An Apology To The Childfree? Not Likely!
15 03 2008And NFP calls this an apology?!
Thanks to Christopher W for finding this link.
Folks, I thought you’d be interested in knowing that, in an effort to “apologize” Natural Family Planning seems to have completely lost the plot. And she’s still on her bender about the Childfree.
Here’s a quote from her latest post:
“First, I’m going to say something long overdue, knowing full well this doesn’t mean much to those embittered by my words and clinching their own acrimony.”
In fact they don’t mean anything at all, because – surprise, surprise – they aren’t an apology. An apology doesn’t go on to insult the people you’re supposedly “apologizing” to. And “embittered by her words?” Self-delusion is a sad thing.
“I never meant for my post to be a personal indictment on the souls of readers.”
Of course she did! She still does.
But here’s the thing. It doesn’t matter what she meant. Who cares? The fact is she summarily dismisses a whole group of people as evil, simply because she disagrees with the way they’ve decided to live their lives. the fact that they are childfree and like it.
As for personal indictment… talk about flattering oneself….
The rest of her ugly and ill-informed, fundamentalist post is of course on NFP’s blog. You can read it if you like – she calls it her “truth” – but it’s just as ignorant as her previous post – maybe worse because she’s so obviously wriggling on her self-imposed hook. Even if she did consult a dictionary rather carefully to check she had just the right number of words to verbally deride the “evil childfree people” who, well, who don’t want to have kids. (How dare they?)
This person calls herself a Christian??! Well, at least she didn’t quote (a child-free, childfree) Jesus, preferring instead to fall back on Freud and Gandhi!
It took all these weeks for her to come up with a load of claptrap that only makes her look sillier than ever.
Discernment ? Not a chance.
NFP Works – Intolerance is intolerance – no matter how many meaningless “apologetic” bleatings you wrap it with. Save your apologizing… it’s showing your hypocrisy, and the funny thing is the only person you’re fooling is you.
That you take all this time worrying about our reproduction - something that’s none of your business AND which you can do nothing about - is very sad. But guess what? We’re used to fundies… you’re not the first and you certainly won’t be the last.
And we’re still not having kids.
I agree with ChrisW – childfree people have no need to affirm or prove anything to this woman or people like her. And this fact is also true…nothing anyone says to this woman will make a blind bit of difference…so have a laugh at her post, but save your energy for… not making babies! 
Technorati Tags: Childfree, childfree
Eastern holiday is now approaching. Is there a better time to be CF?
Here’s my comment in case it gets deleted:
You’re not very good at apologizing are you? Most people don’t insult the people that they are “apologizing” to. All I’m getting from you is that contaception is bad because it allows people to act in a way that you don’t agree with. There is no such thing as a natural law. There is no such thing as universal morality. Everything is morally relative which is why it’s so funny when conservative people decry it.
All morally relative means is supporting morals that work best for you. It’s just that some things work best for everybody. So society (and even humans in general) adopt it. We consider killing bad because we all know that we wouldn’t last long if people could kill willy nilly. So we all come together and agree not to kill because it saves our own skin. Because we as a society can gang up and punish those that do. And it still relative. Some don’t believe in the death penalty and some do. Some are extreme and don’t believe in killing in self defense. We give people less time in jail if it was a crime of passion. Some people think that’s ridiculous. It’s all morally relative.
And who cares about what is unnatural. I will never understand this obsession with the “natural” people have going on. Especially since they are only concerned about the natural when it’s convient. The computer you typed this post on isn’t natural. You’re probably wearing synthetic fabrics in your clothing. It you were speeding and got in a serious car crash you’d expect emergency doctors to intervene with unnatural methods to save you life. But all of a sudden when it comes to reproduction you’re concerned about what’s natural.
Lurker - Easter is approaching. Could there be a worse time for sharing thoughts that are so intolerant? Oh, sorry, it’s no different from any other time..
Ashley - thanks for this great comment. Following her rather odd rambling contraception is bad, sex without kids is worse and “unnatural.” IVF must then be equally terrible, except that since the intention is to produce kids, it’s probably “not on her list of “unnatural” obsessions. Hubris.
And you’ve reminded me to say this to readers… since there is a very real chance your comments will be deleted if on NFPs blog (she’s said so) feel free to post them here.
A quote by Robert A Heinlein
There are hidden contradictions in the minds of people who “love Nature” while deploring the “artificialities” with which “Man has spoiled ‘Nature.’” The obvious contradiction lies in their choice of words, which imply that Man and his artifacts are not part of “Nature” — but beavers and their dams are.
But the contradictions go deeper than this prima-facie absurdity. In declaring his love for a beaver dam (erected by beavers for beavers’ purposes) and his hatred for dams erected by men (for the purposes of men) the Naturist reveals his hatred for his own race — i.e., his own self-hatred.
In the case of “Naturists” such self-hatred is understandable; they are such a sorry lot. But hatred is too strong an emotion to feel toward them; pity and contempt are the most they rate.
I posted this one:
“Jesus was childfree.
Publish this comment.
I dare you.”
I wonder how long it will stay up…
This was my comment:
That’s not an apology at all. When you apologize, you take back the hurtful words you said, express regret for saying them, and ask for forgiveness. You do not basically repeat the original hurtful words and add a little transparent spin to them. Calling childfree people “evil” and calling the childfree lifestyle “evil” are the same thing. If the act of being childfree is so “evil,” it stands to reason that only “evil” people would engage in it. Ergo, you just repeated your insult and didn’t apologize at all. Furthermore…
1.) There’s no such thing as “natural law,” unless you’re talking about Hobbes, in which case, you should be talking about an ungoverned society rather than reproduction.
2.) Gandhi, for all his merit, is still a product of his times. During his lifetime, most of society believed in the very paternalistic “we must protect women from themselves” BS feminism worked so hard to get rid of.
3.) I’d like to see you make a reasoned, rational, logical argument to support your view that being childfree is morally wrong. I believe that for something to be morally wrong, it must hurt or violate the rights of others. To say that something is morally wrong just because you say it is or because “it just is” is not an argument, that’s a cop out. Being childfree does not affect anyone other than the childfree person. It does not hurt anyone or violate anyone’s rights. And BTW, if you ever do attempt to make that argument, don’t even waste a line like “it hurts the kids who aren’t born” because you can’t harm or violate the rights of the nonexistent.
Thanks for these very insightful comments.
As I thought, none of them are appearing on NPF blog… so we can assume she’s deleting them all, and only publishing those that hold up her misguided world view. But, she says, she speaks in the language of faith. What??
And here’s the comment I just posted on her blog…I’m pretty sure it’ll be deleted as well
“As was said in the comments you’ve already deleted, you did not apologize. You merely restated exactly what you did in your original post. And, as I’m sure you’re going to delete any comment that doesn’t line up with yours - showing how afraid you are of any view that’s different from your own - commentators will be leaving them on my blog… so you can be sure the world will get to see them whether you want them to or not.”
along the same lines as everyone else’s comments really… I can’t add much
I remember reading once about apologies. It’s not just the continuation of the insults after her so called “apology” that make it a “non apology”. Anything that starts “I apologise that” or “I apologise for” is not an apology. A real apology would have said something like “I apologise to all those childfree people who I have offended”. Nothing else needed. That would have been a real apology. The word that creeps in…
“I’m sorry that my words and stinging criticism of a lifestyle I disagree with caused so much misunderstanding and scorn….blah blah…”
Yeah whatever… LOL
Also, the whole natural law crap. Exactly what you say BritGirl. IVF etc isn’t natural, but I’m sure she supports it!
Hey, and “natural law” (if it even does exsist) wouldn’t include overpopulation would it? Population controls itself with disease, fertility problems and illness, but all these “unnatural medical advances” continue to keep people alive longer than what “natural law” would dictate.
*head desk* scenario me thinks.
I feel comforted by the fact that this woman is so obviously unhealthy and off-base. Her unintelligent fundamentalist ravings insure that she will attract only those who are likewise fuckwitted (pun intended). IMO the rest of the blogosphere will readily discern that her non-Christlike thoughts and behaviours cancel out any credibility she could ever possibly possess and shun her.
But, if she teaches her children this same thing, its only compounding the problem. The moment anyone turns any other group into the cause of the problems, thats the moment it turns dangerous.
But, brightfeather, a lot of fundaMENTALists, are like her. (emphasis on mental). The idea that humanity and what it does is not part of nature, is silly at best and dangerous at worst.
People like her would rarely if ever change their opinions.
She finally deleted my comment. I thought it was pretty neutral and polite. I guess by civilized discussion she means comments that agree with her.
Here’s mine:
I also took a screenshot of my post on her blog.
BTW - In situations such as these, I am torn. I am torn because I know that I commit a spiritual crime. I give up on people like that because I find them hopeless. And so I don’t bother to try and educate.
One more thing: Mercurior I wanted to address teaching their children. Remember, there is some hope that the children themselves can grow up with a mind of their own and break the cycle. Although the likelihood and chances are slim, there’s still a chance. Those are the ones we should not give up on.
She’s allowed all of the comments through - except for, I am assuming, comments that are inappropriate, bad words, or threatening. An action I don’t disagree with.
However, she “proved me wrong” yet “again” by “allowing” opposing view points. Read her response to me. I am most amused.
(Yes, I use my quotes around various words appropriately.)
Here are my comments…but you all have probably seen these before…
#
It’s sad to note that most people who actually do harm to children are not child free, but childed or at the very least claim to “love” children so much that they are driven to work with them (in order to have easier access to abuse them). Even more interesting to note that you feel people who choose to not have children they do not want to do the work of raising are evil.
“they themselves were children once, and oops–thank you to the “fertility idolaters” that were their parents!”
Being a child at one time in your life does not mean you have to create children you do not want to raise. I was a suicidal alcoholic at one time in my life too, and I have no desire to recreate that. Also, my parents do consider my life choices to be a thank you for all the hard work they did to raise someone with common sense, and enough of a back bone to know myself and live within my mental/emotional/physical confines. My parents got the happy child they wanted, and are glad for me to remain happy with my life.
#
Feh said,
March 17, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Oh, and I’d add here…my decision to breed only affects me. If my partner really wants a child, he will have to leave and meet someone who shares his beliefs. If my parents want to interact with children more, they will seek out the opportunity to mentor or volunteer with children. When people decide to breed and refuse to do any work to raise their children to be productive members of society, they affect everyone.
When I posted my blog a while back about attacks on the childfree community, it was the original article at NFP that provoked it. This woman is so hateful, I couldn’t leave her a comment, though I tried, because there’s simply too much wrong with her “apology.” I would just have been repeating what all of you have already said and it was said so remarkably the first few times! Kudos to those who could bring their thoughts into such eloquence, I had trouble seeing past my anger that anyone could believe the utter nonsense she seems to spew freely.
Besides, I am firmly opposed to censorship of any sort. If she’s going to post that sort of idiocy and then delete comments at will when she doesn’t like them, I can’t bring myself to post them at all.
Try though I might, I simply cannot seem to understand why anyone thinks it’s their business that I have decided not to breed? But, I suppose that’s what’s to be expected of the blindly religious.
yes cfsincesix, we can hope, but unlikely as they will know no difference.
mercurior said:
Oh, Come on, mercurior, have a *leeeeetle* hope. I mean, *we* grew up under pressure and assumptions we’d have children.
BTW, I grew up Roman Catholic and I was presented with these view points as well. I had good ol’ fashioned Catholic guilt regarding being CF and it wasn’t until my early 30’s when I had a nice long talk with a priest and now I am at peace.
CFSinceSix… I was amused she let the comments through…lol. Probably because it made her look bad - and of course she just had to prove you wrong
Just like the first time around the quality of comments in the main where reasoned and sound - unlike her post and her comments. And just like the first time around most of the comments are dismissed in the face of her silly “argument.” I had to laugh though - “the language of faith” my left foot.
I liked your question as to whether she prayed over her answers… I bet she’d say yes.
“…except for, I am assuming, comments that are inappropriate, bad words, or threatening. ” You mean “bad threatening words” like..er… “childfree?!”
Kristyn - I know just what you mean. I really admire and applauded many of the comments, which in the face of her bogus-apology-rant were so well balanced. Like CFSince Six said, it’s just a pity that her vicious post received so much attention, when it should have been left to wither… I thought of that when I linked to her post.in fact, at one point I wondered if she was for real… sadly yes. But then I thought, attention to her blog doesn’t really matter in the big scheme of things. What mattered was exposing her sham apology for what it was. I don’t think she fully understands what the word “blog” means.
Her post, sorry “apology” is so idiotic and makes her look so daft that I just had to share it with everyone :). And the beauty of it is that everyone said much more than I could have done - even if they couldn’t post
Bright feather (wave!) Totally agree.
Sanne - and she did. Fancy that!
Mercurior - People like her would rarely if ever change their opinions. True. But hopefully even if they teach their kids this misguided stuff, when their kids grow up, and go into the Real World they realize their parents were wrong. Got to feel for the kids though, some have to be de-programmed from this stuff
sorry i am a pessimist, i try to be cynical, but frequently the world is more cynical than i can imagine.
i do hope they will discover the real world, but a few of these homeschoolers, like the duggars they come from affluent families, so they dont need to work, so they are insulated from reality. i do hope some will become somewhat intelligent.
Britgirl, I agree that in the long run, the exposure to her hate just makes her looks stupid and ignorant. Since seeing this here, and reading it over on her blog, I’ve been thinking about it. What kills me is, she’s going to breed –and more than likely already has– and bring more hatemongers into the world. Her kids are going to grow up and hate people blindly, and honestly, the world doesn’t need any more of that. I couldn’t stop thinking about this, it just makes me so angry, so I, too, posted about it on my blog. She can take down comments, so I didn’t bother, but she can’t take my blog posts down!
I really think that these people write this stuff solely to see their name emblazoned in backlash on a dozen boards. Notice when their opinions are contradicted, they resort to claims of death threats for merely posting their opinion. I always read that claim–anyone turns up the heat, immediately the cries of persecution and threats of bodily harm are offered up. Now I am not calling her a liar, but how come I never see these death threats? Lying is a bigger sin than not bearing children, so I hope she’s telling the truth.
Why are these ‘christians’ so self righteous? Everyone else is supposed to see the light and the error of their ways, but the christian monger never feels the need to bend.
I hate the argument people have that because you’re disagreeing with them you must be feeling guilty about your choices. It can’t be that I just…you know…disagree and thing you’re utterly wrong. Here’s my latest comment.
If you feel condemned by me, maybe that’s your conscience
I’ve seen a few of your supporters say something similar. I’m not sure of the logic of your argument. That’s like saying if a person defends themselves after being called a murderer, it must be because they’re guilty. I think it is much more likely that people are flabbergasted at such vehement opposition to a perfectly moral and acceptable lifestyle choice.
Additionally, saying “Oh, so I should have a child I don’t want?” is a strawman; the obvious answer is, “NO! You should WANT the child you were BLESSED WITH.”
That is not a strawman argument. There is a saying: “You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”. All of the people won’t want kids. It has nothing to do with the state of their morals. All of the people aren’t going to be happy with the same life choices. That’s just life. There is nothing sinister or evil about it. The inability to understand that denotes an inability to grasp the complexities of life.
I left another comment, I wonder if she has the balls (or would that be ovaries?) to react:
“If you think children are a blessing, then what’s the deal with ‘natural family planning’? You accept children as gifts from God, but at the same time, you’re trying to prevent them. Don’t kid yourself: natural family planning is still a trick so you can have sex without the hassle of having a baby: it’s just a lot less effective than a good ol’ condom.
Hypocrites…”
Thanks, Britgirl!
Now I have to apologize. I went back on what I said about not posting a response on NFP’s blog. I had an issue with a point of her discussion and I wanted to get it off of my chest. Well, here’s my verbal spewage…
“NFP, I wasn’t going to post here, as I felt I no longer needed to justify my wife and I’s decision on the CF life. However, I have a big problem concerning one point of your discussion in all of this. I take this very personally, so I consulted my NIV on the subject.
Reading through 1st Corinthians, chap. 6 and 7, It is said in there that sex is, in essence, a gift from God for a MARRIED man and woman to enjoy each other and their relationship. In no way is it sinful unless it is done outside of marriage. Don’t get me wrong; children are a great gift as well. God’s gifts are given and we can choose to accept them or not… He doesn’t penalize us for not accepting a gift. He DOES penalize us for not accepting his Son’s Salvation, as that is not a gift but a essential part of Christian life.
I understand that you equate marital sex without children as having a sinful relationship. However, that is akin to saying that my wife and I are living in sin with our relationship, which is not true according to the Word. Most of the CF people don’t have a hatred for children. Some people simply don’t feel that children would fit in their lives… or they have other reasons as well. I do love children, but a child would not fit in our relationship as my wife has 0% patience for kids (I’m not exaggerating). Imagine her trying to raise a child with me.
I would encourage you to do some more reading and prayer on this. I’ll be praying for you as well. Like I said, I originally wasn’t going to post at all; I felt that it wouldn’t matter. I simply don’t like the label that you’ve given my relationship. But… you probably already have your mind made up.
Thanks for reading. Cheers!”
Of course, I’m most likely spitting in the wind. But I just had to take her to task on this, belief for belief, my interpretation of the Word against hers. In the comments, I was gratified that other Christian and Catholic readers were challenging her as well. But, regardless of all our individual beliefs (believer, atheist, agnostic… whatever!) I think we all agreed that her post wasn’t anything approaching a true apology. Respect for all should be the moral imperative.
Britgirl, I feel like I’m spaming your board. But i don’t trust NFPworks to leave up anything that makes too much sense. One poster has decided that people miserable in their marriages should stay together. Otherwise, their divorce might make other people sad and that’s, of course, much more important.
/sarcasm
_____________________________
Kay:
Well, why would childfree people who are happy and comfortable with their lifestyle want to read a Catholic NFP blog
There are these neat little things called google blog search and google alerts. When you type in childfree you are given a list of blogs that have recently written on the topic. If you get google alerts, you get one everytime there is a post made containing the word childfree. Childfreedom is very much an online community since most of us don’t know many childfree people in real life. We use these features to find more people like us. So everytime NFPworks posts one of these it comes into our inbox or shows up on a blog search. And when you see a blog asking if you’re evil you tend to take notice.
Louise:
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. My parents divorce made me, my sister, and them 10 times happier. Who do you think convinced them to go ahead with it because it wouldn’t ruin their life? Me. I felt nothing but relief after they divorced and I loved them both. Life isn’t as black and white as you seem to think it is. Other people getting divorced may ruin your life. But it seems that people doing things you don’t want them to greatly affects you.
I typed “childfree support bitter” into Google and your site came up near the top. No editorial comment, just wanted to let you know how I came across your site.
I wanted to say how impressed I was with all your coments on the NFP works blog… and here too
Despite all weak the efforts of several of her like-minded posters, who tried to justify the unjustifiable by selectively blaming it on childfree blogs and sites, you still made such thoughtful and thought provoking comments. They showed up the fundies, for sure. I didn’t see where NPF Works managed to counter with any logical argument. Well done to all!
Peggy - I don’t believe she gets death threats at all. Who can be bothered? She hasn’t said anything worth killing her over. Anyone making death threats to anyone is as stupid as her post. But it makes a good promo line for her self-justification… after all, she can think herself a saint for “speaking out against sinful behaviour”. But IF she is getting said threats…she could claim martyrdom in a heartbeat
Ashley - no way are you spamming this blog. I read your posts on the other blog by the way… great responses.
I also wanted to add… that even though I know they exist, it’s sometimes scary to realize that there are some people with such closed and in some cases poisonous minds. Even IVF is supposed to be evil! Really?
@ meg
*Hmph*… Was what you said so bad that she had to delete it? Too bad that some people don’t realize that running a blog with open commenting means you have to take your lumps as well as the highs. I think I only deleted one comment on my blog; it was a harassing comment.
Lou Minatti - good for you! There are many ways of arriving here… as my search stats reveal. And if you type in Childfree support or Childfree blogs - you’ll find Like It is appearing too ;).
God(ess) (if you believe in a deity) may love his/her children but s/he’s not the one who is going to provide everything for a child to grow up healthy and happy. That is the job of the parent and I agree with the person who said that children can be accepted as a gift from God but that God will not punish if you don’t accept children. I personally am ex Christian for reasons I am not going to go into here.
Religion and the compassion it can teach would do one heck of a lot more good in this world if people were to come together over a shared belief in pleasing their God(ess), instead of becoming so obsessed with the silly little differences. However, there are idiots in every section of society and there will always be people taking things too far. Religion has done some terrible things but it also has the power to do a lot of good if people would just see past the little differences. I’m lucky enough to have some wonderful Christian friends who *are* accepting of the fact that some people don’t believe etc. and even of the fact that I’m childfree.
On the point of sheltered kids, I have seen a lot of documentaries on fundie families and the way in which they don’t teach their kids certain things/shield them from the world to me personally is disgusting. The one girl was not allowed to even have a cup of coffee with a male friend in university (she was studying to be a lawyer) and the censorship over things like Harry Potter as far as I’m concerned is going a bit far. I personally think that ignorance about other cultures/lifestyles can be one of the most dangerous things in this world. I had a sheltered non-religious upbringing but I’m so thankful I was at least allowed to see *some* things and ask questions.
Not all hope is lost-I grew up in a household obsessed with censorship/very overprotective of me and I went the other way so sometimes people rebel.
Also, there is always the fact that forbidden fruit tastes the best and some of these kids will be driven into the real world just because parents say that it’s off-limits. I once spoke with a guy whose family disowned him because he left the church and they had an unbelievably strict belief system. He had no regrets.