Childfree - Censorship In The Forums?
28 04 2008First of all dear readers – Hello – Britgirl’s back! And I had a fabulous time in England.
There are new rules at Bella Online. Of the Censoring kind. And several childfree members are leaving have left.
Bella Online - Married No Kids Thread
Bella Online - Married No Kids, later posts
I was informed by another childfree person of this development in the Bella Online, Married No Kids Forum. I do visit Bella Online from time to time (though I would not call myself as regular a visitor as some of the members of Married No Kids, mainly because of time). Each time I was there however I was impressed by the posts, and the open down to earth childfree discussion and conversation. And since several of my posts are linked there I get many hits on Like It Is from the MNK forum, even from articles I wrote many months ago.
Now though, that there have been “complaints” about the forum. These appear to centre on using certain words considered derogatory. “Breeder” and “it” when referring to people who have children and to children respectively.
You will have to read the post thread to get the full story – as I don’t want to present half the story. It’s not hard though to get an idea of what has happened. On one hand the moderator is considering whether she wants to carry on moderating the forum. On the other, and this is what really stopped me is that there have apparently been complaints against some of the members that post in the forum. What those complaints are about (or who they’re against) nobody is quite sure. From reading the posts it appears that those less understanding about the childfree have seen fit to complain.
Anyway, I encourage you to read through the threads… perhaps beginning with the last post. Some CF members are going to set up their own blog where they can talk and vent about childfree issues without having to watch their words. I think this is a great idea and the way to go. The comments on the forum were extremely interesting to me.
The childfree segment of the population - and indeed of Bella Online - are a small segment of the population - even though our numbers are growing. Yet our views are rarely recognized in society, they are all but drowned out by the loud voice of a child-crazed society that stubbornly believes that all women should be mothers, all men should be fathers and all couples should be parents. In short, pro-create or you’re nothing and you don’t matter. As one commentator said,
“we spend our lives keeping our mouths shut at work” - true, as family friendliness doesn’t include non-childed people unless we force it.
And now, increasingly in forums and online, the childfree are having to walk on eggshells to appease those who don’t like some of things we say.
We use disclaimers… if we don’t want kids, don’t forget the disclaimer that “oh we don’t hate kids, we just don’t want our own.”
Or, “I don’t mean your kid when I’m talking about the ill-behaved juvenile who’s just beaten up a fellow citizen.” Of course not.
We now have to specify, as another poster said, if we are talking about parents that
“it’s not all parents, just the stupid ones. Hey, my best friends are parents!”
We add disclaimers like “most childfree people like kids,” which may be true, except that there are some that, like or not DO NOT like kids. That’s their right. ( It doesn’t make someone a child-hater - or worse). And it’s odd that those who blab about liking so much kids have no issue with the steady stream of abuse meted out towards some of them and the equally steady stream of bad parents who are unable to see beyond their own narrow and often ill-informed perspective. Did I say narrow?
Now, that in itself isn’t my problem. I understand that people want to have children and for some odd reason many women feel incomplete without children as their raison d’etre. I know many parents give less than two minutes thought to why they became parents, but I get it. And frankly, I don’t really care.
The thing is I don’t visit parenting blogs, or fertility or kiddie blogs to get a rise or to tell them how great being childfree is. So I wonder why then we have to appease those on the other side of the fence? Do we now have to watch what we say in childfree forums and online? To make childed parents who happen to stray in feel “comfortable? Play nice, folks or someone’ll get their knickers in a twist about your childfree views and expressions. Be bland, conform. If that isn’t censorship (which is righteously denied of course) I wonder what is.
I read almost all the posts in the thread and they make fascinating reading. They were well balanced. I encourage you to read them as well.
Meanwhile, many are leaving Married No Kids to set up their own blog it’s a loss to the forum but at least they won’t have to worry about the thought police and being told what they should and should not say and do. It seems to me that there are enough signs of creeping censorship to convince childfre-ers that MNK is no longer the place for them to do share the ups (and in particular the downs) of their childfree lives. So, quite rightly they’re upping stakes and moving on to where they don’t have to restrict to appease.
Very sad that yet another childfree space may soon cease to be, yet I’m looking forward to even greater things from them.
Word to the wise. It’s impossible to please everyone. It just can’t be done. You are going to offend someone somewhere. That’s life.
Your thoughts.
Note - this post has been slightly edited - (but happily, never censored)!
First, the term “IT”, means we dont know the sex, male female androgynous. IT is a good word to use when the sex of something is in doubt. IT is gender neutral.
This blackbird is an IT, it may be male or female, i am not going to check.
Second, the word breeder, while that may be a term for the irresponsible parents we use, and its quite accurate. If the word is banned, can we talk about animal “breeders”.
I dont apologise for myself, thats why i have the uk cf blog, and the forum, the blog is quiet because no one but me posts, i have a membership thing, you join u can post topics.
I have given up apologising for my beleifs. If someone doesnt like what i say then they dont have to read it. they never have to visit me again.
I do love my cousins kids, and my cousins, they are great people. i know a few others, but i know some really nasty and evil parents as well. I did get into the habit of saying but some parents are nice.. on some boards, because the aggro i got by not saying it was totally beyond beleif.
so i left them, after being called a child hater, a conspirer to commit child murder (about an abortion issue). I dont censor unless they are nasty, with personal attacks. I truly beleive in the freedom of speech.
You will have to let us know the cf blog address. But i can see an upside, Look at the turtles website, when that went, people sprang out to do their boards, their forums, their blogs. Which spread the word.
Britgirl, thank you for your kind words. The new forum for the Bella regulars is well underway, we’ve registered a website and we have grand plans for our new “baby”. Stay tuned - we’ll let you know!
We’re all hugely disappointed that things at Bella went down as they did - it was a rude shock and a real slap in the face for all the intelligent people that posted there. A number of us feel sorry for those we’ve left behind, and those that would have benefited from the collective wisdom. But hopefully they’ll be able to find us in our new home, where they’ll be welcomed with open arms and without censorship and judgement.
In the meantime, we’ve created a new space for those in our “family” - and we do consider it a family. And to quote our glorious leader -anyone coming in to our site to trash-talk is “going to leave with boot-prints on their ass”.
Thanks for recognizing the fact that a large group of CF folks was recently shredded — our posts deleted, accounts disabled, and regular posters (the ones who remained for a while) publicly reprimanded.
It was a shame, but as Kat stated above, most of the regular posters have re-assembled elsewhere, and our moderators are working diligently on even bigger and brighter things than the initial move, which took less than two days. We’re really excited about helping out with new ideas that will extend far beyond what we had before.
As I told this group of “friends” earlier today: “I never knew how much I bonded with you all until that connection was threatened. You never know what ya got until it’s gone. I’m glad it wasn’t destroyed, thanks to a few key folks. We have had many threads relating to the beauty of picking your family (especially as opposed to making more family members just to have family). You all have become like family to me, based solely on the fact that in a few key ways, we think so much alike (no matter how different we are in non-CF ways of enjoying life like the books we read, our hobbies, etc.), and so many people just don’t understand. We can all be so different - from different parts of the world and from different cultures - but this one thing really bonds us. Luv you guys.”
Thanks Britgirl for alerting the CF world about this. I’m one of the regular posters over at MNK, and am not ever going back there, either to read or post. The “owner” of Bellaonline, Lisalowcarb, has decided that only “happy, healthy, positive CF posts” are allowed anymore, and is using her judgement to decide what qualifies (and she is not CF).
According to her, our “hostility” was creating an unwelcome environment for lots of CF-ers, and she claims to have received 1000’s of complaints about us. Funny that this was the first we heard about that. The regular editor, Kim Kenney, is now on leave, but as she left she assured us we were a “respectful and intelligent” group. So, what happened? We were one of the more polite CF forums out there, which was why I felt comfortable there as a longtime fencesitter and non-child-hater.
Almost all the regular posters have left, and the forum is now full of mommies, editors, fake identities who are likely editors posing as CF-ers to make it appear the forum is still alive, and the owner posting vacuous non-CF-relevant posts, and insulting those of us who have contributed before. It’s a big disappointment for those who felt it was a safe place thanks to Kim Kenney. It’s not anymore.
I wish I could go back and erase all my 1500+ posts, because I don’t think they belong there anymore. What’s more, the new crowd is pulling up our old posts and picking them apart, criticizing us for our feelings.
At least we will have a new “real” CF forum very soon.
It happens to a lot of forums, in a few they say what is “good” or bad. and that changes from one day to the next, i wanted to put a heinlein quote on one forum.
“Delusions are often functional. A mother’s opinions about her children’s beauty, intelligence, goodness, et cetera ad nauseam, keep her from drowning them at birth.” lazarus long quote by robert a Heinlein
that was considered WRONG, even though it was true.
This was a proper cf site, i wont mention its name.
Other sites can have a tendency to be dismissive of anything that the people who run it, dont know or like. I have had words when i saw some posts which were totally anti male, and when i tried to put the male view, i was ripped to shreds. lots of boards become cliques, and thats no good for anyone.
You have to make sure that everyone has a voice. and to not allow worth of comments linked to posts. which has happened on other sites. they dimissed you if you had 100 posts, only 2000 posts were best..
I haven’t been a MNK member, but I’m saddened to hear about this. Honestly, can’t there be SOME places just for the CF?
I would love to put a link to the new home on my web site (www.childfree.ca) when it’s up and running. Could someone drop me an email through my site?
Congrats on building your new home!
Heather, list-owner, CF and like kids on yahoo
I was a regular member who had 2002 posts. I had my “farewell post” - as Lisa Lo Carb Liar called it - deleted. So did everyone else. I tried to log back in the next day to find my profile had been deleted because the “user posted that the user no longer wanted to be part of the forum” or something like that. I said that we didn’t “need” Bella anymore, but I didn’t say I was leaving. She took that liberty upon herself. She also wrote that we left the forum because we commented that we were unable to discuss in a polite, civilized way.
Also, I am positive that the troll who started all of this was one of the editors in “disguise,” using hateful language towards us to bait us - we often use very rude language against TROLLS, NOT regular posters. That person was allowed more than 2 dozen posts (on MNK alone) of pure hatred and abuse before it was “deleted” (I don’t believe that.) At this point I’m sure that it was a complete bait.
And why did we never hear of any of these complaints?
If you go to MNK now, most of the posts are by editors we’ve never even heard of before. Also, there are suddenly tons of “new” posters - more than we’ve ever had at one time before. The funniest post is by the one who “bingoed” one of our members, saying she was sure that this particular CF member would make an excellent mother and should consider it. I think if you’re going to encourage your editors to post on MNK, you should explain what the forum is about.
It’s pathetic. I’m SO glad to have a new home.
One of the things I find interesting as that CF people think they can’t have “anywhere” to just go. Sure we can. The web isn’t only owned by or run by parents and parenting sites. Start our own! And it seems that what has happened over at Bella Online was just the catalyst needed to get a CF ONLY community started where there are no parents involved.
Of course the moderator/owner wants a CF community. She wants more people to her site to generate more income / revenue. I’m sure she’ll probably say she’s not making any money. But I saw quite a bit of advertisements the 3 minutes I was there.
Bella Online is not a community I ever visited. I didn’t even know about it until Britgirl’s post.
Quite frankly, and to be very very very honest, it is exactly for the broo-ha-ha that the m00mbies are making about the terms we use and the issues we discuss, and the MANNER in which we discuss being childfree, and all of their complaints, is exactly why I DON’T EVER visit a “childfree” community like one at Bella Online, or any other sites like iVillage, or any other place where there are parents. They bleed over into “our” space and decide they want to take over and control the community to their own satisfaction. Just like parents and breeders do. Control the world, encase it in foam, so their precious brats can be “safe.”
I only visit child free communities that are strictly childfree. i.e. they’re either on their own servers, or is the primary sponsor. It is bad enough that breeders take the time to come over to our web space when there isn’t even parental involvement. But to have a CF community among parenting boards, is like have a hen in the wolf’s den.
Honestly, if those parents are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO busy, and they are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired of RAISING OUR FYOOOTURE, how in the WORLD do they have the time or energy to be reading childfree boards? Srsly. Further, not just reading, but patroling and policing!
The owner of Bella Online is a parent. Just as parents insist that we CF people could never understand them and what they go through, so could she, or other parents, NEVER understand the CF community, our way of thinking, and even our lifestyle.
Remember, parents who say they used to be “CF” until they had kids were NEVER CF to begin with. They were simply childLESS. As we all know.
Also, before I forget, I agree with you, Britgirl, on all these disclaimers the CF have to put in our posts. I say, FORGET the disclaimers. No, I don’t like kids. I don’t like YOUR kids, I don’t like ANYONE’S kids - not even my cousins’ children. No, my best friend is NOT a parent. My best friend is childfree. Why? Because she doesn’t have kids and feels like I do! And yes, I think pretty much ALL kids are brats! And that means YOUR CHILDREN TOO. (Whenever a parent tells me, “Oh, you’ll like my kid. Snotleigh is a pretty cool kid.” Well of COURSE you think your kid is cool, you have a biased opinion.)
At anyrate, if the new CF community will be run BY the childfree FOR the childfree, without having to answer to parents (who aren’t even OUR parents, for Pete’s sake!) I’ll certainly be interested. Britgirl, keep us updated.
Good luck to everyone starting the new website. I’ll be sure to visit.
Firstly, you’re all welcome to post and vent here while you’re building your new home. Judging by the posts and the conversations I used to read in the MNK forum, I am looking forward to your new place. Let us know and I for one will link to it, as Heather has said - (and announce it).
Secondly, deleting posts seems mighty extreme - and rather vicious. I don’t know the forum rules but threads can be closed rather than deleted I’m sure. 2000+ posts!!
You’re right. It is pathetic. I’m sad it all went down that way, but I’m also a firm believer that when one door closes another opens and at least now you know what you’re dealing with. Now you can do your own thing!
And I guess when a non-CFer was head of a childfree forum… well, I suppose this is what we get. I suspect even the editors/fake posters won’t be able to match the traffic you created for that forum though ;). It’s not posts that make a community popular it’s those in the community who have the relationship and I doubt they can replicate that.
Not even with shiny, happy sheeple and shiny happy, positive posts.
CFSinceSix:YaY!! Excellently put!
“Honestly, if those parents are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO busy, and they are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired of RAISING OUR FYOOOTURE, how in the WORLD do they have the time or energy to be reading childfree boards? Srsly. Further, not just reading, but patroling and policing!”
Just one of many good questions
Can’t wait for the new CHILDFREE Community!
It sounds like a (for lack of a better word) clusterfuck of mass proportion.
I’m soooooooooooo grateful for my MySpace groups of peeps, several of us now have blogs. They are linked on my blog, which I don’t actually use TO blog. Long story.
Anyhoo — if support or encouraging words are needed for me fellow CFers, do let me know. I can help to rally the troops.
GREAT to see you back; I missed you!!!
Stepher
The last post in the MNK forum, written by the Bella Online (The Voice Of Women?) is quite a hoot especially the 2nd half. I suppose a case had to be made for the mass exodus of formerly loyal members. Before the thread is shut down of course.
Puts “playing nice” on a whole new level, that’s for sure. I think the childfree-ers are well shot of that forum.
Give us a few weeks to get things moving, and we’ll gladly link you to our new home. In less than a week, we have recruited about 30 MNK refugees to leave with us and help create an environment that was everything MNK could have been… and there are more who have emailed to say they’ll be coming along soon. We’re leaving a ghost town behind us. The technical and content work is getting started as we speak. Ideas are being formulated, and it turns out we had all the special skills and talents required to set up our own home right there in our MNK regulars.
I have to throw a nice, single-finger wave at BellaOnline and say “Thanks for helping bring together the people who are going to soon be your greatest competition for web traffic.”
One of us will be sure to link you to us as soon as the site is up and the forum open. Thanks for posting this entry and for your support!
Britgirl,
Thank you for your wonderful post. It was really very shocking the way it all went down at Bella. What’s left now is a bunch of moms talking about Julia Childs’ cook books, Katherine Hepburn’s movies and fun weekend getaways. What the heck do these topics have to do with being CF? I feel very fortunate to have joined MNK and to have met all the wonderful people (who are now mostly gone) and I look forward to the new site which will be a safe place for CF people to vent and find support with other CF people running the show. Thank you for offering to pist the link. We’re all really very excited about being able to create another CF home on the net.
Take care.
there are some forums, that beat down trolls. i know i sometimes have fun, doing that. as you know britgirl.
call me the troll killer.. theres a couple that self police, we have no administrators, no moderators, its self moderated. Which is how it should be. But unfortunatly we need disclaimers, we need to cover our backs.
Back to topic, all this bruhaha at bella online (i used to post there years back), does one good thing, it spreads the childfree out on the web, cf blogs, other cf forums. the more the merrier.
I was once member of MNK, but someone tore me a new asshole for using the term “moo”. In MHO, I believe the board was taken over by mommies. Obviously, they can’t read. Married. No. Kids. Quite straightforward. Apparently it doesn’t apply to them and they want to play thought police for the sake of the chyldrun…. That’s just my thought. Anyway, I found other boards where I don’t have to watch my language when I want to rant, and that’s just fine! Thanks for your great posts, Britgirl!
Mrs. Ogre
I’m not married. But sometimes I would lurk on that board because they had some good conversations. I thought it was on more of the tame end of the cf spectrum personally. I went and looked at the site again today. It’s all editors and a couple of newbies posting. I don’t see all of those thousands of cfers who wanted to post but were too scared. Maybe they just haven’t signed up yet?
It’s obvious that they are trying to make it look like the board is still alive. It’s kind of pathetic. From what I read in the thread MNK was the board with the most traffic. Boy did they shoot themselves in the foot.
What a dissappointment.
MNK was one of the first forums I visited and made a huge impact on my CF-choice. I especially remember the article about taking the road less travelled..
Its sad to notice that the earlier so “brave” Kim Kenney has been censored.
I am sad to hear about what happened at the Bella forum but it doesn’t surprise me. This is a site for women in general with a sub-area for CF. It’s bound to be scrutinized. I think CF sites are better off if they are independent, rather than moderated by non-CF people - in independent sites, CF can say whatever they want, however they want, without being censored. Having said that, I personally am not a fan of language like “breeders”. Not to say I don’t believe in venting (believe me, I vent a lot on my blog). I just think it’s a dehumanizing term that (to me) sounds like hate speech. Not saying people shouldn’t have the right to say what they want, or that they should be censored. Just saying I don’t like the term.
I have to thank Merc for sending me here, and I’m really looking forward to a true CF site. I don’t use those terms very much, but I don’t give a shit if someone else uses them quite frankly - they don’t bother me in the least.
I used to visit Bella a few years ago, back when it was truly a CF site and recently checked it out - my GOD - it’s pathetic. A bunch of childed people starting stupid fucking ‘honey threads’ to try and keep it alive. What a joke. And if I hear Lisa-ho-lard say one more god dammed thing about Pagans, I’m going to vomit in my mouth. STFU already about it. I hate when religion of any sorts is constantly thrown up. Everyone has different beliefs, leave it alone.
Britgirl: I love your writings and look forward to reading them. Thanks for having us here. I adore Brit humor!
Regards,
str8six
stephr - thanks, str8six, thanks and to everyone who has shared great comments here. I think the once-Bellaonline CF-ers will love the freedom of their new home - and so will we. I’m looking forward to visiting.
Childfreeee “I think CF sites are better off if they are independent, rather than moderated by non-CF people - in independent sites, CF can say whatever they want, however they want, without being censored.”
Agree.
I had never heard of Bella or MNK until I read about it here, so I went over to check it out and see what the deal was. I’ve tried participating in a few discussions over there (I’m one of the newbies y’all mentioned), but it’s completely lame. Some lady (who has at least 4 kids) told a CFer that lemon juice and vitamin C were excellent birth control options. If I tested out a hypothesis with that kind of track record, I would call it busted. (Either that or she knows it doesn’t work and it’s all a ruse “convert” a CFer to the stroller derby club.) It seems to be the same 8 people, 5 of which have kids…
Megs said,
LOL!!! Isn’t that the truth!!!! I would not be taking birth control advice from someone who has four children. Unless, I would listen to them on what NOT to do for birth control!
As for Bella, I went back. You’re right, it is lame. All those parents in the CF threads trying to “relate” to childfree people. Not going to happen. Just like they tell us we wouldn’t understand or know because we don’t have kids, well the same for them, they would NOT understand or know because they DO have kids. The CF forums over there look boring, contrived, not at all CF friendly/safe.
i used to be a member over there, one of the few men, But i found ot was becoming more i hestitate to say female orientated, Dismissing males views. This was a few years ago.
Which is a danger of a lot of cf forums, they forget that men can be cf too.They forget that it affects men. And some sites actually seem to hate men.
I am not surprised at forums imploding, it takes a lot of work, some self police, and they are the better ones, I moderate my forum, i do a hard moderation, but it runs me ragged.
Its when it gets into the personal politics rather than the good of the board, thats when it becomes like bella and a few others. They try to be friends to all, and it can get worse if parents get involved in moderating a cf forum, they become apologists for others.
I hve recently asked for volunteer moderators on my forum. So i am looking to expand.. BUT i know the dangers. So i dont apologise for what i say. If they dont like what i say, they can leave.
(true story, i had one poster(guest) object to the content of an offsite link not the actual link but other things they said on other posts of theirs. and said i should remove all mentions as some of their pages we offensive to them, I DIDNT and wouldnt)
Megs, that stupid bitch recommending lemon juice as a method of ‘birth control’ is too stupid to realize it’s methods like this and other highly acidic uses that creates the perfect environment in a womans’ cervix for yeast infections, odor and other undesirable problems. It completely throws the PH off balance and is NOT good. I could not BELIEVE she was so naive and uneducated regarding such unhealthy advice.
Yea, being a mom of FOUR CHILDREN makes me want to take advice on birth control from her - unbelievable.