Look through the comments on this blog and each one is a thought provoking nugget of truth. When I say our childfree book is already written I’m quite serious. I think it every time I read through the comments and the discussions here.
I found this comment by Og17 particularly illuminating. Even if you’ve read it in the comments I thought it worth pulling out as a post even a short one. As commentator serrin says, sometimes the obvious is so obvious that it’s completely over looked.
Here’s the comment, in case you haven’t already read it:
“I think for people in the “now-or-never” crunch, or people with pressuring mates it’s important to understand that you are not choosing between life A – alone without your awesome partner, and life B – with your awesome partner and kids. Your awesome partner is for all intents and purposes, dead.
You are choosing between life A – a life without your awesome partner. Perhaps you are alone, perhaps you are with a different person. Choice B is a life with a PARENT and children. Review that in your head. The awesome partner will change. If it’s a woman, more so. Physically, emotionally, they will be a completely different person. Your relationship will drastically change, and for the worse – sexually, financially. This new person will be pretty stressed, they will give you a lot less attention, they will require you to do a lot more, as will they, and there will be a lot less money in the house. This will go on for abut 25 years, if you are fortunate, and forever if not.
The only thing that may make this worth your while is if you genuinely like, want and enjoy children. Not like one kid. Like, babies, and toddlers, and 8-year-olds, and 14-year-olds, and 18-year-olds. Because they will all inhabit your house and take over your life and your relationship. I think often people give in to the idea of a child hoping to keep their mate. But then after the child is born, they realize the person their mate has become is not one they want to be with. THAT mistake is referred to as “alimony and child support” in popular culture.”
When it comes to “now or never” people sometimes don’t really realize just how drastically their lives will change. Somehow they convince themselves that “everything will be fine, or, as we know that a baby will solve all the already existing problems in the relationship, one of which is dissatisfaction with the other’s choice or with their own lives.
I think this line says it all… “The awesome partner is, for all intents and purposes, dead.” I would add – so is the life you had. It’s a whole new ball-game in every sense of the word and very few people will ever tell you the truth about that, preferring to tell you only how wonderful it is once you start having children and how having them makes you a better person, how it is worth it (it being the giving up of everything you loved about your past life and love). Once you have kids, you are not expected to opt-out. And, since along the way you said yes to the “let’s have a child” pressure/question you shouldn’t be able to opt-out. If you do, again, as was said, child support and alimony await.
I really don’t think I needed to add anything to the comment but I did anyway. For anyone under any kind of pressure (from a partner) to pro-create, of if you are on the fence read and re-read this post (and the comment if you like) until you’ve memorized it. I am so thankful that we have people that really do tell it Like It Is.
Thank you og17 for this great comment… and thanks to all of you for sharing all your equally great comments on this blog.
Keep the comments coming… and I am really pleased to be able to profile a comment from the blog.
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You’re the one who came here to a childfree forum, Jenna, knowing the people here have made a decision not to have children. You actually don’t know what the people here contribute to the world, but you’ve unilaterally made the assumption that since we don’t have children, we can’t possibly have lives worth living.
Anyone with functioning reproductive organs can have children. That’s not an achievement. Bringing up children to be decent adults is an achievement. Doing well in a profession is an achievement. Caring for others is an achievement. Studying is an achievement. You don’t have to have children to make a sacrifice or to leave some worthwhile mark on the world. Parents do not have a monopoly on living well. They do not have a monopoly on virtue.
I think you will find that “wasting resources on fertility treatments” is not something the childfree really trouble themselves about. Nor “nasty” old eggs. If you want children, you’re not childfree. Do you go to infertility sites and lambaste the posters for having the temerity to postpone childbearing until they felt ready?
Do you really respect peoples’ choice to be childfree? From what I read, I doubt it.
PS. My punctuation is fine. Possessive plurals get an apostrophe after the word. But your spelling…as an English teacher I winced several times. Good luck with school.
(sorry folks, for triple post! computer misbehaving!) xxx
“Although you have all made up your minds about me, and what my life is like…”
As if you have not done the same for us child-free people.
soldatka, they are called typos. I do great in school, thank you.
Well where does all that bitterness come from? I thought truly happy people are too busy being happy to bother whining about other people’s choices
Jenna,
Parenthood is a noble pursuit if you adopt a child who already exists and is in need. If you birth and raise a child you essentially created a job for yourself and you filled that job. You have made no more of a contribution to the world than a hamster running on a wheel. If you enjoyed yourself in the process, good for you, but I sincerely doubt happiness is what lead you here to criticize the childfree.
Jenna, according to your post your sister was around 30 when she had her child. That’s not actually terribly old to have children. If the baby has health problems it is possibly due to reasons other than her age. If you really want to go by ‘nature’s plan’ then people would start having children at the age of 14.
Let me add my own data point to the survey: my aunt was nearly 40 when she had her child (completely natural pregnancy…no IVF or fertility treatments) and the little guy is perfectly healthy, happy and intelligent.
Jenna, regardeless of your protestations of only giving your so-called “2 cents” I believe you came with no such intent. You came to criticize and to stir it and to throw around your rather ignorant directives on how you think people should live their lives – having made up your mind about what childfree people are and even how we’ll be in a few years time. Amazing.
In fact you are fast appearing more and more like a troll… and if you take the time to read through this fairly substantial blog you’ll discover I have no time nor patience with trolls or troll-wannabes.
You insist that no other opinion is valid here, which is pure bunkum and proves to me you need to dial back the criticisms and read the blog. But you won’t, because that’s not part of your plan.
This blog isn’t for you, it’s for us and I for one am getting bored with your protestations. Read the sidebar for the rules on commenting – for that matter read the disclaimer, and if you don’t like them (and can’t be polite, just go find another site. There are plenty of welcoming sites available to you, where you can sound off to your heart’s delight. Clearly this isn’t one of them.
The only one with a “meaningless existence” et all here is you. And you’re on a short rope if you choose to keep posting in similar vein.
Consider this a friendly warning… which is less than you’ve displayed to anyone here. You won’t get another.
Jenna, two words:
“line breaks”
!
Jenna, you are right. I have no idea how to sacrAfice for someone. That’s because I’m not a retard and can spell, but hey – when you’re right, you’re right and I thought you’d be happy that I admit my inability to “sacrafice.”
I also greatly envy what seems like an awesome marriage. You are looking into vasectomy reversals for the loser who’s stuck married to you, eh? Just when he thought he could contain the hell of his life, having you and two brats, you, being so smart and all (she’s going to school, y’all! and they have “meaning conversation!’ Can you even IMAGINE what that might sound like????) are going to get him a vasectomy reversal, yippee! Just FYI brainiac – since it’s pretty clear that your husband is screwing other people in an effort to drown out your and your brats’ screeching, a vasectomy reversal may have all sorts of illegitimate consequences. But thats a higher purpose too, I am sure.
Oh well, I’m off to drink a mocha. I can, after all, afford it and $5 is not a “sacrafice” for me. Then I’ll cry into my $100 hankie because I have no higher purpose except fun, sex, friends, travel, and every single material thing I want. And no snot and excrement to wipe! Ok, too hysterical to write any more – convulsing with sobs….
I would guess that the child Jenna’s sister had has problems not due to her “nasty” old 28-year-old’s eggs but most likely due to the fact that Darwinism is at work (explanation available in dictionaries for those who “do great” at school) and certain carriers of genetic deformities (stupidity, etc.) are being slowly rooted out by nature.
Maybe I shouldn’t buy that mocha though. Mayeb I should start saving for fertility treatments for my own nasty 28-year-old eggs? Hmmmm…. I do so desperately want a “meaningful purpose” just like Jenna!
I’m sorry to feed the troll, but there’s one “point” that Jenna raised that I don’t think has been addressed.
Jenna, why do you have such contempt for people who adopt? You claim that all of us here hate children, thereby implying that you love them. If that’s so, why is “buying other people’s babies” so horrific? Obviously there are many, many children who have no real homes and no real parents. Why do you begrudge them that?
Even before I came to the full decision to be CF, I realized that I didn’t want to reproduce, and that doing so was extremely irresponsible given the current overpopulation problem. I realize that you discount this issue, but if you really do love children as much as you claim, why do you want people to bring more kids onto a planet that may not be able to support them? Yes, humanity is ingenious and we may find ways to provide food, clothing, housing and adequate medical care for everyone eventually, but we aren’t doing it NOW. How is adding to that problem responsible?
These are serious questions, and I’d really like to get a sincere well thought out response from you, although I doubt that I’ll get one. I haven’t ever from anyone with the attitude that you’ve shown here.
I’ll help you out there, FierceGeekChick. The reason Jenna and other rabid mommy losers are so anti-adoption is because adoption is based on the fact that some people (lots and lots) have a child and decide that they don’t want it. There are orphans too, and I think that doesn’t hurt Jenna’s head as much – that’s a terrible thing, bla bla bla. But the idea that people have a kid and then don’t want it would probably cause Jenna’s big, “great at school” brain to explode. It would debunk her whole theory about our “purpose” and the “misery” of being without a child. If people chuck their kids on the side of the road, and carry right on, then perhaps a) not everyone wants a kid b) not everyone feels a “love like no other” for their spawn and c) lots of people who had a child wish that they had not had that child at that time with that partner. Basically, the existence of adoption proves that Jenna is wrong. Lots of people want kids and lots of people don’t. In Jenna’s world (you know, the one full of fascinating conversation?) everyone wants kids. People who are ancient and nasty, like 28-year-olds, go insane desperately trying to conceive in the last possible second, beating themselves for stupidly waiting for the GREATEST. EXPERIENCE. EVER. If abortions and kids in orphanages number in the millions per year, everywhere and every year, it may point to the fact that nothing about Jenna is special, “natural” or divine. She’s just a sad person with little going on who’s desperately looking for meaning in a biological function. Yawn.
I thought it might be resentment that people who adopt get to call themselves ‘parents’ without having shat out a watermelon and spent countless sleepless nights with a bawling newborn. Because you know, you’re not a real parent unless you have suffered. Parenthood = martyrdom.
og217,
I’m sure you’re right. I really wish that just once one of these people would give me a coherent reason. I don’t understand people who refuse to apply logic and reason to major life decisions. I have this (probably insane) hope that one of them one day will give me some kind of logical explanation for their beliefs, even if I disagree with it. I get so frustrated by people who claim to LOOOOOVE kids, but balk at the idea of adoption. They really just prove your point. They reduce themselves to nothing more than rutting animals, and then call us selfish and base. Sad.
Og17, you have a new admirer
As for Jenna – yeah…biologically it’s my purpose to reproduce, or as it was in college, to practice with as many partners as possible. Ha.
My stupid joking aside, go away. I found purpose in my life. I live in paradise right now. I took to Buddhism 15 years ago and obtained a serenity in life most people can’t contemplate. I’m certainly not the stereotypical bald, saffron robe-wearing dude who sweeps beetles out of the way, but I’ve long seen the truth of existence and where my purpose lies, for which reproducing simply was *not* apart of that purpose.
If I were God, I’d be f-ing livid that all sorts of dumbass people run around babbling nonsense and blaming me for it! Isn’t that really what all our world problems come from, dumabasses slugging it out over what God said, without God actually ever saying it? Yeah, if I were God, I’d be royally peeved. I’d strike all those peopel down with some horrid Middle Age plague. Or like 8 kids, whichever.
Gee, I thought Elizabethm was boring, then Jenna showed up and gave me a boredom induced lobotomy. Fortunately, it was temporary. But seriously, how did you get through that nonsensical pile of completely predictable DULL?
Your purpose is to reproduce? Snore. Your lives are so meaningless? Bor-ing! You are so materialistic with your Coach purses and Starbucks? Uhh…I had to look up to find out what made a “Coach” purse so special (ooohhh….the price) and haven’t been in a SB’s for several years (since I learned they don’t actually brew their iced tea). You do great in school? Okay, good for you, have a cookie. 28 is “old”? Hey, enjoy that botox when you turn the ripe old age of 33. Only parents know sacrifice? Yeah, tell that to the vet who has lost his legs at the ripe old age of 23….in fact, tell me, and I’ll relay your message. I’ll be selfishly seeing him in a few days as part of some volunteer work I’m doing. Obviously, I’m not actually contributing anything useful to society as he was already born to another set of people.
Feh, loved your comment! I can’t tell you how many times I have watched members of the stroller set scurry past a homeless person in my neighborhood (with or without kids in tow) as if they were diseased and not just hungry. Meanwhile, last winter my child-free husband and I took blankets, socks and sweaters to the regulars who sleep in sub-zero temps in doorways on our block. A couple of weeks ago, my husband was chatting with a neighbor across the street about some parking nonsense on our block. During the conversation an obviously homeless man asked both my husband and neighbor for spare change. Neighbor who makes 7 figures annually turned his head away as if the homeless man was sub-human. Husband gave him a few bucks and loose change so he could get a sandwich. I’d like to add that 7 figure guy’s wife is currently pregnant with their first child. I wonder how old his child will be before he teaches him/her the “noble” lesson of ignoring the suffering of others less fortunate.
I have to say that all of that turbo-charged parental passion about caring, purpose, meaning and sacrifice seems to come to a screeching halt right at the end of the DNA strand for many.
I came across this link to the advice columnist on Salon that I thought might be interesting reading for some of the fence sitters here or those who live with them. It regards a woman whose husband decided he wanted kids after they married (to give his life meaning) and she still doesn’t want them. Interesting comments from readers and surprisingly not many harpies.
I was shocked at the number of people who commented how the woman may be too old to have kids at 38 anyway. Maybe it’s because I live in an urban area, but none of my friends who wanted them even started to think about it until they were in their mid to late 30’s.
http://letters.salon.com/mwt/col/tenn/2009/04/09/husband_wants_kids/view/index31.html?show=all
Had an interesting chat with my boyfriend (who wants children) last night. We were talking about his sister’s marriage and he said that she has “let” herself go. I said “well she has three kids, of course she has put on a bit of weight and lost some of her glamour over the years.” He said she should still be able to look after herself properly even though she has kids and is looking after four OTHER people (3 kids plus the husband).
It just made me think that his expectations are totally unrealistic. Does he really think that if I popped out three kids for him I’d still be off to the gym every morning, finding the time to put on make up and the money to buy nice clothes, in between caring for him, however many children and most likely also working full time?
Honestly, I barely have time to look after myself as it is!
I can’t help but feel that when we part ways and he moves on to a woman who will give him the kids he so desperately wants, he will end up disappointed.
I’m a 38-year old man and my wife is 41, nearly 42. I didn’t want kids for years and now, as my wife and I stare down the barrel of age-related infertility, I have had something of a conversion. Our chance at having our own child looks unlikely which has sent me in a bit of depressed tailspin, much to my surprise. Up until about a month ago, I was pretty convinced I would never want children and didn’t particularly care for the company of kids or people who had kids. I guess having the door closed without really realizing it prompted the change.
I totally understand why people don’t want or don’t have kids because, believe me, I was as anti-having-my-own-kid as they come. When I thought about what I’d have to give up to have a kid, it drove out any feelings of procreating. I feel differently about things now and see being a parent as a tremendous challenge and life-broadening and enriching experience. The sacrifices I would have to make are ones I would willingly make now. All too many people, however, reproduce without thinking it through or before they are ready, which may explain the misery many people seem to experience when they begin having kids. I have hit most of my personal goals in life and feel reasonably satisfied with my career. I have enjoyed my personal pursuits and liked my freedom. Economic concerns, the increase in crime, (particularly violent crimes against children) and world-wide political instability were all enough in the past for me to be thankful I didn’t have kids. Up until very recently, I was still worried we might actually have a kid and then the party would be over.
Now, reading the medical literature and realizing a kid of our own is unlikely, I feel a kind of emptiness inside. We may yet have a child and if we do, I doubt I’ll really understand the enormity of it until I’m deep in the weeds, as it were. I hope I don’t ever take things for granted, but it’s human nature to do so in regards to just about every facet of life. If my wife and I don’t have children, we have the rest of our lives still ahead of us and it can still be a rich, rewarding experience. I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything with this missive – people need to do what is right for them and other people should butt out. I just wanted to share my opinion and that’s what I did. Thanks for the opportunity.
Hi Repentent:
I am happily childfree, but I just wanted to say that you should not be preemptively sad about not having a child. There are many, many women who get pregnant and do quite well with pregnancy over 40. My mother had me when she was 41 and my brother when she was 43. That was well before the miracles of modern science paved the way for facilitating trouble-free pregnancy in older women. Prenatal care in the 1960’s was nowhere near as sophisticated as it is today and my lill’ bro and I were both big, loud, boisterous babies. I also personally know two women who gave birth at 48 and 50. I think they are nuttier than fruitcakes for doing so
, but I just wanted to point out that for those who are inclined toward adding to their family in their 40’s, it is very much within the realm of possibility. I live in NYC and most likely because many here are focused on establishing their careers when they are young, many woman have children in their late 30’s, early 40’s or older.
As far as your depression goes, I think it is normal at any transition stage in life to feel a tug of sadness when considering the path(s) you have chosen for yourself as time rolls on and you look at your life from 10,000 feet. For everything we rule in, we rule something else out and we only know after the fact if we were 100% spot on in how we prioritized. I will say, speaking from my own life experience, sometimes when an option is taken off the table it suddenly becomes more attractive if for no other reason than it is no longer a possibility. Since your conversion is rather recent and seems to be triggered by your wife’s age, you may just be feeling the discomfort of dwindling options.
Best of luck, whatever you decide.
Hi Lee,
Thank you for the very insightful observations. I do think my conversion has been rather drastic and I’m a bit suspicious of how genuine it is, since my transformation was largely based on emotions. It could very well be that I am lamenting the loss of an option, just as you said. I also think I have suddenly romanticisized parenthood to a large extent; again, mainly because I think it’s unlikely we can now have a child of our own. I have not ruled out adoption, which I honestly think is a more noble form of parenting for people like me and my wife. We aren’t really ready to consider that just yet, though.
While I still want to be a father someday, I haven’t completely abandoned my initial and long-standing aversion to some of the more odious aspects of child-rearing. I can accept the financial sink-hole, the perpetual mess, the loss of personal freedom and the invariable stress that will come with raising an immature human. The lack of responsible parenting I see writ large in modern society (America, in my case) may be the one thing that makes me glad I don’t have a kid and quietly, reluctantly hope in small ways I don’t get my wish for fatherhood. Good parents are out there, but they are seemingly grossly outnumbered by the hordes that make a brood and expect everyone else to either tolerate or coddle their offspring. I see so many children who are never disciplined or learn to respect others. Education is often not stressed in these same households and they often have no decent adult role models, particularly fathers. These same families drain the resources of the tax paying public and give little in return. I witness this debacle and I truly wonder how current civilization can be sustained. I am glad I am not a child faced with the problems that I think are coming – yet, I also want a child. These two opposing perspectives still battle inside me. Normally, the more pragmatic, logical side wins easily. Now, as the option to have a child seems less likely, I wonder if my initial reservations were as justified as I once believed them to be.
As much as things seem to sliding towards societal entropy, it makes me consider how things might be improved and I look to children and parents. We are going to need the children of good, smart, hard-working and principled people more than ever in the coming decades. I have no way of ensuring the outcome, but if I could raise a child that becomes a good adult, I wouldn’t hesitate to take the risks and make the sacrifices to make it happen.
Hi there,
I’m glad that my comments were helpful in some way. If you were to decide to parent, based on your intelligent and thoughtful post, I am sure that you will do an excellent job, despite the state of the world. If you decide not to, for the same reasons, I am sure that you will create meaning in your life, and contribute to society in other ways.
Despite your posting name, I hope that you are not beating yourself up for decisions that brought you to this point. Because as you said, should you not be able to have a biological child for some reason, providing an abandoned or orphaned baby with a loving home is a wonderful option. Two of the most well balanced, thoughtful, caring, all-around excellent people that I know were adopted, and whenever I’m with them I can’t help but think how well they must have been loved by their adoptive parents. And, because they are my friends I also think how grateful I am that they were chosen.
It’s easy to be swayed one way or another when you are feeling vulnerable, but if you are clear that you are following what is in your heart of hearts and you and your wife are on the same page, you’ll be able to move forward from a position of strength and optimism.
All the best to you. Lee
As an update to my particular situation (not that’s it that important), we have learned from some clinical visits that my wife’s ovarian reserve is quite low and her remaining egg quality is suspect. We are still in a discovery phase with more tests awaiting us, but it looks likely my wife won’t be able to have a child naturally. The assisted reproduction techniques available to us are insanely expensive (too rich for our blood) and, frankly, worrisome for a variety of reasons. While we both want a child, there is a line neither of us want to cross. We have pretty much come to a consensus we can continue to try for a child of our own and if it happens, then we’ll be amazed and thrilled that we somehow beat the odds. If it doesn’t happen, then that’s that. Adoption is something I’m not only willing to do, but actually quite interested in, but my wife is from another country and the thought of adoption for anyone other than family members (orphaned nieces and nephews) is a hard concept for her to really embrace. Her view is that it just wouldn’t be family. I disagree with this position but I would never force the issue out of respect for her. So we will likely be childless or child-free, depending on how one looks at it, one way or another. While we are both disappointed and saddened about this, we also realize that life will likely be easier for us if we don’t have children. I didn’t want kids for most of my life primarily because I didn’t want the burden, so adjusting back to that perspective is a bit easier for me. My wife, who always wanted to be a mother, has handled this very well. She is able to accept the news with a positive mindset that amazes me. We are both grateful we have our health and that we have our own family in each other. That will do, no matter what happens.
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