Look through the comments on this blog and each one is a thought provoking nugget of truth. When I say our childfree book is already written I’m quite serious. I think it every time I read through the comments and the discussions here.
I found this comment by Og17 particularly illuminating. Even if you’ve read it in the comments I thought it worth pulling out as a post even a short one. As commentator serrin says, sometimes the obvious is so obvious that it’s completely over looked.
Here’s the comment, in case you haven’t already read it:
“I think for people in the “now-or-never” crunch, or people with pressuring mates it’s important to understand that you are not choosing between life A – alone without your awesome partner, and life B – with your awesome partner and kids. Your awesome partner is for all intents and purposes, dead.
You are choosing between life A – a life without your awesome partner. Perhaps you are alone, perhaps you are with a different person. Choice B is a life with a PARENT and children. Review that in your head. The awesome partner will change. If it’s a woman, more so. Physically, emotionally, they will be a completely different person. Your relationship will drastically change, and for the worse – sexually, financially. This new person will be pretty stressed, they will give you a lot less attention, they will require you to do a lot more, as will they, and there will be a lot less money in the house. This will go on for abut 25 years, if you are fortunate, and forever if not.
The only thing that may make this worth your while is if you genuinely like, want and enjoy children. Not like one kid. Like, babies, and toddlers, and 8-year-olds, and 14-year-olds, and 18-year-olds. Because they will all inhabit your house and take over your life and your relationship. I think often people give in to the idea of a child hoping to keep their mate. But then after the child is born, they realize the person their mate has become is not one they want to be with. THAT mistake is referred to as “alimony and child support” in popular culture.”
When it comes to “now or never” people sometimes don’t really realize just how drastically their lives will change. Somehow they convince themselves that “everything will be fine, or, as we know that a baby will solve all the already existing problems in the relationship, one of which is dissatisfaction with the other’s choice or with their own lives.
I think this line says it all… “The awesome partner is, for all intents and purposes, dead.” I would add – so is the life you had. It’s a whole new ball-game in every sense of the word and very few people will ever tell you the truth about that, preferring to tell you only how wonderful it is once you start having children and how having them makes you a better person, how it is worth it (it being the giving up of everything you loved about your past life and love). Once you have kids, you are not expected to opt-out. And, since along the way you said yes to the “let’s have a child” pressure/question you shouldn’t be able to opt-out. If you do, again, as was said, child support and alimony await.
I really don’t think I needed to add anything to the comment but I did anyway. For anyone under any kind of pressure (from a partner) to pro-create, of if you are on the fence read and re-read this post (and the comment if you like) until you’ve memorized it. I am so thankful that we have people that really do tell it Like It Is.
Thank you og17 for this great comment… and thanks to all of you for sharing all your equally great comments on this blog.
Keep the comments coming… and I am really pleased to be able to profile a comment from the blog.
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{ 79 comments… read them below or add one }
I’ve already commented on og’s excellent post in the previous article so I thought I’d just share this article from The Washington Post–entitled “Bundle of Misery” which relates to og’s post and Britgirl’s article. It appears that mom’s and dad’s are equally unhappy so to og’s point–you are no longer sharing your life with the same fabulous human if parenting is impacting your partner’s life in a negative way. If it’s affecting both parents in a negative way…. Well, good luck with that people!
Anyway, interesting study done (though a couple years old) and some very affirming conclusions for the child free. The last two lines hit the nail on the head.
Enjoy!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/02/AR2006010201513_pf.html
Wow, thanks guys! I’m totally honored. I don’t really have anyone to talk to about this, so it’s a nice place to come and be understood and appreciated. Thank you!
I do wish more people realized how difficult and unrewarding children are and selfishly wish some of my friends would be childfree. I have had 2 (not a couple) recently confess that they hate being parents and wish they could go back in time and undo the whole mess. Each mentioned the lack of sex and more disturbingly, lack of interest in sex and in intimacy. My male friend, who’s got a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old, has taken up a new martial art class 3 days a week (in addition to a 70-hour work week) so as to be out of the house as much as possible because he can’t stand the noise and the demands. He ships the fam out to the country for the entire summer every year while he stays home and on his off time, plays X-box. We’d been friends for many years, and roommates for years too, so I knew him to like quiet, order, and excersize. He is not a patient man or a man that can deal very well with a nagging partner – he just stalks off. How on earth he thought this was a good idea is beyond me. He lives a separate life from his wife and children and I can’t imagine that he’s happy. He was financially set to retire (very early – at 40). Now with the economic crash and the kids, thats gone. All for what? He can hardly bear an hour with the children.
I consider myself 70% childfree and 30% on the fence. Why? Only because personally I just don’t know if in a few years I’ll feel differently. I decided for myself that at 34 I will make a final decision and if it’s no my husband will get snipped. Right now I have the Mirena so I know I can make the decision for myself. I feel I am meant to be childfree, I don’t think I have the mother thing in me. Also, one of the main reasons I didn’t want to have children is that I feel it can destroy a wonderful relationship as I believe it did with my parents, luckily my husband and I are on the same page for the most part.
This post hits home with me, for sure…I have felt a lot of pressure from my wife and her family to have children “before it’s too late”. (My wife is 40 and I am 38.) Nowadays, my wife has shown signs of acceptance of the CF lifestyle, saying she doesn’t need more stress in her life, not wanting to be around crying kids, etc.
We have 5 nieces/neohews, all one her side (I am an only child). There is one particularly obnoxious nephew who just turned four, and he is the one who most makes me glad to be childfree (and is starting to turn my wife that way, too). I see how his parents seem to fight constantly, and how my SIL has turned from an interesting and fun person to be around, into a harried, crabby, stressed-out mother. Also, a little while back, we were at a family function, and I had my arm around my wife. Her other sister (with 3 kids) came over and asked if we were “okay”. When I replied yes, with a puzzled look, she said “Oh, so you guys still hug and kiss just for the heck of it? My husband and I are beyond that by now.” How sad.
I can’t see giving up an intimate relationship I already have with my spouse, to gamble on a relationship with a not-yet-existing person whom I might not even like that much, and in fact may make my life thoroughly miserable. Not worth it at all, IMO.
Great post. I’m just now starting to become truly vocal about my childfree choice on my own blog, and I can’t stress enough how validating and uplifting it’s been, up until this point, to hear others’ similar perspectives – here especially.
I truly believe that life as a parent is completely different than life as just a married person. Everything changes – anyone who’s witnessed friends have kids knows that.
Like the article Lee mentions, it’s just the world we live in. If I had 6 siblings all in the neighborhood and my parents near by, cousins, in laws, etc. and had always grown up among kids, it would probably be natural and easy to add another one to the pile. But as it stands, everyone is all over the world. The neighbors are nice, but certainly not like the neighbors were “back in the day,” and any outing requires a trip in the car and lots of money. Just the idea of logistics gives me a headache, even the “Kodak moment” logistics like taking a kid to a zoo. First you have to spend an hour cramming the car with strollers, toys, food, sun block and who knows what else, then you get to sit in traffic for an hour listening to an endless loop of “music” by Alvin and the Chipmunks, punctuated by crying, they you disembark the vehicle for an hour, pay some atrocious fee and join swarms of overheated people with their own screaming kids to go poke through the fense at some terrified moose. Then you do the whole thing in reverse except now your kid is tired and covered in ice cream. Upon return, you find the house in shambles from your harried departure, and now everyone is hungry and cranky. You’d get take away but you can’t afford it. You’d cook, but you are beat, plus you have no food because instead of doing the weekend shop, you were at the zoo. THIS is fun? I’d lose my mind screaming, crying and eating valiums.
I thought this was a fantastic comment. Thank you, og217, and thank you, Britgirl! I’ve been the one who’s walked away from could-have-been-so-wonderful partners because of the kid thing. It’s great to see what I instinctively understood so well expressed in text – either way you lose, you are alone or with a partner who may well become a stranger to you. I don’t like kids enough for any of that to be worth it.
If I’m to be lonely and miserable, better to be lonely and miserable on my own than lonely and miserable in a malfunctioning relationship surrounded by yelling dependents. (And actually, I wasn’t lonely and miserable for long; an advantage of being CF is that you can actually leave the house when you want to, and stay out as long as you want!) When I see what kids have done to most of my friends’ relationships and freedom, I know I’ve done the right thing.
I had a weird moment when one of my acquaintances announced that she was pregnant AFTER she had a tubal – according to the story she had been pregnant for a couple of weeks before the operation. Why they didn’t do a pregnancy test I don’t know. I don’t remember one being done for me when I had my tubal, but this is BC, so maybe they don’t bother? I don’t know.
I was pretty shocked because only a couple weeks before her announcement, she was telling me that she would be a horrible mother and never wanted kids. I am not close enough to her to ask what changed her mind, but I suspect it was a “last chance/meant to be” decision. She seems happy about it, but I am naturally suspicious of such a 180 degree turn, especially after her declarations.
A tubal is a pretty drastic step for someone and shows a definite decision about not wanting children. I wonder if this “last minute” choice to go through with the pregnancy is going to result in resentment and unhappiness later. I truly hope it doesn’t, but…
I told my gf on the second date that I was CF.
My gf is a great person but wants a baby. I dont!
What seem to be disagreements about everything else is really disagreement about children or not.
The comments of the last two posts fit perfect. Extra salute to og217.
Thanks to Britgirl for catching up on this topic.
This is tricky. I found having children very hard and much in the comments here has an echo for me. But I can’t leave these comments standing as an unchallenged validation of the decision to be childfree. If that is your choice, I would defend to the death your right to make it and would not try to change your mind. My dearest friend is childfree and happy and has made utterly the right decision for her. But if you are on the fence, rather than have made your choice, someone needs to say that children can be the best thing – hard work, phenomenally hard work when they are little, but transformationally, life-changingly good. Having children probably cost me my first marriage so I am not offering anything cosy here, but, married again now, I would not have any of it any other way. Incomprehensible I suppose. I’ll go away now.
Elisabeth: I can only speak on behalf of myself.
I am sure your intention was good. But your comment sounds just like any other bingo.
I am off the fence so therefore I really dont care:) Have a nice weekend!
Elizabeth: I’m curious as to why can’t you leave these comments standing? I find it quite easy to leave the comments standing on parenting boards all the time. Doesn’t interest me–happy they’re happy, not for me. Have had plenty of life changing, transformational experiences without giving birth. Oddly enough, I don’t need to talk about them on message boards.
If you read carefully you’ll notice that both sides of the coins have been discussed here by britgirl and in other articles posted. The problem I have with your post is you act as if you came here to somehow win people over who may be on the fence. Why? As you can tell from the posts here, this is very intelligent, insightful group of people. Nobody is being knee-jerk about anything. BUT, we also don’t go to parenting sites and try to convince people to not have kids because we are happy with our choice. Your children cost you your marriage–that was a choice you were willing to make–not everyone is. I married my husband to be with HIM because I valued my relationship with HIM.
What are you saying? That if your marriage falls apart because of your kids, don’t worry, you’ll find someone better? Statistics please. For those of us happy with our mates they are our first priorities and as such are not replaceable.
You are happy now but you don’t say how old your kids are or if you have kids with your new mate.
I REALLY don’t understand why people with kids even come here? Do you really think you are providing some service to humanity because all of us live under a rock and would otherwise not be exposed to people with children? Geez! Still waiting for those pearls of wisdom….
ps: do people with kids who end up on this site Google child free? That’s curious, isn’t it? Perhaps they are trying to convert people because they’re afraid more people are choosing to remain child free and it troubles them for some reason….hmmm. Maybe they’re worried the human race is on the verge of extinction?
Personally, I’d rather have root canal with a screwdriver than spend a nanosecond on a parenting site, but hey, that’s just me.
I can’t leave these comments standing as an unchallenged validation of the decision to be childfree…. But if you are on the fence, rather than have made your choice, someone needs to say that children can be the best thing – hard work, phenomenally hard work when they are little, but transformationally, life-changingly good…. I’ll go away now.
ElizabethM… I doubt very much that you’ve gone or, as Lurker generously assumes, that your intentions were good. Making a pro-parent post on a childfree blog is virtually a guarantee that you’re going to be back, probably with all the friends you have informed of your courageous and noble strike on behalf of parents and children everywhere.
It must feel good to stand up for something that so many people are overwhelmingly in favour of. To do so means that you have people at your back, saying, “Hell, yeah!” Or at least they would be if they were in the habit of perusing boards completely unconnected with their lifestyle.
You remark that you suppose we would find your happiness in your children “incomprehensible”. I submit that it is actually the opposite. We comprehend perfectly that many people take joy in having and raising children. However we also comprehend that many people are not suited to this task and by choosing it without thinking carefully about the changes in their lives that will result, they are setting up both themselves and their child(ren) for less happy lives. What I find incomprehensible is that you cannot accept this.
I look at the “la-la-la-go-have-babies” commentator as a fantastic validation of childfree living. A lot of us here are happily married. Can you imagine losing your spouse or partner? Can you imagine doing something, on purpose, to throw away your marriage? I would die. I think I really truly would die. And then, if I did somehow manage to slither around half-dead, I would have some brat demanding breakfast, a ride, and an iphone 24/7? And I would be so hideously stretched out and floppy, as well as dead broke (but with iphone – yay) as to never attract any other man, except perhaps some damaged loser like myself? Re-read her comments. Raising children was “phenomenally hard work” and cost, in addition to time, money, soul-destruction, A LOSS OF HER SPOUSE! Yet this woman is “la-di-da, go have babies!” Clearly she is deranged. She was obviously married to someone she never cared for to let a marriage go with such a breezy attitude. Who does that, except idiots and deranged people? If anything, this goes to point out that having children will ruin your marriage and if you are fortunate enough to find some damaged goods afterwords to marry you again, those children will likely ruin or damage that relationship as well. (At that point you produce another one, presumably, then leave, and then continue in that pattern?) My marriage is the number one reason I do not want to have children. I suppose if I didn’t find my soulmate and instead scrambled around for a human with a penis, like musical chairs, I would be amenable to having a child. If I didn’t really have much to talk about with my partner and life with him was already a chore, I may have wanted a distraction, or “someone who will love me unconditionally” in th eform of a baby. But what I have with my husband is so amazing, so rare and so holy (cheesy lol?) to destroy it would be an absolute crime. So this lady completely confirms my suspicion – children destroy marriages and happiness and if that’s “worth it,” I don’t want to know.
I realize that Elizabeth is probably just trolling for comments, but I’ll say this for the benefit of any actual fence-sitters who may be here:
To me, as a former fence-sitter, the logical choice (in being childfree, or in any other big decision one has to make) if you’re unsure, is to choose the option that has the least painful outcome if it’s wrong. If I choose to be childfree and it turns out I wish I had kids, I may experience moments of regret here and there. BUT…if I have kids and then decide I don’t want them, I’ve made a mistake that will cost me for the rest of my life, and will hurt another person as well (an unwanted child isn’t likely to be a well-raised or happy one). I can’t just put the kids to the back of my mind and move on, like I could if I regretted childfreedom.
The default, IMO, should be *not* doing something unless you have a good reason *to* do it.
Its excellent to fail as long you do what everybody else is doing. Thats why parents do not think twice about reproduction. Seems to not matter wether it goes to hell or not since so many before you alread failed. A CF walks an unknown path and have no support if failure…other than “I told you so”!
“…children can be the best thing – hard work, phenomenally hard work when they are little, but transformationally, life-changingly good.”
This made me laugh. Look at the perspective here: “transformationally, life-changingly good” for ELIZABETHM.
Children are good because of what they did for HER, not in and of themselves.
It’s such a shining example of … oh, what’s that word leveled at so many CF people … ?
Oh yes, I have it:
SELFISHNESS.
I hate to continue the threadjacking, but so many things annoy me about ElizabethM’s post. The sheer arrogance of crashing into a place that people come to for support and validation that they may not be able to get from their RL peers is breathtakingly offensive, and I’m sure that she knows it. If she’d had something new to contribute that society at large doesn’t throw at us day after day, I don’t think I’d have been bothered, but she didn’t. It’s just a paragraph chock full of bingos.
The childed frequently accuse us of not knowing what love REALLY is because we don’t have kids. I can only conclude that anyone who’d sacrifice the person that they CLAIMED to love just so they could fulfill a selfish desire for children doesn’t know what love REALLY is. I see it all the time, and it makes me so sad for people’s partners. I know several women (not friends, just acquaintances) who speak about the fathers of their children as if they’re nothing more than inconvenient necessities for making babies, and they’re MARRIED to them. It’s sick and sad.
I’m also baffled about the type of advice she gives to fence sitters. Kids are great? That’s all you’ve got? Really? It’s just more of the “just do it, you’ll love it” BS that we hear on a daily basis. I won’t buy a car without being certain it’s the best choice. Why on earth should someone make a more far reaching decision that will have an impact upon even more people if they aren’t certain? The stupidity of that attitude is painful.
But I can’t leave these comments standing as an unchallenged validation of the decision to be childfree.
Why not?
I’m with ChrisOH in my decision making. I am not fence-sitting any longer because as I thought about what I wanted and who might get hurt by my choices I came to my decision. I’d rather be wrong and live with it, or pursue adoption late in life, or make the best of it travelling or spending time with my husband etc. than to have a child and realize I was right! To have a child grow up knowing, even subconciously, that it wasn’t wanted would be one of the saddest things I could think of. My reason for those who ask why it is I don’t want kids I answer with a completely serious expression: I believe all children should be wanted (pause) and I don’t want one. I get very few follow up questions. Who could argue with that without looking like they’re trying to make a monster (me, who ::gasp:: doesn’t want a child) agree to raise a kid! I usually get a response like “well, that’s a very good reason isn’t it”.
Actually, given the tone of elizabeth’s post, I don’t find anything offensive about it.
She probably stumbled across this site in some way, saw something that made her think “oh I have a comment to make” and made it, not intending to be offensive or arrogant. I personally think that there is a lot to be gained from childed and childfree people entering into discussions about their choices. I don’t like the way it currently feels a bit like a warzone with two opposing camps, armed to the teeth with spiteful and disrepectful comments. She wasn’t at all angry or attacking in her post
Frankly I get embarrassed sometimes by the way childfree people react so strongly to EVERY comment, even well meaning ones. Yes, there is some ignorance there, but surely the best way to reduce the level of ignorance is to welcome other people’s opinions and to help them to understand – and hopefully welcome – our own.
I realise that a lot of us have become very frustrated with the way our choice is looked upon by society, but surely going around calling people insulting names (like moo and breeder) and looking down on them, or judging THEM is not a skillful way to respond to this frustration. Patitent explanation and respectful discussion have a lot more to offer.
As some people have said, it doesn’t really matter if Elizabeth WAS being arrogant or judgmental, so why react as if it does matter?
You know, given that I frequently see comments like “I don’t like kids” perhaps we should be behaving like adults :p
Serrin: Not making comments (as you please) on CF issues in a Childfree blog?
Earlier I had same feeling as you about militant CF comments. But the more certain I am about my own CF choice the more I read between the lines of those “fundamentalist” comments. If you understand where those comments are comming from….and so on..
Lurker; I see your point about the place she chose to make those comments. I can’t help but suspect that she might be here because she feels some doubt about her life choice and perhaps is looking into what paths she could have chosen differently. In which case, she deserves our compassion and not our vitriol.
So let’s look into our responses to people, both here and in the real world. What is our aim in coming here; what do we hope to achieve collectively through this blog? For me, it’s to come to a place where I can discuss deeper issues of being childfree in a way that I can’t discuss it with family and friends, because with them it rarely goes beyond “you’ll change your mind”. It’s also to find ways to educate these people about my choice so that I CAN have an easier relationship with them, without feeling constantly judged. My ULTIMATE aim is to achieve a world in which both childbearing choices are seen as valid.
So, if someone like Elizabeth comes here, then yes I feel a little violated. I feel safe and accepted here, I don’t want to have to fight someone off. So i have three choices: 1) Respond agressively, warlike, negatively and return her (perceived) abuse. 2) Respond with respect, in a mature and logical way. 3) Ignore her, because I don’t see the relevance of her comments in a place such as this.
Let’s look at what each option achieves. 1) Childed person feels smug and validated because I am defensive and obviously regretting my choice/a lesser human being/not as good/clever whatever as they are. They go off and tell their friends that childfree people are militant, reactive and defensive.
2) Childed person may or may not understand where I am coming from. They may respond in which case we revert to the same list of choices. They MIGHT consider my words and realise that there is validity in my life choice also. They go off and tell their friends that childfree people are intelligent, articulate and mature, (and of course still wrong, let’s not expect miracles – haha) but that we have made our choice and should be respected for it, and there are too many people in the world anyway.
3) Childed person feels a little embarrassed because clearly they are in a place they don’t belong. Their original views remain the same but they probably end up just going away.
If I respond in an agressive manner to someone, it’s because they’ve annoyed me by violating what I feel is my right to discuss these topics free of judgement. But what do I get out of it? A feeling of superiority that only lasts as long as it takes to bash out the post on my keyboard, high blood pressure because I’ve allowed myself to be angered by someone who’s opinion shouldn’t mean that much to me anyway, and the brief satisfaction akin to punching someone on the nose. What do I lose? My self respect, the respect of the person I am responding to, and the cosy, welcoming atmosphere that this (albeit virtual) place represents to me.
It gets harder to remind oneself of this as the years go by and frustration mounts, but I think it would be useful if the world in general thought harder about how they are communicating and what they are communicating, as you say, between the lines. Just because someone else doesn’t, doesn’t mean we can’t. After all, WE are the ones who don’t have to deal with screaming kids all day, and WE are the ones with the time and resources to improve ourselves and our communication skills.
Let’s show the world how well considered our words and actions really are!
Top comment. I’m CF and proud, but some of these comments come across as almost militant!
ps sorry to hijack the thread = one thing I DIDN’T consider until now!
@serrin – thanks for this. I’m going to leave others to comment on your comment
however I haven’t seen the overall aggressiveness you mention myself. I see people sharing what they think… and being very upfront and down to earth about it. Eliazabethm is also welcome to say what she thinks too.
But even if anyone was aggressive, I think it’s their right and everything comes down to interpretation. If people are annoyed or angry about something someone’s written then why shouldn’t they say so? This is probably one of the few places they can do so.
I’m less inclined to believe that elizabethm came here feeling doubt about her life choices, if she did she had a rather odd way of showing it. She is not the first parent to post on this blog and she won’t be the last. I doubt any of them have run away screaming. Most take into consideration where they are posting who they are talking to and even take a minute to read the context of the blog (where I can’t find any vitriolic postings to parents) before they comment.
My personal feeling is that she wanted to make the point that those on the fence should consider having children because kids are great and wasn’t terribly bothered about what anyone thought. And so the fence sitters were on the receiving end of the usual bingos… hey, kids are great too.
Yes. But they can also be not great. They can ruin life relationships and for people who think it’s a price not worth paying it’s just one more reason not to have them.
And as for “But I can’t leave these comments standing as an unchallenged validation of the decision to be childfree.” Why not? And the fact that she lost a marriage because she had a child wasn’t lost on anyone.
In terms of respectful discussion and the like… on this blog I think we have a great balance. While I don’t advocate name calling and personal insults, I am not into censoring what we say to the point that it feels nice and palatable to everyone, we have to put up with a lot of that offline in our everyday situations.
People are welcome to say what they think sometimes it’s a quick reaction, sometimes it’s more measured. It all depends on who’s posting and what mood they happen to be in. I think what we are here for is to support, validate our choice and share with each other, including sharing what we think… it’s nice if non-childfree visitors have a learning experience from what’s said but that’s very much a by-product and it should take everything on the blog into context and not just one or two comments on a particular post.
At the end of the day you can’t please everyone so I don’t even try – and that’s why I clearly say on the front page this is a childfree blog. It is what it is. I always read the tone of several posts before I comment on a blog… and I would never ever go on a childed blog and post the way some childed people feel they can post on a childfree blog. If I did I should be prepared for some disagreement. Whether they admit it or not or say they support our choice or not the ultimate aim of most (not all, but most) people with children seems to be convert childfree fence-sitters to their side of the fence.
That’s not a lot of help for the fence-sitters who’ve heard all the arguments for and still don’t want kids but are faced with losing an important relationship if they don’t “give in” and have them.
serrin, if we were on a forum that wasn’t childfree, I would wholeheartedly support the moderate approach. However, we’re not and elizabethm was well aware of that when she posted. There are so many resources for fencesitters who are thinking that they might want to have kids and so few for those leaning towards not having any. The only reason to post here was to stir the pot – which she certainly did – and a less definable reason of setting our reasons for not having children up as the straw man that she felt she could knock down.
It is not her job to preach the joys of children on a blog that is so clearly labelled as one supporting the right and the inclination not to have offspring. It is not our responsibility to respond to the supercilious tone of someone who “just can’t leave our comments standing unchallenged” in a certain way merely to avoid the namecallers.
When someone comes on to a board for a particular position or lifestyle and starts trumpeting the joys of the antithesis, I do not believe they are seeking help. They may very well need it, but it is not incumbent upon us to provide it, especially when they are attacking the validity of our lifestyle and reasons for having it.
Posted another comment.
But Britgirl said it all.
All fair comments. I suppose I was referring to the childfree community in a wider sense rather than this blog or this post. One of the reasons I come to this blog is that, unlike many others, it isn’t full of anger and resentment. I’ve seen other sites where there’s a lot of anger and hatred. We’re definitely onto a good thing here!
serrin, you raise some good points. One of the main reasons I come here is that there is generally a lot of interesting, well thought out discussion. I think that’s actually why elizabethm’s comment annoyed me so much. It was just more of the nonsense people spout all the time. If she’d said something interesting I’d have had a much different reaction, even if I disagreed.
As for the community at large, I go back and forth. I DO understand what you’re saying. A lot of CF sites do seem like they’re composed of people posting variations on “those breeders are so dumb!” While there’s a certain satisfaction to be derived from that, no, they don’t project a particularly good image of the community. On the other hand, those sites aren’t for the childed, they’re for us. But on the other hand…yeah, I really do vacillate on this issue.
Serrin: I agree with you that a measured approach is generally the best when it comes to explaining one’s position on just about any topic. People may have a tendency to dismiss you if are hi-jacked by emotion when communicating. Though, I’ll add that I have never felt the need to explain my choice to anyone who would be rude enough to ask.
I am so grateful for having found britgirl’s blog because the comments are always so intelligent, thoughtful and respectful and often very humorous. Perhaps I’m biased, but I have yet to read a blog on any topic that has such a consistently articulate group commenting. I agree that some child free sites are over the top with the anger. For me personally, that mode doesn’t appeal. I don’t hate kids. I just don’t think they are a requirement to a happy, fulfilled life. I truly believe that if you are meant to be a parent the desire for children will be all consuming for you and just thinking of the little buggers will catapult you into a state of bliss. I’ve known women who absolutely swoon over the scent of a baby, I’ve never been one of them. Puppies and kittens however, that’s another story.
I admit that I was not in a particularly great frame of mind when I responded to elisabeth’s comments–a bit tired and on the crabby side. When I read her post, I thought, eh, let it stand, but then I read this line that she posted on britgirl’s previous article and I thought she wasn’t being quite as fair and balanced as she wanted us to believe.
–elisabeth
“I wonder here if there isn’t something going on where people are looking to validate their choice, rather than just making it?”
To me this comment reads that Elisabeth would prefer we remain silent about our lives–just make your choice but don’t talk about how happy it makes you because I, for one, don’t want to read about it. The solution to that problem is simple, I think. Not to mention that same comment can be applied to parenting sites (I would imagine) in a million different instances.
Also, the “I can’t let these comments stand line” followed up by the “I respect your choice” was contradictory to say the least.
Yes, people come here to learn and explore and see how other people feel about their choices. That is obvious. Every day, the child free are inundated by messages from media, religious groups, family and sometimes friends about how “right” it is to choose to be a parent, and not always in a polite or respectful manner. I dare say that if our culture was not so obsessed with kids the entire topic of child free would be a non-issue.
For me this blog is a safe, welcoming place. After reading the comments here I feel like I’m starting to know a little about the regular posters and even though this is not my blog and I’m only a guest, I feel a bit protective (ooh, maybe it’s latent maternal instinct–har de har har). There are PLENTY of resources for those who are interested in learning about parenting, babies and all the primary colored trappings that go along. I’m sure elisabeth knows that. The fence sitters amongst us come here to understand what the child free choice has been like for men and women of different ages and from different cultures. I am not a fence sitter by any stretch, but if I was it would only be upsetting and confusing to me to have someone pipe up in the midst of my decision making process while reading the measured and honest perspectives of child free by choice individuals to tell me YET AGAIN, “But wait–children are really wonderful”. It is clear from some of the posts here that a few readers are in relationships with people who would prefer to have children. That is a difficult and emotional time for anyone.
Perhaps this is an extreme example, but I liken the elisabeth types to pro-life people hanging around a clinic that provides terminations–falsely assuming that the women inside are callous, heartless individuals who’ve given absolutely no thought to their decision and only need some stranger chirping at them about the wonders of motherhood to win them over. It is a bit insulting to the intelligence. The chirpers are everywhere–environments like the one britgirl created are few and far between.
Yeah, I see what you mean about the pro lifer comparison. I also hadn’t read her other comment that you mentioned, and it does colour things differently.
“There are PLENTY of resources for those who are interested in learning about parenting, babies and all the primary colored trappings that go along.”
Oh my god, I was in Borders the other day and there are walls of info on parenting and not one book on NOT parenting. I asked at the counter and got stares as though I had asked for a book on manufacturing home made weapons or something.
I’m just glad I’m going through this now and not 50 years ago.
As usually the comments are filled with insight, intelligence and balanced understanding. Which is some of the reasons why I find myself on this blog.
Usually I am all for the peaceful approach (but less now after the fence is gone). If we go back to the original topic of this post you might say I am in some state of mind these days and maybe therefore I wont let Elisabethm get away so easy.
So if we take away the sun, warm breeze and all the flowers packed into Elisabetm`s comments what do we really see?
Could it be that she got tired of just being one in many when attending on mothers blog complaining about the “toughest job in the world”? Or maybe she got so filled with confidence that she ran of on a crusade to save the lost ones?
Most probably she torments herself with thoughts on what went wrong with the broken marriage and asked herself if it all would be different without the kids. Sure she loves her children but it has really been hard work and just maybe the thought of the kids not being there occured more than once…?
Anyway it makes her feel better to load off her conflicting thoughts here. And lets face it, she might have nowhere else…?!
Sorry, but it pissed me off..
The glib chirpiness of (some of the) childed gets my goat too. I was on another forum, where a poster was advocating parenthood with a cheerful “Go on, give it a go!”
No.
“Give it a go” is something you say about speed dating, or trying a new hairstyle, or exotic cusine. It is NOT something anyone should say about the important and life-transforming business of bringing a new human being into this world (and then caring for said being for the next 19 years). Is it any wonder that there are so many unhappy parents and children, and so many broken marriages, when the decision to bear children is discussed in terms that better fit choosing candy for the cinema?
Fence-sitters, at least, think about their choices.
My friend is childfree, but I think she is less certain about it than I am. She was talking to her mum (who didn’t want kids, but found herself pregnant and went with it) about it and her mum said “it really IS the most amazing thing I’ve ever done, you just can’t describe how wonderful it is and you can’t understand it until you’ve experienced it – HOWEVER logically the best decision is not to have kids.” Her mum is really supportive either way, which is great.
We agreed that the way people talk about having kids is the same as the way people talk about taking drugs. I’ve lost count of the people who have told me that various drugs are “so amazing” and I “have to try it” – I never have and guess what? If I’m missing out on some incredible experience, I don’t mind! I still feel happy and fulfilled and have never wondered what I’m missing. I also have all my brain cells fully operational and don’t suffer from the various odd psychological things that my long term drug taking friends are now going through.
I really think that the way some people talk about having kids and the way others talk about taking drugs is very similar, and for me that pretty much says it all.
I wholeheartedly agree, Soldatka! Having children is not something that one takes a crack at on a whim! I am guessing that maybe 1 out ten people considers fully their decision to become a parent and puts their heart and soul into the task.
Forgive me for continuing to beat a thread hijacker, but I didn’t notice that eliz mentioned the happiness of her children who undoubtedly were impacted by her unhappy marriage. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see parenting reviews from the children of the many self-proclaimed happy and very excellent parents? Betting on some major disconnects there.
“I wonder here if there isn’t something going on where people are looking to validate their choice, rather than just making it?”
I love this. Especially that it’s coming from a divorcee.
The logic is also fab – it’s the same backwards nonsense that bigots spew – “I don’t hate gays and they can do whatever they like, but why do they have to TELL people they’re gay and why do they have to be so OBVIOUS about it? Why can’t they just act NORMAL?” Um yeah, totally.
Hehe..really enjoyd the last few comments.
Can only add..:ChildFREE and loving it!!!
I’ve been married for almost 30 years, and neither my spouse nor myself have ever regretted not having children. Not ever, not even for a minute.
As to Elizabeth (and other parents who post to CF forums) I have found they usually are unhappy with their choice in life, and as they say, misery loves company. JMO
I don’t post here often but I read everything that’s written. I love this blog. I am a fence sitter and I like the fact that this blog is informative, well written, and thought provoking. Thanks, britgirl, and everyone else for a great blog that I am always eager to read.
“I really think that the way some people talk about having kids and the way others talk about taking drugs is very similar, and for me that pretty much says it all.”
Serrin, I hadn’t thought of it that way at all, but it is so true! I was never interested in drug taking either, I couldn’t figure out how people couldn’t see how sad it was that they needed some sort of drug to have fun – they weren’t capable of fun all by themselves. How many drug takers don’t like their lives, and so take drugs hoping for some temporary relief, and some social benefits (fitting in, etc.)? Hmmm, I am now trying to figure out a way to use it as a reverse bingo…
Soldatka – I like your “give it a go” comment. I get that one all the time. For some reason, people don’t seem to get you can’t just return it to the store if you don’t like it.
I’m not even going to pretend, I did gather from the posts that this is a “childfree” website, and that anyone with children are not allowed if they have a different opinion. But I just can’t help myself. Yes, obviously I have children, 2 to be exact. I had them early and yadda yadda yadda. My oldest sister has always maintained that she did not want children, especially seeing all I went through to raise my children. She worked her job, went out and spent her earning on Coach purses and other useless crap. She was irresponsible, selfish and inconsiderate. She was married, about 4 years ago I would say. Her husband has a great job, they had new cars, they had all sorts of ME-time to themselves. They bought a big old new house, with a bunch of empty rooms. Of course as time went on, and she started approaching 30, and she began to realize that her life held no purpose, she started rethinking the whole not having kids thing. So her and her husband decided to try for a baby. They tried for 2 years, and finally, with the help of a fertility specialist, and after a lot of heartache and money, they were pregnant. My sister just had her baby and he was born at 28 weeks. Her pregnancy was full of complications. Now her baby is going to be in the hospital for at least the next 2 months and everyday my sister doesn’t know what problems he will have that day. My point is this. Whether or not you all want to believe it, your purpose on this planet is to REPRODUCE. It is what nature intended. Of the handful of people I have known that have claimed that they will never have children, not one has actually kept to that. My uncle has a brand new baby and he and his wife are in their 40’s. When you people finally realize that your lives have no meaning, and that you never did the one thing that you are on this earth to do, and your sitting in your houses with your plasma T.V’s drinking your mocha lattes, reading your books and listening to your jazz and being smarter and better then all of us people that have children, your going to change your mind. Then you will have babies with downs syndrome or some other horrible defect because you were too selfish to have children at the appropriate age. Or your children you have won’t have their parents at their graduation because you were too damn old to live long enough to see that day. All of which is completely unfair to a child, but hey, thats how you people roll. I hate to point out the obvious, but what if your respective parents had opted for “child free” and you were never born? Of course I am sure you all have argumemts regarding overpopulation and what not, but again, let me say, you are not on this earth to just shop and drink starbucks. I think this self-entitled selfish mindset, the “oh I don’t want to be inconvenienced by crying kids” mentality that is contributing to the moral decay in this world.
@Jenna It’s rather a pity your parents didn’t opt for the childfree option… at least then we’d be spared having read a bout of your verbal idiocy. I guess your kids aren’t keeping you busy enough so it’s time for you to go searching for childfree blogs to offer your bizarre rantings. Sorry you’re so unhappy Jenna, but tough cheese. We’re not. Now, go be about your Purpose, and stop wasting time bleating here.
OMG!!!!! I can’t believe someone could be so dumb (you must have been on Jerry Spinger at some point in your life right?) – Only an individual can decide what brings meaning to their lives…or are you suggesting you decided this for everyone else?
Mother Theresa….childfree…are you telling me her life had no meaning ???!!!! Newflash brainiac – life has meaning in many ways for many people – having kids is not an exclusive way to achieve a meaningful life. You can’t even hold a thought long enough it seems to string a logical argument together (being catholic has no bearing on your original point about a life with no kids having no meaning).
Jenna – the thing about being child free (it seems to me) is that it’s about being able to decide not to bring kids into this world….just because it’s what ‘nature’ intended doesn’t mean we have to do it (otherwise we’d still all be running round screwing and killing each other the whole time!!!). I would say if you want to have kids that’s fantastic and you should….but please don’t tell anyone that they are ‘wrong’ for not thinking like you!
And finally, your comments about ‘down’s’ reveals what an odious, knuckle dragger you are – by all means express your opinion…but come on….try putting thos couple of brain cells to use 1st!
PS – Moral decay…..according to what definition – I can’t wait to see how you define that??!
It’s our purpose to reproduce, is it? I don’t think nature intended for excessive reproduction of a species that is destroying the planet. Reproduction is to ensure the survival of a species. With over 6 billion of us, I don’t think the human race is under any risk of extinction and I don’t think the planet will be worse off if a couple of million decide not to reproduce.
Anyway I think the vicious backlash that some childed people have is simple cognitive dissonance. When you have paid a heavy price for something (in terms of childbearing, sleepless nights, frustration) of course you’d want to believe that it is the best thing ever and don’t want to even entertain any thought that indicates otherwise. Since there are plenty of other harried parents it is even easier to convince yourself that you are happy and doing the right thing. In fact a female’s body is designed to swamp her with ‘happy hormones’ when she produces young – it is nature’s way of ensuring that she’ll protect it and won’t kill it or eat it or whatever. The ‘pure love like no other’ is simply a biological response. The fact that some childed people are more hell-bent on getting child-free people they don’t even know that well to reproduce seems more like schadenfreude to me; they have gone through hell raising children (without stopping to think that they had a choice) and don’t want the child-free to get off lightly and do things that give them joy.
And please, if your argument for breeding is that it is what nature intended then don’t talk about leading a meaningful life. Try telling Mother Teresa, Henrietta Szold, Copernicus, Tesla, the Wright Brothers, the Dalai Lama etc., that their lives didn’t/don’t have any meaning. Many of whom who did more for society than most people do. Passing on your genes, on the other hand, is pretty easy. It is society that pays for bad parenting.
Wow, what a loser! Apparently our purpose is to spread our legs and pop out litters. This Down-syndromed loser (single and lonely and poor, if you read between the lines) doesn’t even dignify a response.
“your sitting in your houses with your plasma T.V’s drinking your mocha lattes, reading your books and listening to your jazz and being smarter and better then all of us people that have children, your going to change your mind.”
Better than sitting in a messy house day after day popping ready-meals into the microwave while trying to herd hyper kids to the table and getting them to eat their food rather than throw it on the floor and only being able to dream of the life where one can have a quiet peaceful evening relaxing with a mocha latte and a nice book in hand or *gasp!* having the time to have a meaningful conversation with one’s SO.
Well I think so anyway
And I’d rather regret not having children than regret having them.
Hi Jenna,
I am sorry you are so unhappy. Perhaps you are spending too much time giving unsolicited, breathtakingly flawed advice on internet blogs and message boards? Will you be visiting the liberal Democrats, pro-choice and gay rights forums next? Not to worry, help is available to you:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/04/13/mothers.internet.addiction/
Incidentally, if I were inclined to enjoy a $5.00 latte from Starbucks in one of the three locations near my home, I would not be able to find a seat as they are all filled to bursting every day with mothers, babies and tank-sized strollers.
I’d be unhappy too if I went through the long and painful process of producing offspring for the sake of fulfilling what I was brainwashed into believing was my purpose on this planet and then saw other people who thought about it thoroughly first and are happy living their life the way they wanted to.
If I was meant to reproduce, I’d have been born a photocopier.
“your sitting in your houses with your plasma T.V’s drinking your mocha lattes, reading your books and listening to your jazz and being smarter and better then all of us people that have children, your going to change your mind”
Age 38 and counting, Jenna, no twinges yet, but thankfully I spent enough time with my books to be able to spell and punctuate correctly. Your post reeks of bitterness towards those who have made different life choices than you. You know, happy people don’t need to rubbish other peoples’ choices.
As for “moral decay” (doesn’t that phrase sound high and mighty?”, aren’t you glad I’m not going to raise another generation of decadent hedonists to drink lattes, listen to jazz and read – HORROR! – books? Don’t project your inferiority complex onto us, cupcake. If your life isn’t great, then it’s up to YOU to do something about it.
Well aren’t I popular? Soldatka, before criticizing my punctuation you should check yours. You don’t need to be a photocopier to reproduce, you just need reproductive organs, which I assume you have. I respect that you all assume to know about my life, and my choices since I went on and did the same thing to you. I assume that you all are selfish, self centered people because I have only your posts to go by. I assure you that I do not have an inferiority complex, cupcake. I would rather have my two children ANYDAY then have the meaningless existence that you people enjoy. Someone brought up Mother Theresa as an example of a child free person who contributed something significant to this world, but be honest, none of you are Mother Teresa. I think it is actually kind of shameful that anyone would even make that comparison. Mother Teresa also was a Catholic, and if I am correct, they believe that men and women are here to reproduce. og12, even though I don’t dignify a response, thank you for responding. Contrary to what you all obviously believe, I am quite happy with my choices. I did sacrafice a lot in my life when my children were babies, but sacrafices are what make people stromg and honorable. Having children is just one example of this. Have any of you ever known what it is to sacrafice for someone else? Or do you all wait until your egss are too old and nasty to “breed” and go out and buy other peoples babies. Or maybe spend tens of thousands and fertility treatments. Talk about a waste of time and resources. Like someone else had mentioned in another post, I was googling information on vasectomy reversals and it brought up this website. I was not “trolling the internet” for websites such as these. But after reading the absolute condescension you all spew for the people who made different choices than you (wow, the same thing you accuse me of) I felt like I wanted to just add my 2 cents. Granted I know none of you wanted it, but that is what makes it so fun. Although you have all made up your minds about me, and what my life is like I will clear a few things up. First, although I have 2 children I still manage to go to school so that I can be productive in other ways. My life is mostly about my children but yet I am able to enjoy my husband as well and we have plenty of meaningful conversation. My children do take up most of my time, but they are in school so that is when I am on the internet. I don’t have to be selfish to have a life, or to be happy. I don’t have to be child free to enjoy books or jazz, but my life will always have a higher purpose. I do respect that you don’t want children, it would probably be for the best anyway. I don’t respect people that talk about children the way you people do, or the way you make judgements on all people that have children, and what their lives must be like.