are not free from the pressure to start re-producing – not by a long shot. Beth, please read those sad, anon posts – because those are the posts of men who, God help them, DID give in to the unfair pressure to have kids – against their better judgement – and are living to regret it. Some will be gone once the kids are older.
But what offended me the most is that the view paints men as shallow, fickle creatures, only interested in staying young, whose only role when they “grow up” is to father and provide for a brood of kids and satisfy the unrelenting tyranny of the biological clock, which seemingly must be obeyed. And who can only grow up by having a child or two. I suppose that part of the “growing up” process is to be forced to work all hours and never do what you want to because you’ve succumbed to living life on another’s terms. Once you have the kids there is no going back. Contrary to our child-centric society, people should think 100 times before blithely popping out kids, simply because you can or because you want to. And if both parents aren’t 100% for it, better not to have them.
Being childfree is a viable, valuable, joyful and much needed option today. The many true childfree blogs and forums, not to speak of those living very happily childfree prove this.
On another note I will say that with some of the examples in the Have children or remain… article it seems clear that not a lot of listening or conversation is going on in the said relationships. Or that some conversations should have been had before marriage and the boundaries defined then. There’s a lot of “I want, I need, I want…” And if a person has no intention of having kids then it is only fair they be honest about it with their partners and let them leave if having a child is more important than the relationship. There are enough posts on this blog to make that point clear. And we know how seriously people take you when you say you don’t want to have kids, don’t we? Sadly though, the signs are there (they are always there) and people willfully ignore them until it is too late.
Men have every right to delay having children until they are ready, or not to have them at all.As much right (and responsibility as women do) Just as it is our right not to breed, it’s men’s also. Often a reluctance to haw kids is exactly that – they don’t want to have kids – and no, they do not want the responsibility, or the burden. Why should they?
Just because a man doesn’t do what his partner wants, when she wants it, does not make him immature or a “kidult”. Given that many men don’t have a clue as to what bringing up children entails and only find out when it’s far too late, on the contrary they are sensible not to have children unless and until they are sure they want them.
Over to you.
Illustrative posts (a sample).
Having Kids Is Overrated, Let’s hear it for the boys
I want a baby but my husband doesn’t
{ 102 comments… read them below or add one }
Oy.
At least the blogger has explained herself a bit more clearly in a follow up comment, after a protest from another reader. That said, I think men are often bullied into marriage and having children on the premise that they need to “grow up”. There is nothing inherently mature about being married over being in a similar committed relationship, nor is there necessarily more maturity once people have children (trust the teacher on that one!) It certainly gives you added responsibilities, but I think having to pay bills and managing your own adult life does plenty to define adulthood without the condescending attitude of this blog post. What will undoubtedly happen to many of these browbeaten men is that they will be unhappy and resentful, and who wants to raise kids in the middle of a mine field? I totally don’t get that.
That second comment was me. I’ll admit that that post ticked me off. I couldn’t help but comment. I’m getting tired of this ideal that reproducing = mature adult and everyone else is trying to hold on to their childhood. I’m in my early 20s and I know parents twice my age who will never be as mature as I am.
Britgirl said: “…it seems clear that not a lot of listening or conversation is going on in the said relationships.”
“And if a person has no intention of having kids then it is only fair they be honest about it with their partners and let them leave if having a child is more important than the relationship. There are enough posts on this blog to make that point clear. ”
These comments by you, Britgirl, are to me the real crux of the matter. Childfree men (and women) need to grow a pair, state their desires honestly and consistently to our partners. Of course, the first place for honestly is with ourselves and I think a lot of people avoid this, it’s scary to go against the societal norm. However, conforming just for the sake of conforming is depressing and unsatisfying. The real mark of maturity comes in being honest with yourself about what you feel and expressing it to your partner. This allows for that open communication you were talking about. Sadly, it appears that immaturity isn’t confined to these men but to the women who didn’t bother having an open and honest discussion earlier in the relationship.
Yes. Yes yes yes.
This article is so full of win, it’s awesome. Right on, Britgirl!
If we think being a woman is tough – boy, I’d HATE to be a man nowadays.
As an aside- in our headlong feminist rush to prove that we’re as good as any man, and we can “do it all”, we’ve taken all the responsibility off their shoulders, and then we complain that they play video games all day . It makes you wonder if we’ve royally screwed ourselves, doesn’t it?
as one of these kiddults myself.. i am 34, i dont want kids for many reasons, genetic, financial, emotional, medical, and many more.
RMS I see how hard it is for men to say i dont want kids even if we do some of the women dont even listen.. or they will bingo us. or nag us tell us we arent real men if we dont want kids. this is all from the women breeders. how many times have you been bingoed repeatedly by the same person, and even if you answer the same way or different, they never listen to it.. thats what happens around men but at least if you arent in a relationship with them..you can just walk away.)
(i have been on both sides of this.. b4 i knew cf existed i too would have been happy to be bullied into breeding for the instant peace of them not nagging me,)
Kat i am a man, and sometimes i dont want to be a man.. the male world is HARD, no matter what we do we are blamed for something, if we open doors we are called a sexist pig, if we dont then we are bot being considerate to women, if we dont want kids we get told we are wimps, we should suck it up. if we complain about the pro woman, pro child rules and laws we are sexist pigs if we dont we are considered wimps..
we get constantly told we have to be the provider, yet when we are we are told we are just controlling the wallet so put down women. and so on… and a lot of men agree to having children, even if they say it directly to the woman *I* dont want children, it sometimes becomes ah but i thought i would change him. so no wonder so many men are reluctant to speak out. damned if you do damned if you dont
Re: the maturity/parenthood link: I’ve actually noticed the opposite. Having kids doesn’t make people grow up: it makes them STOP growing. All their energies are poured into the kids, so the parents no longer improve themselves, expand their knowledge or abilities, or work to make a difference in the world. They don’t DO ANYTHING except raise kids.
In nature, reproducing makes the parent irrelevant. Now that you have continued your line, the world has no use for you. By not having children, we resist irrelevance and uselessness, and use our time and energy for causes greater than ourselves and our own DNA.
I find this all very amusing. I’m 46, child-free by choice (don’t hate kids, just don’t want them), and I would toss out the idea that pretty much all of us – men, that is – ARE “Kidults” – regardless of whether we’ve successfully sewn our seed or no. I have always said I don’t know why married women complain about not having any children – lady, you’ve got ONE, that’s for sure!
Anyway.
What “E” just posted is so true – clothes don’t make the man, and spawning doesn’t endow maturity. What it can do is seriously motivate you to become more mature, but my observation is most use the pressure of parenthood as an excuse to – gain weight – blame the spouse for that and everything else – cheat – avoid all responsibility – feel the universe is cursing them …. and of course at the same time apply pressure to any single or child -free/-less friends to hop on that kiddie-go-round too. People are messed up – I try really hard to NOT attribute the condescending/patronizing/angry attitude many child-ridden acquaintances have toward po’ childfree me to jealousy, but let’s be honest (they won’t) – it IS jealousy. Jealousy of my free time, my continuing youthful outlook, my well-restedness, my lack of obligations. Theyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy’re jealous.
That long-winded rant would just make them say “see? – that proves it!.” To be honest, I really wish having children did wise up all the mouthbreathers out there reproducing faster than sewer rats, but it’s pretty obvious that doesn’t happen.
Lastly I really wish women would be honest with themselves and their prospective mates about their breeding plans – many men can take it or leave it – after all, most of us have come across single women with the audible tick of a stale-dated womb, looking for a donor and a permanent nest-featherer – if you’ve got baby fever, be up front about it, don’t expect the man to just fall into line later. I told my ex wife as part of proposing marriage (more than half my life ago) that I DID NOT WANT CHILDREN, and if that was a problem for her, she should say “no” – I further said that if she changed her mind years later, she would have to talk me into it, and I warned that I probably wouldn’t be easy to convince; guess why we eventually divorced!
I guess I lack the selfish gene. According to all of them, I’m just selfish. Like I care.
The problem with requesting “honesty” from partners (of either gender) is that they’d first have to think about what it is they actually want, and from my conversations with many breeders (not parents) that process doesn’t even have a chance of happening. They simply believe what other breeders have told them “kids just happen”, “it’s all different when it’s yours”, “you’ll get by”, “you’ve never known love/happiness until you’ve had a child”, etc. etc. On top of that, they see all the positive attention new parents get, and think “well I’d like some of that action”. They never actually think, “Do I want to have a kid around 24-7?”, “Do I actually want to do that kind of work?”. Those questions aren’t encouraged by the majority of mainstream society, because I think folks know if people thought very seriously about them, many fewer children would be born.
I am very glad that someone is keen to write a book about whether to have children or not. Hopefully books like this will make more people realise that becoming parents is a choice, and will hopefully have a flow-on affect of greater acceptance of the decision not to have children.
The author definitely has some more research to do, and needs to address specific issues rather than making overarching statements about things such as ‘maturity’. She seems to have recognised that maturity is a much bigger issue which is unrelated to whether you bear children or not.
However she seems to be trying to portray both choices so that people can make informed decisions, and I think she could write a good book at the end of all her research. I’m looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
Decided “she seems to have recognised that maturity is a much bigger issue which is unrelated to whether you bear children or not.” Indeed – thanks to the input from childfree people who commented.
I agree more research needs to be done – including talking to a greater range and a good many more childfree men and women and really hearing them and get their points of view – not listening to them through a parenting or childed lens. For a blog that’s supposed to be about whether to have children or to remain childfree, I personally saw very little to support the childfree side of the argument.
And while I think communication is important (very) I believe more than that is required – communication is useless if all the while the person set on having kids is thinking “he’ll change his mind later…”
What is also required is an acceptance that it really is OK not to want to have children and that explanations should not be required – or even necessary from the person who doesn’t want them.
As we know many men and women are still demonised if they dare articulate that they’ve no urge to reproduce, which is why so many keep silent and “go with the supposed flow.”
While I realize the author of this blog has since backtracked on her definition of “Kidult,” I read her article before she did so. Atleast she is willing to reconsider how offensive her definition is.
If there is one thing that a mature female friend told me one time that I wish other women would GET is to LISTEN to what a man is telling you AND ALSO to LISTEN to what he is NOT telling you.
If he is NOT telling you about the babies you will have, and he is TELLING you he doesn’t want children, personally, I think those women who refuse to listen to that and think he’ll change his mind or think they can get him to change his mind are the ones who need to grow up. Not those men.
IMO, THOSE women who are so infused with “babies rabies” are the “kidults” as they are UNWILLING to get outside of themselves and take their partner into consideration. Talk about selfish, childish, and immature.
CFSince6 – “f there is one thing that a mature female friend told me one time that I wish other women would GET is to LISTEN to what a man is telling you AND ALSO to LISTEN to what he is NOT telling you.”
Yes. Yes. Yes, Yes, Yes!
As to the article, my personal opinion is that it would have read better to keep the original post as it was (with her comment that acknowledged the backtracking) and publish an edit. One of the things blogs enable is bringing these long held beliefs into the light and having them challenged and/or confronted. It isn’t the first time I’ve come across that particular thought – as Anne-Marie said, many men are bullied into parenting, simply because the woman wants a baby and whether they’re passive about it or not. It puzzles me that it simply never occurs to some that a person might not want children. I’m glad I saw the article before it was revised.
Where in the world do you live HOGTOWN HARRY!!!!? Like your point of view!
Women are biologically programmed to want children. With so many men opting out of the whole child thing now, what exactly are we supposed to do? And men equivocqate about having children so the woman will stick around so that they can get laid. Most marraiges will not last a lifetime and it’s not like men are terribly great company, anyway. Sacrifice having a child for my marrraige? Hell, no. Having my son was the best thing that’s ever happened to me and that I’ve ever done, and I’m a professional, accomplished woman. I would glady sacrifice myself or my husband in a hot second for my son (and my husband would sacrifice himself, but not me, b/c then he’d have to take care of him
. I didn’t even know what love was or what life was about until I had him. I hope you and your husband’s DVD collection is very fulfilling.
Nice bit of sarcasm above from “Shameless Breeder”, very mature. I’m sure her husband appreciates being told that he’s not terribly good company, that he, being merely a dull man, only stayed with her to “get laid” and that their marriage will probably not go the distance (she points out that statistically it’s unlikely). Poor chap, I have every sympathy. I only hope that her son grows up with the ability to join a polite discussion generalising with such shameful sexism.
Anyway, I’m a 30 year old man, I’m in the position of being with the most wonderful woman I’ve ever met but recently the children issue has reared it’s ugly head and our aspirations differ totally. From the first date 16 months back I told her that I never wanted children and although she seemed to initially accept it, she’s recently changed her mind. I suspect that in reality she hoped that I’d change my mind all along. I have my own home, a career and lots of ambitions far removed from being a father (that incidentally, SB, extend to more deep and meaningful things than a large DVD collection), I consider myself a mature and responsible adult. I like kids and I’m good with them, in the past I’ve had a relationship with a woman with two children from a previous marriage and the kids loved me. I liked them too but the crux of it was that I genuinely found that entertaining said children bored me even though I was good at it. It’s the same with my neice and nephews; I simply prefer the company of adults. We split on good terms and she’s since met someone else with a child of his own and they plan to marry. I’m delighted for her.
My current partner and I were discussing moving in together on the premise that I rent out my property, the idea was that my property would serve as a useful investment whilst paying for itself and providing a profit and that we’d invest the saved money into making her house fantastic, enjoying good quality holidays together and so that I could invest some of my money in achieving my lifelong amitions. Sadly, the thought of moving in together and the extra money we’d have has ignited the desire in my partner to have a child. Now, instead of happliy planning for all of the above pursuits, we’re actively questioning whether or not we belong together and this causes a lot of sadness because we’re very much in love. I’ve given her all of the practical reasons for remaining childfree, she doesn’t want to think practically, in fact, she states it’s not the way women think, she refers to the same ‘biological programming’ mentioned above. I wouldn’t for one second denegrate anybody for choosing parenthood, I accept that it’s not easy and very expensive (avg. price in UK for raising 1 child is £180k), I also accept that for some people there is nothing that compares to it for the satisfaction gained. But I’m not one of those people. The premise that making the decision to remain childfree is immature, to me, is ridiculous. In fact, it’s not an easy decision to come to, we’re all brought up to believe that the ‘natural course of events’ is to have kids, our parents did it, therefore so should we.
Many of the professional men whom are my friends agree, we understand that our legal rights are severely compromised by having children, some of them have lost their homes, contact with their children and a substantial percentage of their incomes based on slanderous, unsustainable allegations made in court by the mothers of their children. In the most extreme case, a colleague committed suicide on discovering his wife’s infidelity and plans to deny him access to his daughter. This same colleague had previously described my intention to remain childfree as “very sad”.
I’m in a quandry now, lose the woman that I love dearly or compromise to the extent that I would be in serious jeopardy of ending up resenting her for the life I ended up with. She is in the same situation and neither of us know how to deal with this, already the pressure is making me feel forced and wary of getting any closer to her and the only advice anyone can offer is to coldly walk away… A decision that, following previous terrible relationships we’re both loathe to do as we both see each other as the best thing that’s happened to either of us. I guess there is no easy answer but I would hotly contest that either of us is immature or foolhardy.
Just FYI to consider: if you have a child with her, you will still lose the woman you love. She will stop being interesting, fun, sexy, and everything else you like about her. She will become a frantic, tired, tense and pissy version of the woman you love, plus 20 pounds. And you will have a screeching child that drains your wallet to add to the mix. It sounds cold to walk away, but this woman will change into someone else when she has a child, and you will not want to be with a mother that sorta kinda looks like this woman you used to adore. You will want to leave and then probably will, but will be stuck with a child you never wanted. She is not who you thought and she wants a completely different future. Frankly, if you are peers and she “changed her mind,” I’d be highly skeptical. Much more likely she has been lying and misrepresenting herself on this and lots of other matters to get you to like her. The real her is now slowly coming out. And if she has a child, you will see the very real her, and it won’t be what you want to see.
Hi UK,
I’m going through the exact and I mean the exact same situation as you. I love my wife more then anything else. We’ve been together for over 10 years which includes being together high school. Sadly, we never talked about having children. She never brought it up and neither did I. A big mistake looking back. I just never really thought of having children. All I know I wanted was to have a home, a wife and a dog.
She is my best friend and we both have years, money and time invested. If we were to seperate I honestly would be homeless as I can’t afford our home without her help. I love her, but I have no feelings toward kids whatsoever, plus I’ve done the math and there is no way we could afford a child. I make 12,000 a year and she makes around 15,000 a year.
I don’t know what to do and need some serious advice. If I stick to my not waiting to have kids it could end our relationship which would kill me. She means everything to me, but if I gave in and had kids I would live the rest of my life being unhappy. Putting on a fake smile and who knows what that added pressure of debit, stress and unhappiness can do to a marriage.
I’ve been crying almost every day trying to figure this out, but sadly I just can’t see a situation here. I know it’s been a while since you posted this update, but would love to know how things ended up for you and your women.
Thank You
John
This discussion provokes feelings of great sadness for me…..speaking as someone who is currently right in the middle of this heart-rending discussions with my partner.
She (32) is desperate to start having kids (we’ve been together for 3 years) and I (38) really do not feel that it is something for me. She argues that most men don’t want kids but feel differently when they’re born and that it’s ‘normal’ to not want kids.
But I really feel that for me to start a family, I have to want to do this myself, not simply go along with it to keep her happy. What makes it worse is that she gets so upset when I say I don’t feel like kids and says that she couldn’t consider a life without kids that I start thinking that I should do this…..because I hate seeing her in such distress. But then I still come back to……I have to feel I want to be a dad myself….and deep down I don’t want to…..and not sure if this will change.
For me the decision I’m grappling with is should I start a family simply to avoid risking someone I love and enjoy being with, to keep her happy (regardless of my feelings about this), to meet the expectations of friends (who have started their own families) and family and for the FEAR of being old & alone (a fate of which my girlfriend likes to remind me).
Add to this the self-doubting thougths I have of…what is wrong with me, am I weird, emotionally retarded, generally messed up in my head etc etc because I don’t want kinds, and the looks and comments I get if I’m honest about this….it’s enough to threaten my sanity…
The most depressing thing about the debate is the pressure and bad feeling that society seems to reserve for those poeple who say they don’t want kids. The ‘labelling’ that seems to accompany men & women who don’t feel they want to have children is very saddening.
Right now it seems to me that the ability to be ‘authentic’ with your partner despite the emotional turmoil this might cause is not an immature way to behave….creating a life simply to avoid the consequences of not doing so doesn’t feel right to me.
Anyone (on both sides) of this debate has my sympathy……. I won’t label you whichever side you’re on …. but I will respect you feelings though…and I hope you can respect mine.
James:
Having a child to keep your partner happy is a recipe for disaster — I’ve seen it in too many couples. The stresses of parenting are hard enough on a couple, let alone for a partner who doesn’t even really want to be doing it.
The worry of being “old and alone” really doesn’t hold much water, either. Most children don’t physically take care of elderly parents these days, anyway. The way I look at it is:
1) Not having kids brings less stress to my life, and reduces risks to my health (such as high blood pressure and lack of proper sleep and rest) related to such stress, so I stand a better chance of being healthy and active at an older age, and not *needing* someone to care for me.
2) I have more time and energy to form real friendships with people of all ages (instead of just hanging out with people I don’t really like just because our kids are friends) and I can have a good social network of friends and relatives to help me when I’m in need, and vice versa.
3) I can invest money I’d be spending on kids into long-term care insurance and other savings instruments, so I can afford good elder care if the need arises.
Don’t buy into the “bingoes”, man — it’s not worth it.
Hope you’ll keep us posted on how it’s going with your situation.
Hi – Many thanks for the resposne. Will definitely keep you posted.
What are the ‘bingoes’ by the way? I’ve seen this mentioned a lot on this page but not sure what it means?
J
Hi James,
You may have seen those “buzzword bingo” cards that make fun of corporate-speak and have squares with overused buzzwords on them, like “teamwork”, “facilitate”, etc…the idea being to cover a square every time you hear one of these in a meeting.
Childfree “bingoes” are the same kind of thing — hackneyed phrases that parents say over and over again to the point of being meaningless.
To quote just a few of the many:
“It’s all worth it”
“You don’t know what you’re missing”
“Who’s going to take care of you when you’re old?”
“Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?”
“You’ll love it once it’s here”
If you do a google search on “childfree bingo” it should turn up a slew of pages with lists of them.
Hi,
I just want to leave my opinion as some one who has kids. After reading the blogs and comments posted by the men in the article I think it’s not really a question of immaturity, but rather a lack of understanding of the old roles that once were in place. Men no longer approach relationships from a traditional male role and women no longer take a traditional female role nor are they expected to. Relationships have become more androgenous and rearing children is difficult to do when there aren’t clearly defined roles taken by the mother and father. I know that some of the posts were from stay-at-home-moms or stay-at-home-dads, but staying at home does not mean you’re necessarily taking a traditional female role. Just as going to work doesn’t mean you’re assuming a traditionally male role. In the home, most men don’t assume the “Head-of-household” position and most women don’t or will not defer to their husbands wishes. A good many of the posters’ biggest complaint about having children was that when they returned home from work they didn’t like what the home life was like (kids screaming, wife nagging/complaining). In traditional society this was not the norm, a wife was expected to have all that taken care of before the husband came home and would not trouble him with such petty domestic affairs. If she didn’t have stuff together, the husband would repremand her for not being a good wife/mother. Men weren’t expected to be bothered in such a way. Women were expected to keep and run the home smoothly. Being a stay-at-home-mom is a managment position in which you have to delegate work, manage resources, plan, etc. Most women don’t take the job seriously enough and are basically unqualified for the position. Women today aren’t taught and don’t have the first clue on how to run a home and discipline they’re children. When a man looked for a wife, he looked for these skills in his future wife to be. On the other side of the coin, men were expected to be the “head-of-household” or CEO of the operation. He was expected to be a “man” and make sure his house was being run properly and to his liking. If things were as he wanted them, he did what he had to to make sure things returned to order (tell his wife to get her act together or else) (No, I don’t mean spousal abuse). These types of roles just aren’t “PC” any longer and I’m sure people will go nuts that I’m writing these things, but they’re necessary if you want a nice home life and family. I wouldn’t expect anyone to want to have children if they don’t have the skills that it takes to be profficient for these “jobs”. I think that deciding not to have kids in today’s world is fine, because the art of running a family by both men and women has been lost.
Stacy – what a wonderfully 21st century take on the bingo.
“The art of running a family by both men and women has been lost”, has it? No, it’s just that people (men AND women) have woken up and realised that roles previously indoctrinated by society and biology are not the steadfasts that the patriarchy demanded they be.
I am CF but personally, I think I would be a wonderful parent – I am organised, resourceful, compassionate, caring, intelligent, well educated and packing a pretty good genetic load, if I say so myself.
However, I have chosen not to have children because, from my point of view, the negatives wildly outweigh the positives (and also because I don’t like children anyway!).
I’m constantly amazed by the number of people who ‘fall into’ parenthood because it’s ‘the thing to do’ – hell, I wouldn’t buy a household cleaner without putting more time and thought into its purchase than many parents appear to put into starting a family.
Just because women have a womb and are able to have babies (and, conversely I suppose, men tend to have bigger hands and are good at lifting heavy things?) doesn’t mean it’s what should be done.
CF people, in my experience, tend to be very mature, rational people, prone to introspection and capable of delivering reasoned arguments – about as far removed from ‘kidults’ as possible.
Oh, and by the way, for all those people who claim that reproducing makes you a happier, better rounded, more compassionate, loving ‘adult’ – why not tell that to the Dalai Llama, huh?!
@ Stacy:
May I point out that most CF people have a family, it just doesn’t include children. And also that CF people also run homes and have to manage their households, the only difference from yours is that the households don’t have children in them, though they may include extended family, parents and friends.
I learned early on from my parents and grandparents about how to run a household – how to shop wisely, how to cook and clean, how to do household repairs, how to pay bills and budget. These are useful life skills for everyone. Furthermore, having learned from my grandfather how to garden, mend electrical appliances and do simple plumbing has liberated me from needing a man about the house. My partnerships are through choice, not necessity. Likewise, my partner is a perfectly capable human being and thankfully values me for more than my abilities with a duster or muffin tin.
The old roles made people miserable, especially women. There’s nothing wrong with running your home competently, but why on earth should it be divided by outdated gender roles? The childed don’t have a monopoly on household management skills. I’m not childfree because I’m not capable of dealing with a household or disciplining children or because I’m lazy, I’m childfree because that is my considered personal choice. And if any man attempted to act like a “CEO” around me, he’d be on the receiving end of my personal choice to kick him out.
I seem to have found the only man in the world who DOES want kids. I WISH he was a kiddult. (Actually, I think he is, I think he thinks kids are just one Kodak moment after another.)
You think if I print out this whole blog and give it to him, he will come to his senses? :p
James, and UkEngineer, I really feel for you. It’s awful to finally find someone so right for you and then to have this dealbreaker rear its head, when it’s pretty much the only issue that can’t be compromised on by either party. There just is no mid-way with this.
Best of luck, to all of us who are in these great relationships with great people who just have that one little glitch…
Hey Serrin,
Thanks for the thoughts and kind words – the stress continues and the pressure mounts….but I’m still not saying what she wants me to say. What makes it harder is that I can see how this upsets her (and I don’t really like upsetting people) but I can’t take a step as big as this unless I really want to – even the fear of losing my relationship isn’t sufficient to make me do something that doesn’t feel ‘true’.
Will keep you posted but not sure how much longer this can run for – something’s going to give eventually and I think it’s getting close now….(sighs).
I can’t understand leaving a partner because the partner doesn’t want kids. To quote a football philosophy, don’t take points off the scoreboard. Why sacrifice a great relationship you know you *already* have, for the possibility of having children, who may not even make your life that good anyway?
As a man, it kind of makes me feel like I’m only as good as the offspring I might father, not valuable or worthwhile in my own right.
You just summed up how I’m feeling – whenever we have ‘the chat’ about this my girlf tells me how important having kids is and how happy it will make her and this and that and then right at the end she says…with you! I feel like I’m the accessory to her fantasy….simpy the guy in the frame at the time. It does hurt to think that I’m not enough and that her love comes with a condition (although she will not agree with this). If this pans out like I think it’s going to I’m going to make sure this is dicussed on date #1 in future (or maybe #2).
I agree that the situation you guys are facing is awful, sad, and could have been completely avoidable had your partners been honest with themselves and with you about what they really wanted – which was to have children.
But to be fair, it’s not just men who have to deal with this kind of pressure from partners. Women get it too (and sometimes I think it’s worse since women are EXPECTED to desire motherhood, while ambivalence is more culturally tolerated in men – I’m not saying this is ALWAYS the case, though, since you guys are walking examples of the pressure men can come under to procreate). I’ve always been ambivalent about having kids, and the older I get, the more sure I am that becoming a mother is an experience I can live without having. I’ve been through enough to know that the amount of care, attention and finances having a child would require is not something I want to put myself through voluntarily. My husband, on the other hand, is definitely starting to hear that tick-tock tick-tock of his biological clock. He knew I was ambivalent when he married me, so he knew what he was risking. It hasn’t gotten to the “it’s either have kids or I’m leaving” stage, but I can easily see it going there, since right now it’s like he’s just waiting for me to eventually “grow up and come to my senses.” Not going to happen, I’m HAPPY the way I am and feel no need to sacrifice any of that on the altar of parenthood. Am I supposed to give into pressure just to make him happy? What does that make me, nothing but a walking baby incubator? I’d hate to think that he really does want to trade the independent, active person I am now for a more “domesticated” version of myself.
Fuck kids. And fuck the people who have them at a young age and have nothing to give their kids to aspire to.
funk kids. and funk the young people who have them and then do not even finish high school
I am a father with 3 kids. 2 were planned(by my wife).I do love my kids but would go back to not having them ina minute. Our marriage has suffered and our finances have suffered. I get to be treated like a 4th kds with my wife telling me what I can buy and not buy. Its a life to avoid. Just being honest.
@ 3kids -Thank you for sharing that with us.
I’m in the same position with a lot of you guys. I told my wife early in our dating days that I never wanted kids. At the time, her only comment was “I don’t want to put my body through that”. Naturally, I assumed we were in agreement. Then, a couple years into our marriage, we bought a house. Then, she hit 30. Then all of her friends started saying things to her, as well as our 60-something neighbor that knows all.
So now, 6 years into our marraige after subtlely trying to point out that I don’t want them every time she says “when we have a kid”, I dropped the subtlety and flat out told her in no uncertain terms “NO!”. Naturally, she was devastated, telling me that her biological clock changed her mind, she assumed I was going through a phase when I told her no at the beginning, and that I needed to grow up and stop being selfish. Along with the typical “most men don’t want kids, but then when they have them everything is so wonderful they can’t even imagine it, like 10 nieces and nephews, one that I lived in the same house with for the first year, haven’t prepared me for how different I’ll feel when it’s my own.
It sucks because we really are best friends and outside of this have not had any serious conflict that wasn’t quickly resolved in over 6 years of marraige. Long story short(sort of), I’m being dragged to counseling to save my marraige. If that is her sincere motive, I’m fine with the idea, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it is to get a 2-on-1 gang up telling me how I need to mature.
Sorry for the rant, but it’s nice to know there are others out there. Wish me luck.
Josh – I feel for you. Thanks for sharing and on here ranting is encouraged
It doesn’t strike me that your marriage needs saving, except perhaps from her point of view if she feels it can only survive if you have a kid. I think you can be pretty sure any counselling is going to be loaded on the side of your choice is “wrong” hers is “right” and therefore you need counseling to come over to her way of thinking.. aka. “I want a kid.” Stick to your guns… I think you’re not far off on the suspicion that it’s going to be that 2-on-1 gang up but it would be nice to be wrong. I wish you the the best… it can’t be easy.
Thanks for the welcome and providing a place to get this off my chest, No, it is not easy. I’ve never been under this kind of stress in my life. I have constant headaches, don’t sleep, can’t enjoy anything really. It’s like we already have one, which might just be her plan for all I know. Anyway, another night, another fight that pretty much confirmed my suspicions. The topic of which counselor to go to came up as a few different ones have been recommended to us. I made a joke about the marraige counseling scene in Old School, if you’re familiar with that one, at which point she warned me to take it seriously as it’s not something to have a sense of humor about. I replied that I would, so long as it was more useful than being told that giving my wife a kid is my duty as a man and I need to grow up. I’m sure you already know how the rest of it went. So, not looking good right now. Something tells me I have a very long weekend ahead of me.
Speaking to James and Josh and others in their position:
I feel for you, and I have been there. Stay strong and do not do something you do not want to. You will regret it for the rest of your entire life. There is a good chance you will not be on board as fathers or husbands, will resent you wife/girl and the kid of kids. She will be angry with you, want to know what is wrong with you for not getting on board, fully involved – and in most cases the whole mess swirls in a ghastly downward spiral to unhappiness acrimony and divorce.
I gave in after 6 years of insistent persuasion, and amazingly creative pressure. And yes, I adore my son. I did sit down and consider whether I could hack what it would be like. I decided I thought I could. If someone had told me what it really means, I would have performed a vasectomy on myself. For two years, I was so tired I could not think straight, could not even behave like a fully funtional human. I just shambled through life. Nobody can explain what it does to your feelings about yourself that you are there, in that situation, when you did not want to be. Crushing guilt is omnipresent. I was brought up to try and be kind, to care and to protect the vulnerable and innocent, particularly children, at all costs. How can I not want this, not that it is my life? What is wrong with me? We are almost certainly damaging our son through the atmosphere in our home. How can I do that to him?
For me it comes down to this. You have a basic human right to individual freedom and choice. She must respect that basic right. To choose not to have a child is a mature and responsible choice. To choose to wait until you are certain is also mature and responsible.
My love for my wife changed irrevocably with the change in our life. She discounted my essential freedom as a human being, with deliberate intent and over a period of years. To get what she wanted. I harbour an immense resentment towards her because of this. I no longer accept anything she says at face value, but analyse everything for signs of manipulation. We do not laugh much anymore. I do not desire her anymore.
I do not understand why women who do this to their men do not think of this eventuality. that at the end of this road lies unhappiness for all parties. Why this ghastly and corrosive arrogance that they have the right to do this? How can someone be this immensely selfish that they can deliberately erode someone’s free will?
Enough.
Good luck, gentlemen. Be true to yourselves and what you really want.
Thans for this. My partner wants to have children and I KNOW I would end up feeling the same way you do. He tells me I must have something wrong with me… but at the end of the day HE is the one who’s life is not complete without kids.
In some ways it sounds petty and silly, but part of me feels like 2-3 people who don’t even exist yet are more important to him than I am, and more capable of fulfilling him. I feel like the most importanting aspect of me, for him, is not my mind or my kindness or my sense of humour, but my uterus.
It’s hearing stories like yours that will give me the strength to leave him if he ever starts to actively pressure me. At the moment we just talk about it and discuss it openly and honestly…but who knows where it will lead.
At least, as the woman, I can’t be oopsed!
Lisa – Thanks for posting. It really helps to know that there are other women who are facing the same dilemma with their partners because they’re the ones who don’t want kids and are facing pressure, rather than the husbands. When I was younger, I just assumed I was going to have kids – 2 probably, even had names all picked out – because that’s just what you did when you grew up. I’m female, I’m supposed to want to have babies, right? But then I kept moving the age that I wanted to have kids back farther and farther to the point where I suddenly realized that if I REALLY wanted kids, I wouldn’t be putting it off because I wanted more time to do X or experience Y. I always made sure to talk about how I felt about this with my husband, and I thought he understood and was ok with it, but lately as he’s been getting older, he’s been feeling MORE of a pull to have kids. I really hope this won’t turn into a deal breaker and I hate feeling like maybe I misled him into thinking I wanted something I didn’t, but at the time, I really wasn’t sure and I have the right to change my mind as long as I talk to him about how I’m feeling, right? How do you manage it?
I was the same, I always thought “I’ll have kids in ten years at the EARLIEST”, and when I got to my mid twenties, I realised that 10+ years was getting a bit late…and I started feeling panicky – not that I would miss out on having kids if I didn’t do it soon, but that I would miss out on LIFE if I had to have kids in only ten years!
Then a friend said “you don’t actually ever have to have them, you know” and I feel so relieved.
Luckily, I have known this for several years before I met my partner, and very early on I told him how I feel about children. We decided just to go with the flow and have fun for a while. I think both of us assumed that our relationship would fall apart after a few months over something else – because that’s been both our past experiences! But unfortunately we seem to be perfectly matched except for this.
I’m resigned to that fact that it’ll have to end, but I just can’t walk away from a relationship that is making me so happy. I’ve been honest with him and I truly believe that he isn’t deluding himself – he seems to understand that I won’t change, so he’s not just holding out for some miracle when I hit a certain age.
But I still feel guilty all the time, thinking “maybe that woman over there is perfect for him and she wants kids, but he’s wasting his time with me”…but then I think he’s old enough to make his own decisions, as am I.
Every couple of months I seriously consider ending it, but then we talk and he says he doesn’t want to break up, and maybe he can accept not having kids… but I know how awful I’d feel if we DID have them – is that how he’ll feel if we don’t? Can I do that to someone I love? But then I can’t make the choice for him, either way.
Oh, it’s confusing. It’s so hard to walk away from someone who isn’t saying “ok” but isn’t really saying “no” – whether’s it’s ok to having kids or ok to not having them!
That’s why blogs like this are great support networks. Most people I know just say “well you’ll change your mind anyway so why are you even worrying about it”. heh.
Hi Josh,
If I were you, I might insist on using condoms from now on. I glean from what you’ve said thus far that your wife may try to “oops” you into parenthood.
Patrick, thanks for the story and advice. What you described is exactly what I fear will happen to me if I cave. It helps to know to some degree of certainty, that nothing she can do to me now for not giving in can possibly hurt as bad and permanently as giving in will.
Xena, I’m not really that concerned about an “oops” as she’s on the patch and not the pill, so that seems a bit harder to fool me on, but who knows. Plus, I just can’t see us doing too much of that with things in this bad of a state.
My worst suspicions are already coming true though. In scheduling the appointment with the counselor, she briefly expained the situation. His response to her was “Oh, we’ll get him on board.” No sir, you will not. It’s not like I decided this out of the blue. I’ve always been 100% in the “no” column ever since I first considered the idea as a teenager and have never budged an inch for even a second.
She knew this when she married me. Like many women seem to do though, she thought she was going to change my mind. Anyway, I’ve already made it clear that if I have to sit there and have my character insulted because I made a perfectly mature and responsible choice and insist on sticking to it, I want be going back. We shall see.
I forgot to mention that I’ve also come to the conclusion that if she will leave me for not having a kid, no matter how much she claims otherwise now, she will always put that kid before our relationship if she does get it, so is it really worth saving if that’s the only way to “save” it?
Josh,
I’m very sorry for your situation. I would like to suggest that if indeed the “counselor” that your wife wants you to go to said, “don’t worry worry we’ll get him on board”, then he is unethical. A good couples counselor represents both members of the couple not just the one who calls him first. He’s also obviously a simpleton and oblivious to the basic workings of human psychology if he thinks that trying to manipulate someone into making a major life decision would be good for any relationship. Is he an advocate for your relationship of for the unborn? Did your wife happen to explain to this person that she married you knowing that you didn’t want children? If so, then he should help you both come to terms with her change of heart and the impact it will have on your marriage, not try to convince you that your wife is right and you are wrong.
As Patrick so elegantly pointed out in his post, there is an emotional cost associated with convincing someone to do something they don’t want to do. You might point these things out to your wife and suggest that you both research therapists together and/or choose one based upon a G.P. recommendation. I would also make sure this person is licensed and not some crackpot. who hung a shingle. Like most areas of health care, a few therapists are superb, most are average, and a few are well below average.
I wish you all the best in resolving this situation, but I’m afraid that i agree with Patrick–if your wife continues down the path she is on, it’s a lose-lose situation. Speaking as a woman, I honestly don’t know what goes on in the minds of some members of my gender who think that pushing men into parenthood is going to make their partners or their children happy. I think it’s what they call magical thinking.
Oh but “it’sdifferent when it’s your own” so “they’ll change their mind” and become loving dads “once the baby arrives”. :p
I don’t want to derail this into a religious debate, but we’re Christians, so my wife insists on biblical counseling, which is what this guy does. So I’m going in fully expecting to be told that we should be fruitful and multiply and children are blessings, that children are God’s way of making us unselfish, blah, blah, blah. So yes, I know I’m going in as the bad guy, even in the eyes of the person that’s supposed to helping us. So no, I’m not optimistic, but if she can’t deal with me not caving, at least I can tell the judge I tried.
Josh, you can always remind him that Jesus was CF, as have been many prominent members of the Christian faith! Can’t argue with that one…
Yeah, I’ll probably end up doing that, but I expect to be told that most or all of those people also didn’t get married. My wife has asked me many times in these discussions why I even got married if I didn’t want kids, as if that is the ony reason to.
I’ve pretty much been emotionally preparing myself to come to terms with whatever she decides. If she’s willing to throw almost 8 great years together away because I don’t want to become something I’m not and she knew I never wanted to be, then there’s not much I can do about it. I’ve never been anything but good to her, and before this, the same could be said for her. Apparently that’s just not enough though. I still can’t believe that one thing has torn it all apart so quickly. I am literally in shock.
I am so sorry you are going through this. It’s awful, but please remember that you didn’t do anything wrong in this situation. Two people get married because they want to be together, because they want the same things, and because they believe they can be each others’ best partners, and if that involves having kids b/c BOTH partners want it, then great, but people should not get married “just to have kids.” Your wife KNEW going into your marriage how you felt about having kids. If she decided to convince herself that it was “just a stage” you would grow out of, that was her poor decision, not yours. You were honest about what you wanted and she, ultimately, was not – not with you, and not with herself. Of course she has the right to change her mind if when you got married she thought she could be ok never having kids, but she has no right to pressure you to make that same change. If she ends up deciding this is worth ending what you both have built together over 8 years, that will be heart-breaking, but the alternative – you giving into her wishes and resenting both her and the theoretical child – would be far worse.
Well, I had my first counseling session tonight. Apparently I’m unnatural, very selfish, and have some severe mental issues from my childhood that I’m not aware of but they must be there somewhere that need to be worked out so I can get this irrational idea that I’ve never wanted kids out of my mind and become a good little sheep like everyone else. Because apparently no person who isn’t screwed up beyond belief would ever feel that way.
I swear I felt like I was defending myself on a murder charge the way I was being attacked. The worst part is that now I have to go back, with an assignment between now and then of listing a minimum of 20 good reasons that I should have a kid(and in 2 hours, and really several years, of trying I don’t yet have 1), so that we can work on making me normal. I hate my life.
Here’s a funny, yet kinda sad, story of what I’m dealing with. My wife mentioned that I had said in one of our discussions before to be able to talk to couples like us, who got married plenty young enough to have kids, neither had kids from previous relationships, didn’t have any totally by their own choice and were now in their 50s or 60s and see if they would do it the same way again if they had it to do over. Which is true that if I talked to say 10 couples like that, and 8 or 9 told me that looking back they really regret not having kids, that might really make me reconsider.
So he says, “Well I know a couple that’s sort of like that”. Then he proceeds to tell the story of a couple that got married, tried to have kids for several years but couldn’t, accepted it their early 40s, then adopted an orphan from Romania with severe physical and mental issues due to abusive conditions in the orphanage and after several trying years decided it was all worth it and the best thing that ever happened to them.
I sat there trying to keep my jaw off the floor from the astonishment of just how badly he was missing the point. I can already tell that this is not going to end well.
Lisa-I’m sure many people do use those arguments in trying to win over a partner, but it’s sort of like trying to talk someone into being in a relationship with you when they really don’t want to be. You might win them over so that they fall madly in love OR they might just torture you for a while and break your heart. Any adult who wants to engage in those types of strategies is welcome to it, but no child deserves to have his/her heart broken by being born to a knowingly unwilling parent. I wouldn’t even adopt an animal if my husband were not completely on board with having one in the house–meaning loving it with his heart and soul and helping me take care of it, let alone hope that he would take care of a baby he didn’t really want.
oh i totally agree – it was sarcasm, sorry
No sorry necessary! I understood you were being sarcastic. I was directing my comments at those who offer those arguments to win over a reluctant partner. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. So hard to add tone through the keyboard.
Josh–Oh dear, a man of the cloth. Well, it does seem that there will be an inherent bias in favor of having children, unless he is a humanist above all.
Would your wife also be open to seeing a non-religious counselor? There are licensed therapists who are also Christian. It seems like your wife is doing a lot of insisting in a lot of areas. It also sounds like you wanted to get married to formalize your relationship with your best friend and life partner. As partners you should both get a say in the choices that affect the partnership. I know that I’m not saying anything you don’t already know. I truly hope that for your sake your wife realizes that ganging up on you is not going to get her the result that she wants.
It always troubles me to hear that one person in a relationship was quite clear in their communications re: children before the marriage and yet the other assumed they didn’t know themselves or would change their mind. I think it’s rather disrespectful and a little condescending.
Ohhh, I’m constantly being told “you’ll change your mind, I was your age once you know”.
How retarded. I was 10 once but I don’t go around telling them they’ll decide to be a doctor instead of an astronaut “becuase I was your age once”.
It drives me insane. Plus, I’m just shy of thirty, I’m no child!
I usually respond with “ahh, but you were never ME at my age!” and secretly think to myself *perhaps I’m just wiser than you were…or are!*
I really don’t understand why people say “Oh, you’ll change your mind” as if having made the decision to be child-free is akin to deciding to work the red light district or to sell crack-cocaine at the elementary school. It’s a perfectly legitimate life-affirming decision, not one that you should strive to get over. The truth is that there are plenty of people who don’t change their minds, so the baby pushers should come up with a new tactic. The other truth is that there are plenty of people who had kids who changed their minds about how great it would be after the fact.
I’ve had a couple of women say to me “What are you waiting for?” That’s just it! I’m not waiting for anything to indicate that my life has started. I’m content with the way things are. I don’t need to adopt the life benchmarks of the masses to validate myself. I’m sorry that concept is troubling to some. Maybe they should ask themselves why?
Lisa- the next time someone sticks their nose in, maybe you should ask them how it would impact them if you didn’t have children. I’d be curious to know the answer.
Wow, I am 28 and a total kidult and reading this stuff just blows my mind.
I had a little ragging from my parents coworkers about kids. Am I the only one out there who had the balls to tell them all hell no? I love my freedom way to much to waste it on some kid and thus stunt my own carrier and life. There are people out there that feel bad about people telling them they are selfish for not having kids? I take it as a compliment! That I am smart enough to love myself and my carrier and spend the time/effort on someone I love more than anyone else, me. Perhaps I am just way too apathetic but wow, I had no idea people out there actually cared what society thought about them, let alone their choice to have or not have kids.
Grow some balls already!
Well, things seem to be getting better and worse at the same time. The counseling has been better since he gave up on trying to change my mind and switched the focus to trying to help her move past this, which was my wife’s original stated intention for counseling. He also made the “mistake” of telling her that having a child is not the only way to feel fulfilled in life.
Unfortunately, now she’s upset, claiming that this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, claiming that a man can’t understand that she has a biological clock, which apparently is king of this whole process. Anyway, it’s totally miserable now. She tells everybody who will listen that she wants a baby and I don’t. I guess so they can tell her that we should go ahead and have one and I’ll change my mind when it’s here, which is normally what happens. Then I disagree and were fighting again. We go through this process at least once a day. I also get yelled at now any time she sees me doing anything I enjoy. Apparently I shouldn’t be able to be happy when she can’t be a mom or something.
I still love her, but I honestly don’t know how much longer I can live like this.
I am in this situation currently. I’m 34 and female. My partner (1 1/2 year younger than me) tells me he’s still ‘unsure’ about whether he wants kids or not… but maybe none at all… but not sure.. but maybe? or not? So, basically, not this year anyway but not entirely sure.
I always thought personally I would want children, but definitely was not ready in my 20s, and wasn’t therefore going to have them then.
I feel I’m far removed from those posts above, in the sense that I don’t see really how you can say your partner is a bitch/bastard and not leave them. I mean if you feel that strongly that they take you for a walking womb, incubator or any of those delicious names, then surely, it’s reason enough to leave them? Why stay in a doomed relationship?
And surely, there is a HUGE difference, between someone who says ‘I will never have kids’ to someone who says ‘I will, but not sure when’. In case 1, it’s a no brainer: if you’ve got a different desire, then you’re bound to hit a brick wall. However, if you say you DO want kids, but are unsure about when, then I (as someone who is now ready to be a parent –after MUCH thought actually, thank you very much) have a right to ask ‘when’. It’s not putting pressure, but being realistic. I’m getting older and the man, even though he’s got all the time in the world, in reality, will HAVE to make a decision if he wants me to be the mother of his kids.
I don’t see why there is room for resentment in that? In my present situation, I actually see his side too. I know I want kids (and hell, I’m not super ready at the thought of changing my life completely) but as I get older, I seriously have to think this through now. If he also wants kids, but not sure when… well, he’s got to know pretty soon because I can’t wait forever. I know it’s a difficult situation for him too. And YES, I do want children with HIM, not with another make-up dad that I will have to find elsewhere.
Why is it so hard to think that a woman (through physical ‘clock’ or not) gets ready in her mid 30s and wasn’t before? It may be a completely rational, physical response, or maybe (like I think happened in my case) I have thought the question through for so long (and have been with him for so long -10 years) that I think, in our relationship, at this point in time, it is a very valid question to ask.
It’s a bit insensitive of people to think I’M the one pressuring him (well, what other option have I got?)
Thankfully, he’s very understanding and I think we’ve got to go through those heart-wrenching questions together. I would NEVER want him to say yes because he thinks I’ve nagged him long enough. I don’t want a dad who isn’t 100% on board. I don’t want a partner who thinks he’s ‘caving’ in either. I don’t want to ‘trick’ him into having a kid and I don’t want him to think he’s just going to have to say yes because otherwise, it’d make me super unhappy. You know what? The only certainty I have, is that I want kids. It’s hard on me too you know… I don’t particularly want them now… I can realistically wait, what, 2 years? After that, I’ll reach a point where I can’t even consider him saying ‘you’d be better off without me because I don’t want kids after all’ because at that stage, basically, it will have to be me caving in and ending up childless against my will.
If someone suggests reprogramming my life with someone else, going through learning to get over my previous partner, loving someone else, and deciding we want a family together is going to take more time than the clock allows me. And the bottom line is, I simply don’t want that. Simple, yet so complicated (!)
Frenchy, it is possible that your partner has been telling you he is unsure because he doesn’t want to drive you away with an outright “no” to the question of kids. Even a lot of genuinely “unsure” people turn out to be “childfree”… and you may be included. I see hesitation on your part in your post (“It’s hard on me too you know… I don’t particularly want them now… I can realistically wait, what, 2 years?”). When I heard my clock ticking I thought I wanted kids, but I found myself saying those same things. I finally took the desire to put it off as a huge warning flag that I should not have them at all.
Well, the bottom line is ‘I want kids’; that I know for sure. The urge (physical urge) that I feel now is an added extra. I don’t want to be childless… so for my part, it’s more a fear of the unknown and I think I’m always very realistic about my choices (unlike many women who go through it ‘blind’). I have been an au pair for a year (full time, truly) and I know how hard it is to raise a kid (even though he wasn’t mine). So, I HAVE to ask those questions, but I know I do want at least one kid.
My partner assures me (so, do I have to doubt that too?) that he’s unsure either way. I did tell him he must tell me if it’s a ‘no’… Indeed, it can turn out to be the case. It could be no, it could be yes. I think we’re in the same place, whereas for me, the physical urge has now taken over slightly more.
I think (and it can only be a good thing), we’re thinking about it VERY hard (as opposed to let things happen I guess?) I have now many friends who think it’s ‘the thing to do’ when you’re together that long… well, I beg to differ. I think it’s NOT the thing to do. It’s the thing to discuss maybe but a sure thing? No. It can’t be ‘the logical thing’ because it’s not based on logic.
If your plan to have kids doesn’t happen, just remember that there are a lot of alternatives to procreation in the quest for meaningful experiences in life. You said that in your work with children you realize that having kids is very hard. Focus on things like that. You can have fun working with kids and then come home to a peaceful place where you have free time. Once my husband and I declared ourselves “childfree” we felt so free to travel and have a meaningful relationship. I’m even a little tickled that I’m bucking society’s conventions, especially the roles laid out for women. There is a big world out there to explore, and so many things to try and do. We’ve known so many parents and so many of them don’t even seem to care for each other anymore, and the relentless, exhausting demands of parenthood play a big role in that. Be comforted by the fact that YOU are enough for your partner and not just a vessel for him to carry on his name. I could go on. Try reading through the archives on this excellent site for a full picture of what it really means to be childFREE.
Frenchy – At least you’re both making the effort to really talk about what you both want, rather than resorting to passive-aggressive “but I thought you’d grow out of it!” assumptions. A lot of people do make the regrettable choice to “just do it” without taking the time to truly consider what having a kid can entail.
It may be that you’ll have to pull the plug on the relationship if he remains indecisive for longer than you’re willing to handle, which will hurt, but in the long run, it’ll be better for you both than having one of you give into the other, only to let the resulting resentment fester and poison your relationship (and it’d be even worse if a child were to be involved).
Xena is right, though, in that one doesn’t need to have a child to have a meaningful life. I agree that often we’re not given the information or encouragement to consider the alternatives to parenthood as equally valid and life-affirming choices (especially if we’re women – the whole “but women are supposed to want babies!” line). There are also many other ways to have children in your life – volunteering, teaching, fostering – besides having a biological child. If you’ve considered this and still decide that you absolutely want a biological child despite what it may mean for your relationship (and remember, it may be harder to be a single mother, but there’s no rule that says that you have to be married/have a partner to do a good job raising a child), that’s your decision and that’s fine. Just don’t do yourself a disservice by discounting all the alternatives and choices available to you.
Hi all,
just did a research on kidults and ended up here – totally wrong and hurtful connection, in my opinion. I know kidults and most people posting here are anything but irresponsible Peter Pans. On the contrary, I can all see you struggling with major relationship decisions and none of you are taking it lightly. That comes from a 31-year-old-woman who is six months pregnant by the way, who went to quite a long decision process herself. But contrary to a lot of your cases I had the luxury of being supported by my partner. He always wanted kids, while it took me a long time to even consider the option. He never pressured me about it, always making clear that his first priority is a life with me and any kids would be a nice bonus. I on the other hand wanted to enjoy our two-people-relationship and get my – quite chaotic – job live sorted out first. Then, some years ago my dad died (which, I must admit, made me think about life and how short it is) and on the other hand I started to appreciate the great relationship I have with my mum and wondered if it wouldn’t be nice to have something similar with my kid when I’m about 60. And then the job thing worked out fine and I felt ready to take up a new challenge in life. So, it was a long road, but I am happy that I took my time and I’m grateful my partner didn’t pressure me along it, because now we are both fully on board and are looking forward to January with a mixture of joy and dread because we don’t have a lot of false ideas of glorious postcard happiness regarding the first two years – but on the other hand we know we’re in it together and out of our own free wills.
So my point is: Don’t let yourself be bullied. Give the idea maybe the benefit of doubt, let it grow. If you don’t want kids, you shouldn’t have them. Just be fair enough to say so early on, so your girl can look for a father while it’s still biologically possible for her.
Good luck!
Josh, this one’s for you. I had a huge talk with my partner (maybe ex) last night about all this. I felt like I was being painted as some bitter, twisted, messed up psycho who is out of touch with reality and only sees the negative side of things. Ouch. Even though I strove to be respectful and understanding of his perspective, this was not reciprocated. Because I don’t want kids so I’m less than human and my feelings don’t count.
The interesting part was that we were with some friends and asked them about their feelings on having (4) kids. The wife said “I wish we didn’t have kids” and the husband said “you can’t say that! you’re saying you wish we didn’t have mary, alice…” and she interrupted and said “no, be honest. she doesn’t have kids yet, would you really tell her it’s worth it?” and he paused, tried to say something, and got nowhere. The conversation went on like that. The parents were on my side!!! But of course the excuse my partner made later was that they were drunk and didn’t really mean it.
It’s the most painful thing in the world, isn’t it. And you know, while all this was going on I was thinking “there’s a guy called Josh on the other side of the world who totally gets how I’m feeling right now” and I felt less alone.
And therein lies the beauty of this blog, for me.
Lisa,
I’m really sorry to hear that you’re going through this. I wouldn’t wish being in the position I’m in now on my worst enemy. Hopefully it’ll work out or if it must end, the hurt won’t be too severe. I know how it is to be treated as if no human being with the slightest bit of a conscience could possibly think the way I do. Also, being understanding of the others’ point of view but being told that you’re not because if you were you would agree with them.
Interesting that you got some parents to take the CF side on that one, but in reality, in this situation only 2 opinions on the matter mean anything at all. I get the opinions of everybody who takes my wife’s side thrown at me constantly by her. That group includes my family, her family, her friends, her co-workers, the random people on the street she stops to tell how evil because I don’t what kids, the mommies on the “I want a baby” boards she goes to griping about me, etc., etc. None of them really matter to me though, except hers’ since she’s really the only one I’m hurting, and that truly does bother me. Not enough to ruin a child’s life too though.
I guess the last hope you have may be counseling. Know going on though that you will be the bad guy. I managed to withstand the initial onslaught of that and now it seems we may actually be getting somewhere. She’s still mad that the counselor isn’t still beating me up over it, although he did confess that he’s never come across someone as 100% against the idea of kids as me in over 20 years of practice. I didn’t know whether to take that as an insult or a compliment.
He’s moved the focus to trying to see if she’s willing to accept my no as a last-ditch effort to save the marraige. It may work, but probably won’t, but at least there are occasional flashes of hope.
Anyway, to wrap up, I wish you well, and like you, it’s comforting to know that I’m not alone and also that my story is at least some small help to someone else.
What an interesting thread!!!
I was in a relationship for 2.5 years with my girlfriend and we split up in March due to my reluctance to commit to having children.
My story has already been told in this thread by other people, so there is no point repeating!
My heart goes out to Josh, I was in a similar situation. I hope that your wife backs down over the kids issue, although I think you may be damned if you do, damned if you don’t. One person is probably going to resent the other if you both stay together.
My advice to you is to stand your ground! You sound so confident and convinced that you don’t want kids that you would be making a mistake to surrender your will in order to keep your wife content. You will end up resenting her and probably very unhappy and wondering what life ‘might have been like’, although I’m sure you would love your children to bits….
My opinion on councillors/psychotherapists…In the last few months before splitting up with my gf I went to see a psychotherapist about 7 times to see if he could ‘cure me’. Understand that I really wanted to stay with my gf, stopping short at the point of having children, because I know that there would be a good chance that I would regret having kids. Although I have to say I nearly caved-in.
The psychotherapist kept telling me the usual, ‘when you have kids you will be happy’, ‘you can still do all the things you do now if you have kids’ (yeah right!) ‘you will be lonely when you’re old if you don’t have children’.
About 2 months after I split up with my ex, I went to see him again (I was going through a horrid time getting over her). I thought he was a family man with children and was very traditional. Do you know what he told me? He said that he was married for 20 years to his childhood sweetheart, they NEVER had kids and they had split up nearly 2 years. He is now dating a girl who is cheating on her partner (I found this out from someone else). Very moral indeed! And I’m supposed to take his opinions seriously?!
I have to say that my ex-gf did have an effect on me – I think that one day I might actually have kids, but it would be quite a few years from now, and then again maybe I won’t, but I’m certainly more open to the idea now, which is ok. I really believe that you must totally want children before you have them.
@Josh and similar others, the pain of splittign up is at times very hard to bear. I’m over 6 months split up and still think of her a lot, although I’m a lot more content than I was.
I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. It has affirmed to me that what I believed was right!
Thank you
I just don’t get Josh’s wife. I mean, ok, he gives in, waves a white flag, presents her with 100 turkey basters full of come and she gets pregnant – yippee! Then what? Does she not see anything beyond the positive pregnancy test? Its like people who want the wedding but are completely clueless and uninterested in the details of a marriage. Ok, you’ve got a kid with this guy you browbeat, what will that entail? The husband shouting “You wanted him, YOU change him / drive him / shut him the hell up!”? The husband making snide remarks about how they WOULD be able to afford a bigger house / new car / vacation, but she insisted on having a kid and not working? The guy being distant, bored, moody, working late, hanging out more, making internet friends, not being attracted to him wife? I mean, does this woman understand what exactly she will have if she has a child? Obviously, they will divorce and fight about property, alimony, child support, etc. and THEN in court the guy will be creamed because she will say “Everyone knows he never wanted the child anyway and thats why he is not giving me and my poor child money/the house/ his soul.” It will be HORRIBLE! Doesn’t this woman understand that it wont be rainbows and ponies and daisies???
I agree with you, but I’ll tell you what she’s thinking. She’s believing the stories other people have told her of my husband/brother/guy I know didn’t want kids and then when they held them they just fell in love and love being a dad. She assumes that the magic light switch will switch on and I’ll wonder how I ever survived without kids. She doesn’t even consider all that other stuff as even being a possibility. She is wrong.
It broke my heart to see one of my oldest friends confess to me this summer that he regrets having kids. and he regrets marrying his wife. Or rather that the marriage was fine, but after the kids, the marriage changed, she changed, became all militant organic food maniac who reads safety manuals and baby proofs everything to the point of the ridiculous. I have known him since I was 16, and I knew in my heart of hearts that this wasnt for him. I tried to mention something before he proposed, but he dismissed it and I wasnt going to insist when he was obviously in love and had made the decision. But now, I don’t know. It’s sad. He feels downtrodden and stuck. If he leaves, he will get killed in court – he makes a lot of money she doesnt do anything. He’ll lose everything (that wasnt lost in 2008). He spends most days and weekends at work, sends the fam to a beach house every summer and basically avoids coming home when they are home. Ironically, he makes more and more money and gets more and more dug in with investments, mortgages, etc. so feels even less like its possible to divorce. The guy is 39, and his life ended at like 33. All he does is work, work, work, gym, beer, sneak home to sleep and then run off again to work. Money, success, and he’s miserable. He doesn’t love his wife or his children. He’s terribly lonely. Its a terrible life. I wish I lived closer to hang out with him every once in a while, take him out for a beer and a steak (wife became vegan, ha ha). And I knew his wife, in fact introduced them. I can honestly say she changed immensely. She was a hippie dippie druggy save-the-whales activist at some non-profit who had a nose ring and told jokes. Now she’s a vegan who you can’t even smoke a cigarette near, and goes to yoga and massages all the time, and talks of nothing but child development. IT’S JUST BIZARRE. I wish too that those kids were never born, I love my friend.
If you’ll pardon the expression he needs to shit or get off the pot.Make the marriage work together with his wife or leave it. If he’s unhappy and knowingly stays in the same situation then he is either willingly staying the situation or not prepared to change it. It’s hard luck that life hasn’t turned out to be smooth sailing but it still takes 2 to tango. He didn’t listen to you when you tried to tell him, he got married helped make babies and, surprise! his wife – and life – changed. I tried to feel sorry for him, but if he really wants his life back he can get it back. It will cost him, but he can do it.
I know there are many people who regret they had kids… usually when it’s too late and they are already firmly here. You don’t say how old they are but it sounds like they are young, and if so those kids need their father. If he doesn’t love his wife that’s one thing… and bad enough but those children didn’t ask to be born and they deserve his love.
Thanks for this read. I was feeling bad about telling a potential mate that I’m probably not going to want kids, but each day that goes by I become a little bit more confident to do so. In my opinion women who tell a man that he needs to grow up are doing this to get what they want. This is also childish. Better to realize that two people want two different things and to walk away from a potential marriage.
Also, it is unfair to change one’s mind to want kids after one has already hooked a man. He went into the marriage thinking his partner didn’t want kids.
I’m not trying to be insensitive here, just stating my opinion. I do realize it’s hard when you’re in the midst of a great relationship to make the right choice for everyone. I don’t want to tell potential partners the brutal truth of it all myself for fear of being alone, but I must. I say brutal because in my opinion it seems that the majority of men want kids.
Hello,
Love reading this site, its fresh and refreshing. Compared to some childfree sites, that is not particular broad at all. But back to the point of the Men, the supposed Kiddult, well if that is a new phrase about the male of our species not wanting the responsibility of children. All I can say is God Bless them! Have we as women forgotten the story of some one we know, or one of our girlfriends, friends sister-in-law, friend’s cousin, who had a partner pretty happy together, until children came along, she wanted babies he didn’t. Then all hell broke out after the baby was born. Cut a long story short, she ended up a single mother, raising her children the best she can, while he quickly disappeared. Yes, everybody knows of that story. Its sad tragic, belittling to the women and children, everybody involved who is left to pick up the pieces, and struggle on the best they can. It takes honesty and truth to oneself to admit they do not want children. I know a few men, who complained they were tricked into having a baby, because their girlfriend/partner lead them to believe they were on the pill. Not for one minute do I accept those kinds of sad for myself stories, as I tell my men friends, if you don’t want kids, do something about it, use condoms get sterilised, use the male pill. Do anything that puts you in control of your fertily. Not blaming some gal because you couldn’t be bothered.
As to the Kiddults, I admit I am one myself. If that is what you want to name it, then I am guilty of it too. Previous relationships have ended, marriage proposals turned down because my exes wanted babies. Never mind the fact my exes were in their 40’s already had kids from previous relationship and marriages. I was and am not interested in having kids. Maturity comes in many forms, its not one size fits all maturity. Knowing what you don’t want is as good as knowing what you do want. If kids are not part of your life plan then its nobodies business but your own, and you should not have to justify it to anybody.
Having known a number of male work colleagues who were defininate about not having children, I have to say I was impressed a little bewildered by my male colleague choice to be sterilised at 28. (At the time I was 20 and this was the late 80’s)
But his gutsy confident stance on the subject impressed me so much. So for all childfree out there, Be yourselves, let them call us Kiddults who cares. We call parents breeders! so.
Live and let live, enjoy all the time you all have.
Peace!
By the way, are there any single childfree men out there, I could chat too.
Bye xx
As a woman in her late 20’s that doesnt want kids, I have found it down right hard to find someone who doesnt want kids and is within my religious beliefs of Christianity. I wonder if maybe some of these men don’t want them either and they just say they do because many women who are religious do. Or what…… maybe church family will think less of me if I never get married, let alone never give props to past generations by popping more kids. I find this highly contradicting when a church has this pressure for you to get married and have kids or else you arent an adult. Like it is God’s ultimate goal for humanity, and yet JC wasnt married or had kids and somehow they think it puts them above that or what, I dont know…. This might sound out of the loop, but personally if I ever one day got this huge urge to have kids, I think adopting would be best because there are just too many human beings already on this earth that need someone to take care of them.
Just checking back in, now a few months after the divorce. Yes, it is very hard within Christianity. I’m not looking to date yet, but I’ve been looking for friends in church and there are single parents everywhere I turn, but no singles even remotely in my age range (I’m 35) who don’t have either kids or baby rabies. It’s going to be near impossible when I do start looking again.
Josh – thanks again for keeping us updated. So sorry for what you’ve had to go through. It will be tough finding like-minded friends – especially within the church, which is rather sad. But I hope and pray you WILL find and make new friends…. maybe they just won’t be within the church community. Like you say, in that age group women are either going to be gagging to have kids, are married or single parents. No help to you. Perhaps try looking at activities… meet up groups etc. Usually lots of single people there usually. I’d suggest dancing but it may not be your thing. I just know that dance classes are usually single people looking to make friends through a shared passion. They might not all hit it off romantically but having a shared passion takes the heat of.
Besides, if you learn to partner dance you will be amazed how much like a magnet you will become for the ladies. Take it from me – it is true, I am seeing it. You mightn’t have thought of that but it is something to consider.:)
Sorry to hear that it didn’t work out Josh. I am still in my relationship in a very similar circumstance – just that we aren’t married. I’m glad that you stuck to your convictions and while it may seem a high price now, I’ve seen so many other people go through this and come out the other end with a partner who feels the way they do, and they’re happier for it.
Good luck and remember you have our support.
I disagree. There are definitely women around who do not want children. I can’t point you to a place where they hang out, but I have been shocked by how many I meet and know. My dance teacher, several coworkers of my husband, just random people in random places. There are women like that. Maybe they don’t advertize because they don’t want to isolate themselves from their friends and relatives, but they are there. And certainly online you can find likeminded people. Sorry about your situation, and I do hope you feel like you did the right decision. Pain heals quicker with conviction, I think.
I believe we need more dead white females. These people are the cancer wasting away american society from within. For what it is worth, I encourage every man to go to Asia or Latin America and to find a real woman; the cunts we are stuck with in north america are lower than whale-shit, and better men than me have noted this (usually after they have been falsely accused of rape; have had everything taken from them in a divorce court; or have seen their children spirited away by a vain-glorious, sociopathic bitch who, once the kids have been used as pawns in her little game, could care less about them).
They should probably be killed – but no one is going to do the deed so it’s wishful thinking (unless the so-called caliphate finally arrives, which I highly doubt). In any case, we really should join with our Muslim brothers because we have a common enemy.
I should also add, just to protect myself from frivolous allegations, that I am not threatening to attack any white females or anything of the sort; it’s all wishful thinking on my part (just as it is for most men who realize what a deceitful, disgusting, gynocentric fraud marriage and relationships are in this culture). If white females are attacked, it will probably come at the hands of un-castrated muslim fanatics; men in our culture simply want to avoid white females and to live their own lives (usually in a warm, tropical place) – but we surely do not wish them well.
This is a site about being CHILD FREE. You sound like the kind of guy who thinks women should just stay at home and be meek and have babies and take care of your every need… This is not the site for you.
Oh, and by the way, GO F*** YOURSELF!!!