Ooh, the moms are mad!

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/mad-at-dad/?hp&apage=3#comments

You have zeroed in and saved me and others a lot of wasted time. For that you have my heartfelt thanks!

@emilia – I am going to leave you to your “creeping feelings” about the “childfree cult” the “childfree propagandists” and your off-topic comments. I pleasantly invite you to move along now, and not waste time on this blog, because you’re not going to be allowed to stir it here. Goodbye!

Link:
http://gametheorist.blogspot.com/2008/04/children-yada-yada-yada-happiness.html
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Anonymous said…
When it comes to whether parents or the childfree are happier, anyone can find a study that suits his or her philosophy. For example, the Colchester study seems to find that at least for men, children make them less satisfied. On the other hand, a study last year in the American Journal of Public Health found parents to have fewer psychological problems than non-parents. One consistent difference is that people with children are less likely than those without them to commit suicide.

Regarding divorce and children, studies in almost every society find that childless couples are more likely to divorce. Of course this is not a reason to have a child to save a cracking marriage -something that in the end is unfair to the child.

I’d love to see Mary Benin’s original study and find out what it really said.

8:22 AM
Anonymous said…
Actually, I looked at the original Colchester study (and even contacted the author) and found that in no place did it say that childless men were happier than those with children – but nor were they less happy. The report said the presence of children did not increase men’s life satisfaction, but nor did it decrease it. As for the statement “women only enjoy motherhood once their offspring are packed off to school” (which does occupy a substantial time period of women’s lives), nowhere does the report state that women with children of any age are more unhappy with those without them.

I think the childfree propagandists are trying to mold this study to suit their own agenda.

Note: even if the report were to unambiguously state that parents were happier than childless people, that’s not a reason for a depressed person to reproduce as a way to bring happiness to their lives.

Emilia again

1:57 PM
Anonymous said…
Here is a study the childfree propagandists might want to consider:

Mental health and quality of life after genetic testing for Huntington disease: a long-term effect study in Germany.Licklederer C, Wolff G, Barth J.
Department of Rehabilitation Psychology, University of Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany.

Predictive genetic testing for Huntington disease (HD) might cause severe short-term psychological reactions in patients with poor mental health. Very few studies exist on the long-term effects of genetic HD testing. The aim of this study was to assess mental health and quality of life in persons who were tested for HD mutation, to compare mental health depending on the result of the genetic test (non-carriers, gene carriers, and patients with HD) and to identify predictors of mental health and quality of life via linear regression. The data were collected by self-report questionnaires. In total, 121 individuals participated in this study: 52 were non-carriers, 54 were gene carriers, and 15 were gene carriers suffering from HD. Non-carriers and gene carriers showed better mental health and quality of life than HD-patients but did not differ from each other. In non-carriers four variables predicted increased depression and low mental quality of life: low perceived social support, no intimate relationship, female sex and younger age. For gene carriers three predictors were found: low perceived social support, the expectation of an unfavorable genetic test result before the testing procedure and being childless. To prevent detrimental effects of HD testing on mental health and mental quality of life, specific attention should be paid to persons with limited social networks during genetic counseling. Assessment of expectations related to the test result and mental health prior to a genetic testing procedure may help to identify gene carriers at risk of poor coping after an unfavorable test result. Copyright 2008 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

I have a creeping feeling that the organized childfree movement is a bit of a cult in how they ignore or distort scientific findings.

Emilia

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(Russia)www.demogr.mpg.de/papers/working/wp-2007-025.pdf

(China)
http://www.demographic-research.org/Volumes/Vol7/11/7-11.pdf

(Norway)
paa2007.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=70418

(Ethiopia)
journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=53068

(Canada)
http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-008-XIE/2006001/main_death.htm
(Here is a quote from the article: Having children significantly reduces the predicted risk of first marriage failure: it is 73% lower than that for married partners without children, after controlling for all other variables in the model. This finding bolsters the fact that, although children can put a strain on the adult relationship, marriage dissolution is actually less likely to occur among couples with than without children, an observation which is true across most societies and cultures.)

Infertility in Shanghai: prevalence, treatment seeking and impact.Che Y, Cleland J.
Shanghai Institute of Planned Parenthood Research, Shanghai, China.

To assess the level of treatment seeking and impact on marriage of infertility among newly married couples of Shanghai, China, a total of 7872 newly married couples, enrolled between 1987 and 1988, were followed-up for 5 years. The prevalence of infertility (no fertile conception after 24 months of unprotected intercourse) was found to be 5.1%. Couples’ age at marriage, education, prior induced abortion, miscarriage, use of IUD or hormonal contraceptives and medical problems of both partners were associated significantly with infertility. About 57% of infertile couples sought infertility treatment and subsequently had a higher probability of childbirth (42%) than non-seekers (28%). Husband’s education, induced abortion and both partner’s previous medical problems were associated significantly with infertility treatment seeking. Moreover, infertile couples were 2.2 times more likely to divorce than their counterparts (95% CI 1.52-3.18). We conclude that infertility in Shanghai is modest, but a substantial number of infertile couples would not like to seek infertility treatment. Further research is needed on this subject.

For childfree (or “voluntarily childless”) marriages:

The connection between fertility and marriage is becoming more tenuous yet men’s involvement with children is largely determined and shaped by their involvement with women. In this paper I examine the influence of fertility intentions on union formation and dissolution. Married men who intend to have children are significantly less likely than those who do not intend to have children to divorce or separate. This suggests that intending to have a child does have an important effect on men’s decision to remain married. These men want (and to some extent need) a stable relationship in which to have their children and then to raise them. Among the married, there is some evidence that the child-marriage link is more important for men than women.

Children are not a guarantee that you will be cared for in your old age. The child, like my sister, could die before you become old. Or your child will need care his or herself for the rest of life.

That evening at dinner my mom told me my 6-year-old niece had asked her, “now that auntie and uncle are married, are they going to have a baby?” My mum just said, “I don’t know” in a rather cautious tone. Then she said, “I would love that, of course, but it’s YOUR decision. I learned my lesson when I pressured my other daughter that way!”

That really surprised me. I do remember her having grandbaby rabies, but my sister always wanted children anyway. Now her husband was much more reluctant, and guess what happened to their marriage very shortly after the baby was born? Even though my ex bro-in-law was immature and did some pretty damn stupid things, in retrospect I can only judge him so harshly. And he has done right by his daughter, at least.

So I guess I’m reaping the benefit of lessons learned by mistakes made with my sister. That’s unfortunate for her, but I’ve gotta hand it to my mom – she’s a very wise woman!

Love your blog! My husband and I are childfree by choice and am constantly being bombarded by the “when?” or “why not?” questions by my childed friends so reading your posts and the posts of other smart, savvy and childfree people always bolsters me until the next inappropriate inquisition!

I’ve been a lurking for a while and felt compelled to post after reading the article about the effect of children on marriage. I’ve seen quite a few women get pregnant to try to cement a relationship when it usually has the opposite effect.

I had a couple of additional thoughts about my friend’s situation. I agree that her husband is already gone and I really don’t know what she was thinking, though the child as relationship cement theory could apply here. He is biologically more the father’s child than hers since they used an egg donor. However, I’ve not registered loyalty as a defining aspect of “dad’s” character. When she announced her pregnancy, I almost choked on my drink. She had never ever wanted children and when I had mentioned that I wanted to get an English bulldog her comment was, “but they slobber and they need a lot of love and attention.” Uh, I think the same applies to children. She never told me that they were attempting to get pregnant. Perhaps because she didn’t want me to question the situation given the history of the couple.

I apologize for this bit being off-topic but her age is also very worrying. Having been born to a mother who was 43 years old, I can say that I do not agree with the trend of women over forty pursuing science enabled motherhood. The majority of people simply do not have the same energy in their mid to late forties as someone who is in their twenties or thirties. While the news is rife with stories of celebs over 40 having twins, the reality is those kids will be raised by nannies and the parents have significant financial resources.

My friend will be almost 70 years old when her son graduates from college, assuming he can afford to attend. An only child, he’ll be starting out in the world with the additional challenge of figuring out how he’ll care for his elderly mother.

Even if I could have the financial stability to have children right now, the “shock”-change to my life that children gives would be brutal.

What I would suggest is that the intrusiveness and pressure from society to pro-create whatever the circumstances can bring unnecessary stress on a couple but honestly i think that if couples are in agreement with each other on not having children, they can stand united and tell people to butt out. If the two people aren’t in complete agreement on being childfree… then there’s a problem and they both have to work on what that problem is.

Having children isn’t an automatic… it’s just that, until now, most people never question it. They have children simply because they can (and because they want to).
Good luck with the new blog

Lee – that relationship is over before it even began. He’ll be off. But maybe she only wants a kid? Because it seems pretty clear that he’s not “reliable husband” material – not by a long shot – yet she married him. Have to stay I don’t know which is more stupid… having a kid at 48 or believing this guy has her interests at heart. I’m sorry for the kid. S/he’ll have a 48 yr old single mother. It deserves a lot better.

Lurker – welcome back! Hmm the dealers generation. I can believe that. Just another reason I’m glad not to have kids. If i was a parent, there would be no dealing, and no negotiation.

Dorian Gray… what can I say? A good time to have a kid? They must indeed be cluless. But there’ll be an awful lot of broken relationships when the reality kicks in. Thanks for sharing the article.

B_conrad.. anyone having kids now is going to have a tough time, unless they have a trust fund stashed somewhere. But I’m sure that won’t stop them because they tell me “it’ll all work out” Yet I’m hearing of people struggling. It always amuses me to see how people have kids to make “themselves” feel better. And we’re supposed to be the selfish ones! A good friend of mine who has an 18 month baby has been forced to give up a very lucrative job a few months ago – because all her money was going to paying the childminder, leaving her with… well, not much. her husband earns a very good salary but also works very long hours. She’s one of the few who actually wants to go back to work… it’s impractical right now. And she’s well aware that every week out of the job market counts against her and make it harder to get back in. i think she will be able to get back in myself, but still things are far from easy.

On another note I see many more comments on some UK sites from people saying that they are holding off having children because the math shows they can’t afford it. Even though these are not the norm it’s good to see that some are considering before jumping.

I worry for the welfare of the child as well as my friend who earns very little as an inner city school teacher. I don’t trust that her “husband” is committed to her and I feel that the idea of being a proud papa is not going to change that. I don’t think she thought at all about what would happen if he has another epiphany and decides he doesn’t want to be “stuck” with her or their child and leaves her alone to raise an infant to adulthood as she closes in on 50.

It boggles my mind how cavalier some people are about parenting and how little thought they give to how it will impact their primary relationship or how their already shaky primary relationship will impact a growing child.

I wish there were enough supports in place so that people would choose to have or not have kids, not to avoid stress, but to gain a good life – however defined.

It is unfortunate that our culture automates us to have kids. It would be just as wrong to automate our thinking so we do not have kids – as a savings plan or a way to keep things calm.

Some of my best choices have been risky and stressful. Being childfree is no walk in the park, nor is fine living ever cheap. But, all things considered, childfree is right for us. But it is still risky and stressful.

Here’s to thinking it all the way through. The post you shared is certainly part of the puzzle.

Thanks.

The more you get under the skin of a parent you will see the worries, exhaustion and longin of a second chance. In these financial times it makes a little extra sense to not be a parent. Of course most parents also love their children very much.

I have come to the conclusion that I like children and also can spend time with them while same time feeling happy…but like so many other clever CF have said before me…it is bless to give them back when the day is over…!

I heard an interesting comment today from a parent I met. She said todays generation was the “dealers” generation. She ment that you cannot achieve anything with the youngsters without first discussing the terms with them.

Britgirl, the “How Could He Not Want to Have Children?” Caught my attention. It was painfully well written..:)

Have a nice week!