The comments on Like It Is are not only fascinating and thought-provoking, they’re often worthy of being posts in and of themselves. For that I can only say a huge thank you to everyone.
I saw this comment from my post Navigating the Childfree Dating Maze by
I have never really asked this before – except in the context of it being harder to find someone who didn’t want to partner up and immediately start adding to the population count. I know many women for whom marriage was merely a stepping stone en route to having kids… their partners where chosen for their apparent “potential” to “be good providers and fathers” often in that order. Settle-down-and-have-kids is still as much a mantra as it always was. As CFSinceSix says, within a couple of years, the women were pregnant. Often the women haven’t been averse to moving things along by getting pregnant first, quoting their biological clock as their reason for being in such a hurry to procreate. As we’ve seen from the last few articles, children don’t necessarily bode well for blissful living – but often considerable misery anger, unrealistic expectations, resentment and eventually divorce. And strangely a childhood desire to have “lots of children” is often all the reason that’s needed to have them – no thought required.
I know that in my case I was quite happy to remain a singleton until if I didn’t meet Mr Right. But since having children wasn’t high on my list anyway, when the question came up we looked at it objectively. And, here’s the key thing. We considered the impact children would have on our relationship and enjoying each other as people was more important than listening for some biological clock – or other people telling me how wonderful it was to have kids.
How about you? CFSinceSix has posed some big questions within a big question and I’m curious too. These childfree questions could also fill several posts, but rather than break it up I’m going to leave it as one post and ask people to share their own thoughts.
Over to you.
Props to CFSinceSix… for the comment, the questions and for the fact that this post more or less wrote itself! Here’s the post:
You know … what I find interesting about people is that people who want children couple up rather quickly, while those who are CF don’t. I’m really curious as to why this is.
Is it because people who want children have that one huge interest as a commonality and so it is easier to over look compatibility in other areas?
Is it because people who are CF tend to look at the other person as a whole rather than a possible incubator or sperm bank and so we know what we’re getting into and so we are more informed about the other person and aren’t so easily swayed? Could it be possible that this comes into play because we don’t have some biological clock we need to beat?
Remember, those who want children are in a race to beat a clock. I know a friend of ours was. When he FINALLY found someone they moved quickly to get engaged. I told my S.O. that I give them two years, JUST TWO from the announcement of their engagement this past Christmas for them to have already popped out a brat, or she’s pregnant.
So, considering we, the CF, are not in some race we must finish before some certain time in our life, could it be that we aren’t in as much of a rush to find someone? To simply settle for Mr/Mrs Right Now rather than Mr/Mrs Right so that we could “settle down?” Maybe that’s why we may come across as being more “particular” of our partners. I suppose when you have to start breeding before the machinery gets too old, you are more forgiving of flaws in the other person and start to hope they’ll change and “grow up” once the brats start arriving. (I’m also thinking of Britgirl’s blog entry entitled, “Red Whine or White? Moms are Angry at Dads” as I type this.)
I’m no sociologist so I haven’t studied this, but these are questions I’ve come up with as to why the CF have a hard time partnering up. I think there is more to it than a numbers game of not enough of us out there. While that is true, and we all know dating is a numbers game, I think the fact that since we don’t want or have children, we are forced to discuss other topics of life and get to know each other, rather than those who want to breed can take up their time by talking about breeding and all that entails.
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{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }
I agree that the numbers are against us. IMO, there are an alarming number of male breeders out there of the “Og make baybee, thog dick werks” mindset.
As for why the childfree find it tougher to partner up/wait longer to marry – as CFSinceSix said, there is no biological clock to beat. Because we aren’t in a mad dash to beat that clock, we can afford to take our time and get to know the other person. It logically follows that we would be far less willing to settle for second best.
I also wonder if some childfree people simply feel less pressure or have less desire to marry. Having already rejected a major part of the LifeScript (TM) ie kids, it’s not that surprising some of us will decide “Hey I like my life just fine the way it is” and realize we don’t have to get married either. Just a thought. . .
Like it’s been said, we do not have to race towards the goal of having baybees so we can take our time. Also, I think CF people tend to value and like themselves more, to realize they are not lacking anything by not reproducing, and maybe it also means they do feel a lesser need to couple up.
I am sure many women settle down with a man just to have kids, not because that man as a whole person is the one they were looking for.
I imagine that as soon as you get pregnant and have kids, you always have something to talk about as a couple, for the next 20 years and more.
If you don’t have kids, you’ve got to be with a partner with whom you’ll enjoy discussing many other topics. My BF has many flaws (as I do), but he’s the only man I know who can talk and talk and talk and go deep into a subject and we have the most interesting long talks.
We do not want to get married: I would say yes if he proposed but I don’t need it, and he doesn’t want to, having seen many of his friends’ marriages (with kids) turn sour and end up in divorces.
I would like to get a registered union though (so that in the eyes of the law one of us is not considered a “nobody” if something happens to the other), but they’re not yet “available” to hetero couples where I live.
I think sometimes people don’t realise that they are childfree until later stages – sometimes by that point they may be out of the usual “meeting people” networks where you meet lots of people your age (university, internships, travelling, meeting friends of friends of your roommates, etc.). By that point, you can be in a place where you don’t have as many networks to meet new people (i.e. well on way in career, bought a house in one neighbourhood, etc.).
I think it would be a good idea if the childfree option was presented as part of sex ed in high school – with all the benefits that our lifestyle entails (not twaddle of said “childless” people). This would get people thinking earlier – ‘hey wait a second, I always assumed I would have kids later – but do I actually want any’? Then maybe it is something they will be willing to articulate at a younger stage and/or earlier life stage.
With social norms today, childfree status is not usually something noticed/brought up in idle chit chat, like at cocktail parties or international conferences (I mean in the casual intro/dating conversations, not bingo moments where unfortunately that does seem to be a norm). So, unlike looks, gender, or clothing – something people can notice from further away; or smokers breath, career or voice/accent – all of which come up at first introductions, there is nothing that “marks” childfree people as “someone to be interested in/not interested in”.
Maybe as well as childfree cards we should come up with badges that replace “Hello, my name is…” with “Hello, my name is ________ and I am childfree”
Any other suggestions? Secret handshake like the Masons? Invisible ink? Is there a childfree pheromone?
Sorry, one more post. I think another thing is childfree people tend to look inwards for fulfillment/contentment – their goals, their hobbies, their choice of legacy for the planet, whereas those who “need” children are looking outward, to satisfy a need they can’t find inside themselves, and to make them more comfortable by fitting in with social norms. So for a childfree person if someone who complements their goals and needs in life happens by, great, but they don’t look to that person to fulfil a hole because they are secure in the knowledge of what will satisfy and enrich their lives. Which means like others have pointed out, they don’t have this pressure to “settle” in order to get that fulfillment – although it would be nice to have a soulmate, certain deadlines don’t necessarily have to be fulfilled. Childwanters tend to believe the hype that ‘children will fulfill the hole, be your greatest achievement, yada yada’.
What I am trying to say in a longwinded fashion is that two childfree people may not be “superactively” looking for a mate like the breeding types, and therefore may be less likely to meet.
Besides, as Liz pointed out, I am sure subliminally the cavedude types can spot the “I need to breed to have a purpose in life” types quickly in order to spread their seed, whereas I think us childfree are a little more subtle, send out different signals.
To me, a childfree lifestyle requires a much higher standard for selecting a mate. For a woman looking to pop out a kid and let herself get fat while scrubbing a toilets, really, any man will do. He has to have a job and be a nice person. Well, most people are employed in something or other and most are nice by common standards. A litter of brats will keep the couple busy and separate for most of the day running around like mad and they have instant conversation topics and instant answers to everything – Where do we go on vacation? Mom’s house or Disney Land. What do we do with savings? A college fund. Where do we go to eat? Kid friendly hell-holes with unlimited buffets of nuggets! How do we spend our free time? Exhausted, at some kid functions. For the childfree, it’s much more important to find someone interesting and compatible, with similar world views and hopes in life, because it’ll be just the two of you, eating meals, making conversations, and there are no instant “right” choices. Where do we go on vacation? What do we do with our money? How do we spend our free time? We have many more choices of answers and a lot less distractions to make us oblivious to our partner’s differences from us. We truly need a soulmate, whereas people with children just need a tolerable companion.
Og217 put it quite succinctly as far as reasons go. The childfree have both a higher standard and a certain unwillingness to let those standards slip. I’m sure that there are a lot of CF singles who hear, “Well, why don’t you lower your standards? You can’t be so picky, you know, you have to settle eventually” or similar tripe.
The question then is: Why should we settle? And settle for what?
By eliminating breeding from their lives, the CF free themselves up for many pursiuts – travel, art, wine tastings… There is a certain want for an appreciative partner, someone who both knows the person and knows the pursuit. It’s an actual relationship, rather than a need to find a ‘father/mother to my children’.
As a note, I often find that people who settle would inevitably later say, “He/she is not the person I thought I knew.”
Another great post. And its very nice to come here and breathe fresh CF air.
Many interesting comments and could especially reckognize og217`s thoughts.
I feel sorry when I see a women with a slum of man. Not few times have I caught myself thinking that she did compromise simply to get the family-package. But..its allowed to use whats inside your cranium..called a brain.
Funny…just got a message from an old friend. Asking when I was going to get one..(i.e. kid)…since I am now an adult..
Good news (?) is that my gf on her own initiativ now claims she does not want children. She does not want to put a child into this cruel world and also dont want her child to inherited potential medical conditions. Of course I had some difficulties to understand her decision since I know she likes children very much, but she claim it is not me who forced this decision upon her and that I can not count on her changing her mind even if I would. I suspected first some reverse psychology, but at the same time she sounds sincere.. Anyway the immediate response was a felling of great relief since we now can start focus on the possibilities in our relationship…
Thanks, I wanted to capitalize on my flash of brilliance and thought about this some more. The childfree people really need a soul mate – no other way to spend every day together otherwise. We want someone to spend lots of time with, we enjoy our alone time, we need to adore and be adored. The people who are with their “children’s father / mother” don’t need a soulmate, they just need and seek out a partner. A partner doesn’t need to understand everything we do or feel, a partner doesn’t need to adore us or enjoy our company or want to spend lots of time exploring with us. A partner is someone who brings needed strengths (money? ability to scrub toilets? ownership of a minivan?) to our union and provides something of value to the partnership making the entire venture function better than if we were to go it alone. That’s all. Half the time they don’t need to like each other. They don’t need much alone time. They just need to function well together to run the business of childrearing. I mean, think about people you work with or for – the job gets done and that’s that. How well do you really like any of those people who make the best work partners for you? For me, my best work partnerships are with people I politely like well enough to tolerate. While a serious dislike would be a detriment, a serious “like” would just cause us to waste a lot of time shooting the sh*t, enjoying each other’s company… and with other things to do (a work project, childrearing?) who has time to enjoy each other’s company?
It’s also not as easy as one would think to find another person who doesn’t want children. My two first husbands thought I would change my mind and eventually turn to the child-side. (Because I’m a woman? Because “everyone” wants kids? Who knows?)
I would agree, too, that people who want children are probably going to tend to be more traditional, more interested in marriage/family/house, and interested in having children while, as I’ve heard said often, “still young enough to play with them.”
I agree with Liz; I’ve run into a lot of men who want to breed. I think it comes down to the fact that there are just fewer childfree people around. The childwants (I love that phrase!) are much more plentiful. Besides, just because someone is childfree doesn’t mean you’ll click with them. I really do think it comes down to the numbers.
If the percentage of childfrees is around 20%, as people state, that still means that if there’s ten guys at a dinner party there will only be two I’m interested in talking to – and eight that will be written off right off the bat. That’s not good odds right there …
I do agree with the other posters though, especially the point about how it’s likely that you’ve already rejected the LifeScript about more issues than kids. There’s a certain thought process that goes with that, a certain willingness to make hard decisions and be OK with it, and a waving of the middle finger in the direction of public opinion. If you’re OK with standing up to be counted as different, chances are that you’re OK with not being in a relationship unless it’s the “right” relationship. Your relationship is for all the right reasons, not because society says we must all be shacked up by age X.
I’ve never understood why people breed with unsuitable partners simply because they’d “make good mommies or daddies”. Holy crap people! Once the kid is born, that person is going to be a part of your life for the rest of it. Every tme you look at the child you’re going to see the parent. You’re going to tie yourself to at least 18 years sharing this kid with the other person. Why would you do that with someone who’s only a “tolerable companion”? If this is TMIJITW, why the hell would you trust it to some deadbeat who just happens to be Mr or Mrs Right Now? If it’s the big deal everyone screams it is, shouldn’t you be holding out for as close to perfection as you can get? It makes my brain explode …
For what I had thought of in my own circumstances, I figured I had two big marks against me: no children wanted and I’m an atheist with a lot of defensive problems on that front. With both conditions putting me in a minority and being out of the social circumstances where I was likely to meet people (college, etc)… the numbers were against me. And I’m not exactly a social butterfly. Never have been. I did manage to find someone when I wasn’t looking, and I’m still amazed about that. But that was after a long time spent single and resigned to that fact. The few times I did actively try to look for a relationship was when I could do the kind of screening that regular social gatherings seldom provide: the online dating sites where kids/religion/smoke/drink/etc are neatly checked. But even when you find someone who fits the checked boxes, there’s no guarantee that things will click. And with a smaller pool to start with… I think the numbers really matter.
I think CF Overseas brought up a great point about looking inward for fulfillment. I’ve always considered myself very independent and, while it would be great to have someone else around, I can get by on my own. I did it for a long time. I don’t NEED anyone else, and I’ve never felt like I did. Do I like having my boyfriend in my life? Yes! I like having someone to share my life with, especially as more and more of my friends have kids or don’t live nearby.
I’ve recently been surprised by some of my friends, though, who are now in their mid-thirties and single and starting to worry about having a family and the LifeScript. I’d never thought of them as child-wanters, because the topic had never come up in the years of knowing them, but I’ve recently found out that a couple of them do want children and haven’t found Mr. Right and are getting worried that it will never happen. That limited time frame. But they haven’t settled for Mr. Right Now (bravo for them), and I think I’d subconsciously put them in the probably-don’t-want-kids category.
I love the idea of the childfree option being taught in school.
Maybe it’s because like you said — you were content to stay single. Maybe it’s the “if I get married I get married, if I don’t, I don’t” attitude that some CF may have. I know I had the same attitude.
Of course I’m married now lol.
I think it’s a combination of things. Obviously, we’re a minority in society, though when you think about it, we’re a pretty large minority. So we don’t run across eachother too much.
There’s also the lack of education about the fact that one can choose to NOT have a child, and still lead a happy and fulfilled life. Seriously, I don’t have enough fingers, toes and teeth to count the number of parents who’ve said they “just had” children because “its what people do”…good robots.
Mostly though, I think it’s how we are. We’ve already thought about some major things in our lives, and made choices accordingly. We’ll avoid people who are overtly babywanters, and many of us are more than willing to end a relationship with a partner who reveals themselves to be a babywanter.
Most importantly, from what I’ve seen, child free people are pretty happy with themselves and by themselves. From my experience, it takes a lot of work to get to that point, and sometimes it feels like “What happiness will I give up if I partner up with this person?”
Interesting post. I think it’s partly a numbers game, and also the result of wanting to be more choosy since you won’t have the distractions that having children bring. It is not uncommon to see couples (including my own parents) grow apart and leave the marriage once the children are grown up and they realise they have little or nothing in common and that all those years of raising the kids masked that very fact.
Wow. Um. I’m honored, Britgirl.
I know for a fact that I was single for so long because I didn’t want children. The numbers game – yes. Dating is a HUGE numbers game. And when you meet someone the likelihood that they are CF is very low. Sort of like a random drop on a computer game.
I’ve said it before: just because two people are CF it does not mean they are compatible. I firmly believe that people who want children are more forgiving of another person’s flaws because they have time working against them. Then, they have children to keep them preoccupied. Where as for the CF, we don’t have such a … uhm … “luxury.”
Taking children out of the equation in a relationship really exposes a relationship, IMO. It exposes what compatibilities the two people have, along with their differences. We can’t hide that we have nothing in common by chatter of what little Bratleigh needs for school, or that Snotleigh needs to go to soccar practice. Since we don’t have children involved, we can’t talk about them. And when two people have nothing in common, well … they won’t talk.
I know it was like that for me. Incidentally, I “fudged” one my “non-smoker” requirement over “fudging” my “childfree” requirement. I’ve had people say I “compromised.” Maybe. But hey, he has since quit smoking. You can’t give kids back.
Incidentally, since the original response I made that inspired this blog entry by Britgirl, and the date of this blog entry, I’ve had a friend who has two children separate from her husband. She has a 9 month old and a 3 year old. Know what her comment to me was last night?
“I can’t believe I stayed with him so long.”
*koff*
I think the people who want to get married but not have kids is a very small number. I have found it tough to find someone with the same interests as me when it comes to starting a family.
ewww john! nasty link!
a lot of men, dont think about having kids. its what they say because they think women want kids.
its like having a group of people each thinking the other is thinking this but in reality they arent. i read a story many years ago about a terrorist cell infiltrated by all the security services. but they didnt know the others were security. so they kept daring each other to do more stuff. to get the goods on them.
but they found out they all were spies.
thats what a lot of men do. we assume women want kids, women assume men want kids. when a lot of the time they dont. I know before i knew i was cf, i would have said if she wanted kids let her have them. Kids were never part of my thinking.
I HIGHLY recommend eHarmony for meeing possible partners in the respect that you can claim very clearly wether you want children or not and can clearly see if any of the “interested” parties have the same goals you do. True I am biased and with very little research involved into this…I’m just going off of personal experience. I saw many a profile that was ‘matched’ to me but in reference to kids, they wanted them or already had them. The proverbial ball being in my court, I chose not to communicate with those matches and evenutally found a wonderful man who feels the same as I do. (oh and we got engaged on Valentines day yay!) I agree, it’s a number’s game. It is like Vegas, we’re just playing the odds that society has given us. To some extent I think it’s that we’re more self-sufficient as a group of people in that we aren’t looking outside ourselves for happiness also. For those of us who are sure of our choices, meeting the right guy means that guy meeting our expectations completely and we’re not settling, not on something that important to us.
sometimes you feel the odds are against you.. and you dont bet.
I think it is partly a numbers game. Added to the fact that hardly anyone “self identifies as childfree offline until we meet someone like-minded.
I like the idea of introducing myself as hello I’m… and I am childfree. It would probably be a conversation killer but at lease it would sort stuff out early on. As it is, the childed get to introduce their kids into any kind of conversation whether it’s warranted or not while we still do everything to play it down. I hasten to add that I play it down because I don’t see why anyone’s reproduction faculties should be a factor in a business conversation or social gathering where the subject isn’t kid oriented. Unfortunately most parents seem to think the complete opposite.
I do agree that without the excuse of kids, there is nowhere to hide. You either nuture that relationship for what it is or you don’t. Kids provide a safe hiding place for so much…any wonder that after they leave the couple splits up? Mind you, now they are not leaving.
Great comments as always everyone.
hmm… after reading a lot of these comments, I looked back on my *short* life (I’m 24) and thought about how long I had been desiring a child free life (since 15), the people that I dated, and the fact that I recently was married this summer to someone else that is child free…
I think that, in general, men definitely have it harder than women in terms of finding a child free partner. I’m not saying that men don’t want to have children, but I think that it’s ingrained in women much sooner to want them (I mean, we get baby dolls, kitchen sets, and Barbies to play with, little boys get toy cars, planes, legos, etc.)… and I think that many more men will question their want to have children where women don’t.
In addition, since I’ve been married, it has been WOMEN that have been asking ME when we were going to have a baby… never asking my husband. Only one man out of at least 20 women has given me the ‘you need to have children/you will change your mind’ guilt trip attempt…. and it was still given toward me, not my husband.
I also think that people with stereotypically ‘higher’ career goals are more willing to rethink children as well as people that go against the societal grain (artists of all kinds as well as other types of free thinkers) and I think that my best advice for those that are single and child free would be to date someone in a creative field. Artists tend to have the highest percentage of child free marriages and lifestyles. I went to an art school and haven’t met one person who wanted a MRS. degree or wanted to make child bearing a life goal, unlike many of the people I know that went to liberal arts colleges. I’m not saying that everyone I went to school with was childfree, but quite a few of them were or were unconcerned with marriage and children in general.
Interesting blog. Child free people certainly are made to feel as if they are going against the grain. I have a hard time dealing with the fact that many women who wish to remain child free are made to feel abnormal by a large part of society.
I can recount a time in my mid thirties;; my doctor took it upon himself to give me the “biological clock is ticking talk”. Never having felt the urge to reproduce; I was quite taken aback by his tone and the unsolicited “now or never” lecture. People should be true to themselves and listen to their own head and hearts in these matters. Nobody can tell you what is right for you.