If you’re childfree, almost as soon as you say you don’t want children, you’ll be told soon enough that:
“you’ll change your mind”. It’s bad enough when it’s a stranger, and takes significant effort to ignore when it’s family. But what if it’s your boyfriend of nearly three years who never wanted children either?
A reader (we’ll call her Carla – not her real name) emailed me recently to ask my opinion. Did I, she asked, think that it was possible to convince a skeptic boyfriend?
I did offer a very brief opinion. However I thought it would be far more helpful for “Carla” if you gave your thoughts and insights as well. So I asked if she’d mind me sharing her story on Like It Is. She welcomed the idea. So here is her story. The only thing I changed was her name. Everything else is “as is”
Here’s Carla’s story:
“First off, I just recently discovered your blog and love it. I wanted to ask you a question since you have been writing and reading about childfreedom for quite some time. Hope you don’t mind.
My boyfriend and I have been together 2.5 years and it’s been amazing. He is 10 years elder than I (22 & 32). He has never wanted children and as I became and adult and realized children are a choice and not a destiny. I made my choice that I didn’t want kids, pre-boyfriend. When we first learned of our views on children all was well. However, recently in dealing with the pressures of peers and family, as you so eloquently describe, I have become worried. I am told, “You’re too young to have made such a decision.”
Lately comments like these and stories of 60 year old single women sans children haunt me and I wonder if I really am inclined to make such a decision. So I chose to express my concern to my bf. He replied that I probably will change my mind because all girls want babies. When asked what he will do about us when I predictably “change my mind” he responds that I will have to find a new man.
This is quite appalling to me, as I explained to him… it appears then that he is waiting for me to change my mind and thus end our relationship. Is it possible to convince such a skeptic, my own boyfriend, that I’m committed to a childfree life? One great point you make is that it’s not easy to go against status quo, but it’s possible. With any decision it takes a genuine amount of consideration and exploration into possibilities, I want to be able to think and talk out my decision with my bf, but I’m not trying to imply I’m on the fence. He just may not understand my reasons are derived differently then him.
I would really enjoy your opinion.”
Over to you. What do you think of Carla’s situation? What should Carla do? I’ll add what I said a little later on, but I know she is keen to hear your thoughts.
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{ 52 comments… read them below or add one }
While I think it’s a pity that Carla’s BF is not convinced of what she says, maybe he has seen/heard of other many othe men who thought they were with childfree minded women, and later found out otherwise?
If he doesn’t want children, and Carla doesn’t either, I wouldn’t let the issue take too much importance. Just let time prove him wrong!
And no, not every girl wants babies. Maybe Carla’s BF should be shown a couple of CF websites
Oops sorry, meant to write “seen/heard of many other men…”
I’m really not that surprised by this. There are a lot of men who were raised to see women as inferior and to assume that they are all the same (basically, brainless and useless) and that they all conform to the expected stereotypes. And the stereotype in question is, of course, that all women are crazy psycho baby-wanters. The age difference (particularly her much younger age) may also have something to do with it. Not that she is too young to know what she wants, but he may think of her as too young to know what she wants.
She is completely right to be upset by this. If he doesn’t understand and believe her about this after two and a half years, how can she trust that he understands anything about her?
This might be a good time to sit down and ensure that they both want the same things out of the relationship. If he is just waiting for her to get baby crazy so he can break up with her, that is not a good foundation on which to build a relationship. Time will prove him wrong, certainly, but this could be a sign of something deeper.
Of course, they could both go get sterilized to prove their commitment to each other and their childfree future together… (I’m mostly kidding)
Dear All,
I think she has doubts about her CF status. If my CF girlfriend said to me “I wonder if I really am inclined to make such a decision” I would be worried, in a similar way to her boyfriend. I think he has been very, very honest with her, and their are worse foundations to a relationship than that. Seems like he is being clear in his CF status and she is unsure.
Reading this, I actually had to go back and make sure that the author of the letter and her boyfriend were, in fact, together for this amount of time. I would understand skepticism at a month-inclination stage, but going on three years? Exactly how far is the extent of this guy’s mistrust?
The age difference also plays as a factor. She knows what she wants, but in his mind, “no children” and “aged 22″ may take some time (and effort) to compile and initialize, so to speak. What’s in his mind is, “She’s 10 years younger than me, this is great, but what’s going to happen 2-3 years from now?” If he’s dated women that had changed their minds before, this is a precautionary reaction. Hardly detracts from the fact that to a woman, this may be an insult. It’s as though a woman is incapable of knowing what she wants unless she’s this or that age, which really is insulting. Joan of Arc can lead an army as a teenager but heaven forbid that a woman under 40 (or 30, or even 25) chooses to *gasp* not reproduce!
What I am seeing – and not liking – is the predictability presumption. It’s as though he’s waiting for her to change her mind…and then do what? Leave her? Make a big, huge stink about how she doesn’t know what she wants and she is “trapping” him?
They’ve dated for years. If by this time he doesn’t trust her, I severely doubt he ever will.
Given that she’s only 22, I’d be way more concerned about the effects of societal pressure than the validity of her decision. I don’t know many 22 year olds who will stand up in front of their family and friends, and not be affected by the derision and dismissal that inevitably accompanies CF’dom. It would be human nature to second guess yourself, and we all know just how strong and unrelenting that pressure can be.
It’s a shame that her BF can’t take her wanting to explore the subject with any sort of equinamity, though. The process of talking through and being reassured that there’s nothing wrong with you is an important part of ‘coming out’ as a CF person. He’s not being particularly supportive, and that’s sad.
You can stress yourself to death worrying about what’s going to happen in the future. None of us have a crystal ball, and we can only make decisions on the basis of the information in front of us. Let it ride, and see what happens. If things change in the future – well, that’s for dealing with then.
With no disrespect to “Carla” i think she is too young. Thats too young for being in relationship with the 10 year older guy. It seem for me they are on different stages in life.
Maybe he is not very supportive, but I think he is simply honest and decided about his own choice to be CF. Perhaps he could have been more “mature” and made a decision for Carla by not going into relationship with her because he obviously think she is not old enough to make decision about being CF?!
I also feel compassion for Carla because she is under the pressure many other CF experience and her final decision might also be forced upon her by the boyfriend.
I think that her man, is being a normal guy. No he isn’t a perfectly enlightened feminist who believes every woman is a rock. But he is being totally honest–if or when, she changes her mind, he is perfectly sure he doesn’t want children, and he won’t change his mind. A lot of 22 year olds do change their minds and decide they do or do not want children when they previously did. A lot of 22 year olds don’t stay with their boyfriends of 3 years another 10 for reasons having nothing to do with children. I think if she is enjoying the relationship now, and she currently does not want children. She should stay with him. This is not about proving someone right or wrong, it is about what she wants now and what she will want 10-20 years from now, which is irrelevant–who can know for sure.
At 22, I very much planned on having children. I studied childbirth, painted pictures of women giving birth. Played with babies. I planned to work full time while my first husband was a stay at home writer raising the kids. I left him, he proved not only to be a danger to children, but also he fell in love with another woman, and after a while I found another man. In the meantime my health changed, I learned that having children and my medical condition was bad. I recalled that my mother was often to sick to spend time with me, and I didn’t want to do that to myself or someone else. And I fell in love with a man who also didn’t want children. I am 28 now, a lot changed in those 6 years, a complete turn around to be precise.
Carla, just be you. Be who you are and enjoy your relationship. Are there any reasons your boyfriend might question you? Perhaps you have changed your mind on important issues in the past? Maybe you are in college and still developing a lot of your philosophies? It might not be you that he doesn’t trust, but time.
Carla, you need to ask your boyfriend what he will do if you DON’T change your mind and you mature into a wordly-wise woman who won’t take any nonsense (including bullshit stereotypes) from her partner.
What if, as a childfree woman, you become the major breadwinner in the relationship?
How about equal sharing of household duties if you cohabit and/or marry?
Does he have an escape clause at the ready for that scenario too?
If so, you might find that losing him — and standing independently — is not so terrible after all.
What if, this is possibly the worst thing i could hear a boyfriend, partner, s.o., anyone saying to someone else. your weight is your business so long as you’re healthy. you’ve been through a rough time and your boyfriend obviously doesn’t know how his words are effecting you. if he doesn’t understand after you tell him this, dear is right – reevaluate how happy you are. personally, this would be all three strikes wrapped up in one and i’d walk away as soon as i could.
I’m not sure he’s worth keeping. His ideas that “all girls want babies” shows a lack of respect for women. Not only is he refering to you as a “girl” (at 22!), he doesn’t respect your ability to make these choices. He may also not be as invested in the relationship as you are. He’s made it clear that he expects you to change your mind, at which point he will dump you. He’s disrespecting you and he’s avoiding taking responsibility for what he sees as the inevitable end of your relationship.
But I agree with Childfreelife on the fact that you should enjoy your relationship, if that’s what you want, because at your age you’re unlikely to be with your current boyfriend forever. Just don’t become too attached or start dreaming about marriage (I’m sorry, that’s a total stereotype, but I’m sure you know what I mean.)
I agree with Irishgirl’s post: “His ideas that “all girls want babies” shows lack of respect for women” and the rest of what she said.
You are an adult… and yes, like everyone else, as an adult you can change your mind about anything: wanting children, wanting to be married, wanting to be in a relationship with who you’re with, going to college for something different than what you chose at 18, or even just going to college sometime later in life if you haven’t yet. Those are only a few decisions.
However, as a 22 year old, and myself as a recently graduated and married 24 year old, I have made some heavy decisions that will effect my life forever. What if someone told me that I would change my mind about my career choice to go to art school? I actually am youngest in my class and had to make the decision on my career and what school I wanted to go to at 17 and started college at 17. I got married at 23. I haven’t heard ONE person tell me that I will regret/change my mind on getting married or regret/change my mind the school and career choice I have made…. but, I have had TONS of people tell me that I will regret or change my mind about wanting children. So, why can I make these hard and weighty choices about career and marriage but not about children? It doesn’t add up.
Bottom line is, you are an adult. You make your own choices and you know what you want. Yes, things can change…but usually you know if you want to get married, what career path you want, and if you want to have children or not. Those are weighty decisions and YES you can make those choices now. If your boyfriend doesn’t believe you, I think that you need to explain to him how this is just a lack of trust on his part. You are an adult and can make many weighty decisions… why can’t this just be one of them? Do some research on women living the child free lifestyle and, if this part of your relationship means so much to you, have a discussion with him on your findings about motherhood myths (there are quite a few amazon books on it) as well as other findings on how unhappy many parents are, and give your own educated reasons for not wanting children.
I’ve got to add that I am not impressed with this guy either…not because he is expressing doubts or concerns, but because of his ignorant stereotyping of all women. (And calling them girls! Grr!)
He’s old enough to know better. Girls do not have babies. Some women do. And some women don’t. Treating you like a featherhead at the age of 22 is just plain insulting. Sorry, if someone treated me like that I wouldn’t be waiting any longer to find a new man. Sorry, Carla. That’s probably not what you wanted to hear.
I’m really bad at advice for the main reason that I see both sides of most arguments. I do want to point out that in my own experience, I am a completely different person now at 26 than I was at 22. If I had stayed with the choices I made for myself at 19, never allowed myself to be independant at 23 when I divorced my abusive husband or worked a few years as an RN gathering my own thoughts and beliefs I would not have been as happy today as I am right now. While I believe that important decisions can be made early in life especially I think in the introspective and thoughtful young person those decisions are still fluid as you yourself as a person is still fluid. On the other hand, I came to my decision about being childfree at 24 so not really that much older. I think it has to do with life experience too. I do not doubt you have made this decision for yourself knowing what you yourself want.
Your boyfriend on the other hand from what I can tell needs a stiff talking to if not a cloud of dust in his face! I only mirror what others have said – if he’s just waiting for an excuse to leave then why stay around now and wait?! Surely if he’s that shallow to not put himself into your relationship after this amount of time and claims he could drop you like *that* if you ever did make a decision he wasn’t happy with then I’m sorry that sounds borderline abusive to me. Who is he to second guess your choices while holding your very relationship hostage to his preferences! Basically it reads ” no kids ever or I leave”. Is it also “baked chicken every thursday night or I leave”, “you do all the cleaning or I leave” etc etc?? Sounds to me like you already have a child Carla…he’s just in his 30’s.
Also wondering how your relationship began with you being 19.5 years old and he 29.5? Again that goes back to my “I was a very different person at 19/22 than at 26….”
Ok, here’s my two cents, if he’s really serious about not having kinds, then let him get a vasectomy. It takes the decision out of her hands, and he doesn’t have to worry about being “Oopsed”, by her or anyone else. Unless of course, he’s a coward just looking for a way out, but doesn’t have the courage to say so.
I hesitated posting about my experience, considering the sharp responses so far against Carla’s guy. But I thought it would be unfair to leave her hanging without getting a guy’s perspective on this. I am almost 26, my girlfriend is a few months older, we have been together for 4 years and plan on getting married later this year. Of course, we are both adamantly CF. While I have gotten into the ‘community’, reading sites like this and laughing about BINGOES, etc., she has always taken CFdom as a private and personal decision. She came to it herself before meeting me, and I had already decided against having kids before meeting her. We were a perfect match – her on the pill, and me fresh from a vasectomy!
Our relationship has been wonderful and I am truly happy. Part of the problem of being happy, though, is the doubts that nag at you. “How long can this feeling last?” “Do I deserve happiness?” “Do I deserve someone so great?” “Is it really OK for me to be this satisfied?” Regrets of the past and the memories that haunt every human who has lived can creep into your mind from time to time. Now, my fiancee is a strong, independent woman. I cannot stand any woman who is not at least as intelligent and opinionated as I am, and as in all things she is my partner. I do not seriously doubt for a second that she would bow to pressure from anyone to have kids. That choice, as I said, was made a long time ago.
And yet I couldn’t seem to help myself from quizzing her at times about the future. Most often under the guise of jokes (although she does not find it funny), I implied that she will get bitten by the ‘baby bug’ and leave me alone in the dirt. Melodramatic fake weeping included, it is like all jokes – part truth – and played mainly from my fear of the miniscule chance that this would actually occur. I was not “looking for a way out” but was making myself comfortable with the idea that nothing lasts forever. After enough times though (I can be quite a blockhead, I guess) she told me how my saying that made her feel (not good) and I promised to cut it out. Since then, we have not had that discussion again.
That period in our relationship is over now, but it helped me to understand that I was testing her. Not in an appropriate way, but I was testing her loyalty and commitment. As in “what if everything changed for you, what would that mean for us?” I find it hilarious that a forum full of women don’t seem to understand that, when it is typically women who grill their potential partner on loyalty and commitment within minutes of meeting (my fiancee, not being the insecure type, never did this to me). In any case, I now know that the answer doesn’t matter. You know how the saying goes: if that is a bridge we ever come to, we will cross it then. It wouldn’t be the end of the world, just of that happiness.
I have matured enough to realize that being grateful for our time together would be enough even if the worst case scenario happened. So why worry? We are together until we aren’t, whether it is death or children that separates us. So the answer to Carla’s question is that she should first address her boyfriend’s real concern: tell him that you love him and are committed to a relationship as long as he is. Tell him that you came to the CF decision on your own but are happy to have found him to share it with. Tell him that you respect that his reasons for being CF are different than yours and you expect the same in return. Tell him that you look forward to a future together, and mean it! Love recklessly, young lovebirds! You have so much living left to do.
Great post, god_forbids! I agree that there exists the possibility that the guy here isn’t a total jerk but is testing her, or just stating a plain fact – This is a non-negotiable, and if you change your mind about children, I will not be in a relationship with you. I don’t like the fact that he is closed off to discussion, though, and that when she wants to talk about the subject – the pressure, the future, the possibility of having children, he just refuses to engage and talk to her. This woman is clearly looking for support of her decision and to bounce ideas off a likeminded, loving person, and instead she gets “If you aren’t CF I’m leaving.” That may very well be true, but if he loves her and really wants to be with her, he should be able to discuss this topic and let her just explore her feelings and thoughts in a safe environment. The worst that can happen here is that she decides that this topic is undiscussable and she is CF and that’s that, while having some niggling doubts. Then of course she will wake up a few years after getting married with insane baby rabies and everyone will be unhappy. If he can be nonjudgmental and let her talk freely, she will reach a conclusion on her own that is comfortable for her, and then they can decide what’s what.
Great post god_forbids!
“We are together until we aren’t” is how I see things too, while obviously hoping it lasts forever!
After reading most of the other comments I was beginning to wonder if I am too acceptant and forgiving when it comes to how men react/tease/test women.
So yes, Carla’s BF’s behaviour may be inappropriate, but I just can’t crucify the guy without knowing how he was brought up, what prior experiences he had, etc. Britgirl gave us Carla’s side of the story, we don’t know what his is.
I have to agree with Withnail, to me it reads like Carla is unsure of her CF status and while her guy could have been a little more tactful, he’s being honest with her. Perhaps she needs to think more about her decision. The line about 60 year old women sans children made me think that she’s seeing this as a bad thing. I wonder if at 22 she’s really thought about all the implications for her life. Instead of listening to parents, friends and family spout the usual societal propoganda, Carla needs to sit down and listen to herself and how she would feel to remain childfree for the rest of her life. Is it scary or is it freedom? Does she see the possibilities opening up for her in such a life?
Once she’s settled in her own mind, she could then confirm it with her boyfriend, let him know that she is committed to her decision for herself.
I have some sympathy for the boyfriend; I had a guy I was dating for a year suddenly announce one day that he wanted kids. I was around 25 at the time and although pretty sure I wanted to remain childfree, I spent some time thinking about it. I decided it wasn’t for me and I told him no, I wasn’t having kids. That was the end of that. If something like this has happened to Carla’s boyfriend previously, I could see him reacting out of memory instead of from his experience with Carla.
What very interesting comments. Thanks to god_forbids for sharing your experience as well.
My initial response to Carla, was that if this was her boyfriend’s reaction then it seemed he had made up his mind already and it didn’t sound like she’d be able to change it so trying to convince might be a waste of energy. I’m very glad I threw this open to everyone to comment on though, because the different perspectives are great. And Swissbarb is absolutely correct, we only have Carla’s side of the story thus a big missing piece.
I found myself making a better effort to understand where her bf may be coming from. As someone has said, we have no idea what his own experiences have been – has he been in a relationship where the woman turned the tables and suddenly wanted children? Has he had a bad experience at some time? Has Carla’s need to discuss these issues/thoughts/doubts/fears set off warning bells in his mind? Does he see Carla’s questioning as the writing on the wall? Coupled with her age and the fact that as peers and other people start to apply pressure she might indeed change her mind? If I had a dollar for each time someone has told me “all women want babies” I’d be rich. Of course it’s untrue. But if that’s the way he’s thinking then really he should not be in a relationship with Carla in the first place – since the result, to him, will be she will change her mind.
Only he can answer those questions. But he is being honest with her in response to her question.
Now, I also thought he could have been a little more gentle and been willing to discuss things with Carla even if his outcome would be the same – if you love someone and are in a relationship then I believe discussion of such a deal breaker should be fundamental, regardless of the outcome.
Then again, I told my husband (who was more cf than I when we first met but who was very willing to discuss it) the story and asked what he thought. He was even blunter. He said “he should get out now – what is he still waiting for, the writings on the wall.” And Carla needs to be with someone to whom the CF issue isn’t fundamentally important either way. He also said it’s an example of a woman asking a question, expecting honesty but not liking the honest answer when they hear it.” Interesting.
The fact remains that Carla needs to explore and re-affirm her feelings and, it seems, her bf isn’t particularly interested in exploring them with her and thinks the outcome is a forgone conclusion.
One thing is clear though… you can withstand pressure from peers, society, family and friends, and go against the status quo. We’re all examples that it’s possible. If you are in a relationship however BOTH of you need to be on the same page and supporting each other. If that support isn’t there from either partner, if you can’t present a united front on this issue, it’s very difficult.
I think it’s easier to be single and childfree than be in a relationship where one partner is pulling in the opposite direction.
Thanks again for all the comments and please continue to add your thoughts.
hi Britgirl,
Thish sounds as if Jules saw a side to him that bothered her and felt close enough to him to say something. The alternative would have been for her to act passive-agressive or play games. That said, without having been a fly in the wall it might have been the way she approached him, and some guys tend to get defensive about this stuff.
Either way, relationships are a growing experience. Jules, the fact that you’re questioning your behavior speaks loads, and if your boyfriend really cares about you he’ll eventually be open to talking this out after he calms down. So I ask you 2 questions – how old is your boyfriend and what’s his relationship track record? It sounds like a maturity issue on his part.
We all have to search ourself for the right answer. Carla can talk about being on the fence and take all the time she needs to find out what is right, but she cant expect the boyfriend to make the decision for her.
I have been searching my own motives the last 2 years since my gf do want to have children. Even for someone who like children (but dont desire full time parenting) the whole process has been unecessary stressful.
It irritates me that people try to make a big deal out of a choice to not reproduce. But I will never be “forced” into having children.
I think Carla can choose to stay with the bf but cannot expect him to change his mind about children and will need to live with the consequences of that. If that does not feel right for her she should of course break out.
Maybe this blog is only for girls, however I would like to throw in my two-bob’s worth, and also ask a question. Firstly despite the cf protestations, all women are biologically hard-wired to want children. However there is a small minority who’s rational logic actually overcomes their hormones and realize that motherhood may not be the meaning of life after all. Carla’s bf is justified, even after 30 months (not 30 years) relationship to be unsure if Carla will change her mind. There are no degrees of “pregnantness” – you either are or you aren’t – however desire for motherhood is not so definitive – it’s not a yes or no thing – it is a question of degree. Not many women would contest that no-matter what the circumstances, never want children and maintain that position forever. It is a matter of degree, influences, opportunities etc. Arch feminists do not recognise that women are easy to influence but the law does. In Australia (and I suspect manty other countries) coercion is a legal defence available to women for serious crime, but not for men. What does that tell you?
Now my question. I have been engaged to a very rare Brazilian woman. Rare in so much as she does not want children (99.9% of Brazilian women do). We are now at the pre-natal agreement stage and the subject of children has come up. She knows I have had a vasectomy and also that I put sperm in the sperm bank, just before. Yes just like women, men can change their mind too – however unlike fundamentalist anti-male-ists, admit it and are not insulted by suggesting I may change my mind in the future. But I digress. All of a sudden my fiancée is saying she may want to have kids in the future, while I am wondering why I am still paying for sperm storage. I do not want to lose her, since it seems to me the only available women who don’t want kids are those who already have them. What should I do?
as a man, i grew up with the expectation of being a father, it was the thing to do. i realised late on that children were not for me. its hard to break that conditioning.
i think she is unsure of a lot of things, his comments could be taken as sexist, or just the use of term of language. i get called love, and hun, does that mean they love me, no.. same with girls. that could just be his way of speaking, with no subtext.
as other posters have said, we only know her view. she may be putting more emphasis on certain things. subconciously
Roy Stone:
- I don’t think women are hard-wired to “want” children. Because that would mean that those who don’t want them have something wrong with them. Women’s bodies are hard-wired to bear children. Wanting them or not happens in the head.
- The fact that a law states something does not make it right. Many laws make no sense at all, and in this case it should definitely apply to both genders.
- Did you really mean to write pre-natal, or pre-nuptial?
we are more than just bodies, we have a mind, that can override most things.
“You’ve heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap? There’s an animal kind of trick. A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind.”
while nature does have some say, humans have the intellect to deny personal nature. its what makes us Human.
I too got some snipping done, but did not file the backup. This makes the choice “easier” because its no longer just to change my mind without going through more advanced procedures.
Anyway…the feeling of being in control of my life again, just minutes after the procedure some 4 years ago, was priceless!!
Roy: At least you have the choice and no chance to be oopsed or tricked by emotion in the right moment.
I have not yet seen any research which conclude that all women are hard-wired to biologically want children? And after reading this blog I doubt it even more.
If women were hard-wired to want children, I doubt there would be so many CF women, nor would our bodies need to flood with oxyticin while giving birth in order to promote bonding with the child. Who knows exactly where the nature/nurture boundary lies? And the insinuation that women are easy to influence makes it sound like we are rather soft in the head. Sorry Roy, but your comments are way off-beam.
Mercurior: Love the Dune quote! It’s one of my all-time favourite books. There is a lot of good stuff in those pages.
I think Carla’s bf has probably had a previous experience or two where he was assured his girlfriend was CF and then changed her mind. This doesn’t excuse his dismissive tone, but I think we’re all the results of our own experiences and that kind of baggage is hard to throw out at times. She doesn’t sound 100% convinced she is CF, and I am sure he can sense that.
My 2c.
-AM
Roy –
This blog is for women – and men. All women are not hard-wired to want children. That’s as much a myth – albeit a popular one – as the one that insists that women only find happiness if they become mothers. unfortunately many believe it.
I also don’t think rational logic isenough to explain the fact that some women simply don’t have hormones raging at them in the first place. Can’t advise you on what to do re your fiancee, but it seems you both left open the option to change your minds. She just seems to have exercised her options early. I’d even suggest she never really “never wanted kids…” perhaps she was just biding her time. If you want to stay with her, better reconcile yourself to being a Daddy down the road because that’s what’s in your future down the road as far as she’s concerned. Even if you call the sperm bank and tell them to “accidentally” leave said sperm on the counter, you’ll come under pressure to reverse your vasectomy. If you really don’t want children – ever – I think you need to be looking at someone other than your fiancee.
Mercurior – welcome back!
glad to be back, needed to get my head right..
see theres a problem with roys idea. and its a HUGE one.
genetically we are pre programmed to do certain things, we all agree on that. but we have something that can trump the genetic preprogramming.. can you guess what it is .. its intelligence.
genetically i am told to breed breed breed, i know because i can see beyond the NOW that my genes say is important, that what would be a bad thing. we have the intellect to choose what we do in certain specific areas.
look at maslows heirarchy of needs.
you have the phsyiological needs of food,water, breathing, sleep, excretion, Homeostasis and sex. these are NEEDS (apart from sex), without these we are gone.
nothing is mentioned about having children. having children is way up there and hell it isnt just children its family, which includes people on here, like my good friend the britgirl. we are family. nothing in that heirarchy ever says about children. we dont need them. and a lot of us dont want them.
brains trumps body
my mother did not told me anything about not wanting me to be part of her life but heard of her of a lot times of being one of the best thing that happens to her life. That’s maybe the reason why I believe that women should have a child. It is not an obligation or requirement to become a real woman but I believe that you will never know the feeling and the reason why other wants to have a child. Its not a rule nor a law but something you should be in to realize its value. If I will be asked about the feeling of Carla’s BF, I understand him, maybe he wants to see some meaning to his life, a continuity of something if he will have his own child from the woman that he love so much. What can I say, I am lucky I got a mother who wants me in this world to be born.
i have never known the feeling of a sledgehammer on my knees.
i have never known the feeling of a screwdriver pushed into my ear.
but i am not a real man unless i feel that.
are you serious care, so women should have a child, what if they are not capable, what if they have genetic problems, what if they know they will be bad parents.
A woman should only have a child if she (and the father) truly want one, are prepared to care for that child until adulthood, whatever may happen, and knows they have the means to support that child.
There is no other good reason.
Having a child because other people think you should, or that you are somehow missing out if you don’t, are some of the WORST reasons to do so. Not every parent thinks of their child as the best thing that ever happened. And finding meaning in life does not hinge solely upon reproduction.
hi mercurior. of course you won’t try anything if you think if it will harm you. i just don’t understand why is it that having a child would be compared to sledgehammer and scredrivers. is that so bad that it is really a pain on the knees. if there’s a genetic problem that’s nothing we can do about it and that’s the point what if there’s no genetic problems then why not? then bad parents, how can you say that they will be if they will don’t have a child at all.
Oh lor’, Care, are you serious? Do you actually understand the definition of ‘childfree by choice’?
There are lots of people out there who are wonderful parents, happy with their choice. There are also some seriously bad parents who should never have been allowed to breed and who have condemned generations to miserable and unhappy lives. There are many more who fall into the ‘middle ground’ – basically good people who have realised that parenting is hard, stressful work and maybe something they should have thought about a bit more before they reproduced.
The point is, is that it’s a huge GAMBLE and one that CFBC people have decided not to take, for a variety of reasons. Me, I don’t like children, so it makes sense that I choose not to be around them – I don’t force my horses on people who don’t like them, or tell them that they would be wonderful horse-owners and that it will be different when they have a horse of their own!
I’m not entirely sure why you’re posting on a CF board when you obviously have a very child-centric world view, but might I suggest that blog etiquette demands a little respect for others’ opinions and life choices?
As for Carla’s issue – I agree that this guy sounds incredibly condescending (I would take great umbrage if my OH suggested I didn’t know my own mind!) and agree with another poster’s suggestion that he get himself snipped if he’s that concerned about the so-called omnipresence of female fickleness.
@Care – I am wondering if you are a genuine poster or a spammer… just going by your rather suspect url. Nothing personal… like your site. At any rate this is a childfree blog…if you believe that women should have children you’re out of place here.
Hi Britgirl, I just can’t help myself to say something about it. Sorry if I offended anyone in anyway. Maybe I am just out of place, it is because I just stumble upon this site and managed to see only this post and only too late for me to realize that this is a child free blog. Again sorry. If you wish you could delete my comment if you think it is not appropriate.
@Care: anyone can post here if they have something genuine to add to the conversation. They don’t have to be childfree. Just bear in mind the etiquette and rules… on every page top right there’s a short intro on what this blog’s about.
having a child would hurt me, and hurt others, just because i know something is bad for me, doesnt mean i should do it, or force it upon any partner.
knowing something is bad and not doing it, is better than doing something and only realising afterwards what a huge mistake you made.
thats where tha analogy of the sledgehammer and screwdriver comes in.
I am not sure why this person care is posting here. Yes, some of us believe that a screeching child who will distort our bodies, ruin our marriage and deplete our finances and kill our dreams is like a sledgehammer to our knees. We come here to be around like minded people. And obviosly if society and our mothers couldn’t convince us otherwise, someone who is barely literate most certainly will not. Ugh.
And what sort of dumbass arguement is “you won’t know how great it is until you try it”? What if it’s not great, just like we are pretty sure it isn’t? Are we supposed to drive over to Minnesota or whatnot and deposit the screaming thing on a hospital doorstep? Oops, I tried it out, not for me, moving on now…
I find this “hardwiring” argument pretty hilarious. Women CAN bear children, but are not “hardwired” to. Up until recently, no one had a choice, really (and in many parts of the world, still have no choice – unless someone can really think abstinence for life, within a marriage, is a real alternative?) How many millions of women have had abortions? How many have died, been seriously injurned, or banished by their families for that? Yet they risked it all to not have a child! Hello! Millions of wome throughout history risked their lives, reputations, finances, health, marriages, traditions, honor, and the threat of eternal damnation TO NOT HAVE CHILDREN! How’ s that for “hardwiring?” Women have not wanted children so badly as to tear themselves apart with clotheshangers and throw themselves down flights of stairs! Yet, “all women want children.” All women want oxygen, yes. All women want children? No.
I agreed with Lurker “With no disrespect to “Carla” i think she is too young. Thats too young for being in relationship with the 10 year older guy. It seem for me they are on different stages in life.”
They say age doesn’t matter when two people are loving each other. But sometimes, people have different views about life. Carla is too young for his boyfriend. I am proud for the two of you for having a relationship for 2.5 years.
Can you live as a happy family without any child or children?
Ok, I am going to pipe in. I am a 40 yr old CF woman in a long term relationship with a 34 yr old man. 6 years isn’t much of an age difference at our age, tho’. And sometimes, he’s more mature than I am.
I’m not going to say what Carla “should do.” I’ll make a suggestion, however. I have not read all posts, so if I repeat what some else said, consider this another vote for that suggestion then.
I suggest she stop trying to convince him.
I used to hate it when I was a kid, through my teens and early 30’s that I’d hear “You’ll change your mind” when I would mention that I did not want children. Especially when I was younger than 30.
I get it now.
While I won’t tell anyone they’ll change their minds when I hear that they don’t want children, I am always skeptical. I can’t begin to count the number of women (yes,it is usually women) who, when in their early 20’s, say they do not want children, you see them a few years later you find they want children. And are in the process of having them. It’s pretty sad.
That being said. When I first met my boyfriend I let him know early on that I did not want children. Period. He said he didn’t either. We’ve been together 4 1/2 yrs now. When we found out last summer that his sister was pregnant, it gaves us another opportunity to discuss children. I also asked him again, point blank, if he still does not want children.
As I sit here making this response, I just now realized that in the last 4.5 years I have, periodically, brought up the discussion of having children. Not so much because I want them, but because *I* need the reassurances that he still feels the same and has not changed his mind.
You can never really know what is in someone else’s head. Aw hell.. sometimes even THAT PERSON doesn’t know what’s going on in their head. Something can happen, a switch and be flipped inside, and BAM! They want kids. Or. They want out of the relationship, Or. SOMETHING.
One of the things I have learned in life is that there are no guarantees. While yes, you should be able to, and can, trust your partner, the only thing or person you can really know is yourself.
I know I do not want children. Period. End of discussion. This I know for sure without doubt.
Because of that, I have told my boyfriend to let me know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE if he were to EVER have an inkling of wanting children. And the reason being is because I would leave. I am not going to waste my time with someone who is unsure. I need someone who is sure.
So. Yes. I am prepared to have my wonderful relationship end with the man I truly love because having children is a deal breaker. That’s not to say it won’t hurt a lot. That’s not to say I won’t cry, or I can easily move on and find someone else. But, I feel so strongly about no children that I am not willing to compromise my Self for someone else.
Carla may very need to be prepared to have her relationship end if *her* partner decides to have children. People change their minds all the time. That, or they just didn’t know their own minds, or, they REALLY wanted children and were secretly hoping their partners would change their minds but realized they won’t so they’re moving on.
All I would suggest is to enjoy the relationship she has now, in the moment. If he needs reassurances she still does not want children, then give them to him. It may be something he’ll need. Also, if Carla needs reassurances that HE still doesn’t want kids, ask for them!
A relationship is an ongoing process. It’s not any one moment in time (but yet, it IS!) That is evident in the fact that people do grow to love their partners more as time goes by. So that tells me that relationships and feelings within relationships are dynamic.
All I can know is that I am firmly childfree. My mind is made up, and I really have no intention of changing it. That is, really, all I know. And because I can’t always know what my boyfriend is thinking at any one point in time, I “check in.” Since this is a CF blog I’ll stick to this topic. So periodically I “check in” with my boyfriend about his feelings on children, whether he’ll change his mind, how he’s doing with whatever pressure he may be getting (none, I think his parents realize we’re simply not having children), how we’re going to deal with his niece (due in about a month) and babysitting, etc. etc. As with any topic in any relationship, this (being childfree) is an ongoing conversation where discussions, reassurances, thoughts, and ideas need to be brought up periodically.
Good luck!
Both my first and second ex-husbands thought I would change my mind.
(I think that says it all…)
You can never compromise between no children and some. It requires some degree of emotional maturity to realize this fact, which Carla’s boyfriend clearly does. She should appreciate his honesty and life experience in this matter. He probably isn’t waiting for her to change her mind, but keeps the possiblity in the back of his mind so that if she does, he won’t be completely heart-broken.
The problem with the “you’ll change your mind” arguement is that too many women throw out the words “I don’t want children”, when often they mean, “I don’t want them now” or “I don’t want them with this man”, and even if they really don’t want them, some percentage of those women near the biological point of no return and then do change their minds. Makes it harder for the rest of us who have weighed the pros and cons of having children and came up with a long list of cons.
I have a bit of the same problem, except in reverse. I am 22 and he is 29. He goes back and forth about wanting and not wanting children, but deep down I do believe he doesn’t want children. I want children. We have been together for over two years and I don’t know what to do. Do I stay with him and hope he wants children or do I leave him for someone who does what children?
How can anyone consider Carla chidfree? If she were truly childfree, she would ignore the “you’ll change your mind” comments and wouldn’t be considering breeding to have an unpaid slave to wipe her ass when she’s old. Her boyfriend is right to doubt your commitment — and if he has a brain in his head should dump her now before she gets pregnant accidentally on purpose. No, I’m not a man — I’m a woman who has seen too many allegedly childfree women sell out because of familiar pressure, fear of a lonely old age, and a desire to escape working for a living by breeding. Cunts — all of them.
I think your post is a bit over the top. People don’t choose to be confused and nobody sits there and plans how they are going to break someone’s heart, or fuck their own life up.
When everyone you know tells you you’re wrong, you have to be either very sure or very stupid never to doubt your decision. I spent three years making my decision to be childfree and I spent a lot of that time questioning whether everyone else was really right, and that I would change my mind. Eventually I realised that the only things I questioned were things other people had said, and that I had no doubts of my own. So now I feel the decision is made.
I think you could tone your language down just a little and try to offer more compassion.
Or perhaps they just changed their minds, as people sometimes do. There’s nothing admirable about someone remaining childfree against their better judgement and wishes because of the perceived or actual hostility of others.
I don’t appreciate the use of such inflammatory language, either. Haven’t we been on the receiving end of enough accusation ourselves? No need to do the same to others.
I can’t help but get the feeling that this Dave ( or maybe Attu ) coming at me, Carla indirectly. I remember in puberty that he and I undoubtedly had irresistable fireworks whenever we encountered one another, This kind of attraction is love..and in our case,
definately love at first sight. Maybe it was onesided, and only I felt that way. But his kisses were giving me a different message, and I was hopelessly in love. He wonders how strong my feelings really were, and if there is any meaning behind it all; in my opinion, yes, there must have been. I’ve had revelation that David and Carla were made for each other; how all the boys flirted with beautiful Carla, and ALL the girls threw themselves at
hearthrob Dave. Yet when Dave and Carla met at that so very awkward and unsure age, they didn’t know what to do with this magickal chemistry. The two of them were unaware of just how strong each of them were, and what they had to offer each other. I see a real compliment of natural essence; two strongly sexed youngsters who didn’t as yet quite realize how much power they held between the two of them, and it was a very special thing. Jealousy from envious peers, and even some siblings, and Carlas parents were
afraid that if Carla WAS in love, she could concieve and perhaps have a child in the earliest teens.
In hind sight, Carla came to see that it was NOT her vivid imagination that even old old buzzards some old women teachers- “old hens” in elementary were hateful of her vivacity, femininity, beauty, strength, and innate artisic gifts-Carlas phenomenal health and energy, her youth; no financial obligations, a fast learner, with an entire life ahead of her….oh how they wished that THEY were Carla, and not themselves….Carla remembers the cruelty, the neglect, the false accusations; the overt and deliberate attempt and a large degree of success in breaking down every sense of her identity and worth..( for, if one doesn’t know their capacity, then they are defenseless in just about every aspect of their own, childish lives, their rights, and the ability to escape the vicious jealous, abuse. Sounds just like Cinderella…even though she was of rare breeding, was nonetheless locked up in a rocky tower . That was Rapunzel,,,,or, Snow White who’s cruel stepmother the wicked queen, ordered the huntsman to bring back her heart, but he instead told Snow to run, run, run far away because the queen could not rest until she was dead-so that SHE would once again be the fairest in the land.So she ran ran ran
to clean up a little cottage and look after an interesting assortment of little people.
So, what happened to her in the end? Eventually she regained her health and life, after
they rid her of the poisoned apple. Poor little Snow White had been so terrified in that deep dark forest…its amazing she even got through all of that trauma; and, she had for sure been traumatized. What does Dave think of Carla attempting to contact him, after all of the trauma? Why does she do it? What does it mean? Maybe Dave wonders if he would live up to Ms. Carlas expectations…or, maybe he empathizes with her, and has a genuine curiosity about what became of unfortunate, kidnapped she. But it is soon daybreak, and sleeping beauty needs her rest…
*the faerie tale goes on….
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