I’m off to the UK this evening for a few days. I wanted to do a post for while I was away, but I ran out of time. So those of you who sent me links just don’t know what life savers you are, because this very short post comes directly from a link. I’ll save my intended post for when I’m back. Thanks again to everyone who sends me links… they are very bloggable and I will be getting to them. For now, while I’m waiting for my cab to come and pick us up (imminently, I might add) have a read of this post – thank you Lee.
I read this article and it was so much like a reflection of what we all go through. While we are happy to be childfree, there’s a stubborn refusal of anyone else to believe that we could be. So we get the side-barbs, the bingoes (nowadays disguised as gung-ho trilling approval but bingoes nonetheless) and the numerous comments we just let pass, because it isn’t worth the hassle. It puzzles me why some people simply won’t accept that we are happy to be as we are… and that we dont’ need the addition of a child to make us “more happy.”
It’s bemusing that even as we say we don’t want kids there are those around us, waiting with bated breath for us to change our minds, capitulate, “fall off the fence” – yes, fall onto their side of the argument. Sorry, it isn’t going to happen. I’m amused when people say that they saw others had a child so they had one too…
Enjoy being childfree, and I’ll be back online soon.
BG
{ 50 comments… read them below or add one }
I like this article – it’s positive without being defensive, yet flags up the constant sideways barbs that the CF are prone to, coming even from the most well-meaning of people (although I do wish the author would stick to ‘childfree’ rather than ‘childless’!).
I received a most unexpected bingo from my sister a few years ago. Although my sister is twelve years older than me, we have always got on extremely well and I would count her as one of my strongest allies. From being a fairly resolute fence sitter for a long time (not in the least bit maternal or prone to cooing over babies), she had my niece and nephew in a short space of time, the first when she was 36.
She was home for a brief visit (she lives in Chile) and was staying with my mother. I had popped over for a brief visit which, unfortunately, coincided with a visit from one of my sister’s oldest friends (one of those women who, from being an incredibly, strong and intelligent woman, popped out a kid later in life and turned into a mombie, replete with the most horrifically behaved child I have ever come across).
As we were clearing up the devastation that said child had left in his wake, my mother (who is surprisingly accepting of my CF status) said, jokingly: “So, Rhona, feeling all snuggly and maternal?!”
I replied in a rather haunted voice that, if anything, it made me more determined than ever to stick pins in my eyes before having a child.
On hearing this, my sister casually replied: “Oh, you’ll change your mind – I mean, there’s no way I was ready for kids at your age.”
I was very, VERY upset by this – I’m a grown woman, not a 16-year-old teenager (although I’m not implying that this means you know your own mind any less). Coming from somebody who I thought was very much a defender of people being sure of their own opinions, wrapped up in some awful folksy ‘ah, but I’m a mother now and I know EVERYTHING’ rubbish…I was quite taken aback.
Happily, my mother piped up: “Hm, no, I think you’ve been left to carry the genetic load!”
To be honest, my sister and I have not been as close since she had her children and even less close since she made this statement, which makes me sad. However, it just goes to show the insidious effect of society on the CF and how the decision to remain CF can affect relationships, even within families.
To all the CF out there – more power to your elbow! And BG – I hope you have a great time here in the UK, I’m afraid the weather isn’t great at the moment but hope that won’t spoil your trip!
I think it’s absolutely true that, unless you have children, you don’t know a certain kind of love. I’m almost positive a parent’s love for his or her child is one of the strongest there is.
But, I don’t care to experience it. I have plenty of love in my life, and quite honestly, in addition to simply not wanting children because I don’t crave the lifestyle, I don’t want to experience the worry that accompanies loving someone that much.
My wife told me once that in the eyes of some older members of her family (grandmother and aunts, etc.) that “having children legitimizes you” and that you weren’t as entitled to opinions on various topics. While that doesn’t bother me personally (I’ll gladly not be an expert on teething and diaper rash), it hurts me that my wife is made to feel this way, and in turn, it affects our relationship as a couple because it depresses her and drains her energy.
What, changing dirty diapers and putting up with screaming and tantrums legitimizes someone? Chauffeuring children from one practice or activity to another makes me a more noble or worthwhile person? Yes, that does kind of tick me off, and it makes me less comfortable spending time with my in-law family than I would be otherwise.
Have a safe and pleasant trip, Britgirl! Thanks again for all the effort you put in for Like It Is — it’s a valuable resource for anyone who is or is considering childfreedom!
Kristen:
As an only child, when someone says I’ll never know the love of a child, I think about not having any siblings. I’ll never experience the love of a child, but I also will never experience the love of a brother or sister. Sometimes I think it would’ve been kind of cool to have other kids around the house (or now, as I’m older, to share dealing with parental health and care issues) with me, but on the whole, I accept that I’m an “only” and deal with it. That’s just one aspect of life I don’t have. Does that mean I can’t love my wife, can’t love my parents, can’t love friends or pets? Not at all. Can those types of love be just as strong or fulfilling as a love for a child? Absolutely.
It’s impossible to experience every single thing in the world — the key is to make the most of the experiences one does have, IMO.
ChrisOh, what your wife’s family simply means (I’m guessing) is that because she is not a mother, her experiences are very limited when it comes to discussions on anything child-related from a parental perspective. That’s all! And in reality, it makes sense. It does not mean that she is not as worthy as the other childed woman. If she has any sense of reality, she’ll know that she is.
As for the belief that we CF cannot truly be happy without children, my response is simply that I don’t care whether others think me unhappy without children, because I know in my heart that I am.
Its strange how CF NOT by choice are kind of accepted while those who CHOSE to be CF are seen as the devil himself. While CF not by choice are pittied about how great life could be without kids and that there are no absolute life-script, CF by choice are persecuted every step of the way. In other words, do like the rest of us or you better have a very very very very good apology for it (by choice is definetly not one of them).
Of course you risk to miss out when you retire and have no grandchildren to spoil. Also you should be prepared to run a little bit more solo in your life since you are free from many of the social obligations parents attend to. But if you did not consider this before you chose to be CF then I would say you didnt do the homework.
Its no point to hesitate about your choices. Every decision are correct in the exact moment you make them…and therefore also many decisions are modified along the way. If you pass a certain age and did not reproduce then you could still adopt or become fosterparent. If you get even older and have no kids then maybe its time to accept that you never will and believe its for a reason.
Ann Landers always manage to set things in perspective for me.
http://www.childfree.net/potpourri_annlanders.html
Kawi: 100% agree in your last paragraph.
testing..
Kawi:
Probably that is what my wife’s relatives think, you’re right — but since children seem to be the main topic of conversation amongst any childed family members, she feels excluded because of it.
Chris said, “… I also will never experience the love of a brother or sister. Sometimes I think it would’ve been kind of cool to have other kids around the house … ”
I have a brother AND a sister, and I don’t think you’re missing that much.
I get along with both, but we have absolutely nothing in common (except that all of us have no children of our own), neither of them understand or know me very well, and I don’t really like either of them as people (which is to say, if we were not related, very likely we would not be friends).
If you’re referring to that Robert Frost quote, “Home is the place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in,” then yeah, there is that sort of bonding — but if I had to live with either of them I would go batshit insane.
My bf’s family is similarly structured. He has a brother and sister also. Very little in common, don’t really like each other, could never live with either of them as adults.
One of the most disappointing revelations of growing up, for me, was that just because you are born into a family does not automatically confer monumental parental or sibling love, or even like, much less understanding. That is one of the myths that is used to get people to buy into the Ponzi scheme of family life.
And Kristen, you were a child, so you know the other side of that “greatest love” a parent has — which often doesn’t turn out to be that great either. Parents are imperfect people, just like everybody else, and their love is imperfect, just like everyone else’s.
Firefly – well said – that Robert Frost quote sums it all up. We may be related to one another genetically, but it leaves no room for personality or character. I have a couple of cousins, who, although biologically brother and sister, could not be less alike and hate one another.
That’s why I can’t help but, when I hear that a couple are trying for ‘a little brother or sister’, think, “Why bother?”.
Maybe that’s very cynical, but I’ve heard of more sibling relationships that have gone awry than otherwise.
Having a brother or sister is no guarantee of awesomeness. Of course, it can be cool, but more often it isn’t. It just is. It also depends on where you come in the sibling pecking order… if you’re the eldest – like I am it isn’t all sweetness and light. You are the example for everything… right or wrong. That’s just the way it is. I get on very well with my brothers and sisters, but I know of some sibling relationships that are horrendously dysfunctional – just like families. In fact, it’s as if the siblings aren’t of the same family at all. And since you don’t get to choose your relationships you have to put up with what you get – good or bad.
@ChrisOH – I think it should bother anyone that some outside action is required to “legitimize” a person’s existence – as in having babies. The fact is most of society thinks that way when it comes to children. And one of the reasons people have children is because they want to fit in, be one of the crowd, be “legitimate”. The alternative is scary for them. It’s insiduous, even when it is seemingly not deliberate ( a lot of the time it is deliberate).
It can be difficult, but In think the only ones who are going to break that exclusion zone are the childfree by raising an alternative point of view when we’re in childed conversation. Or, even better, spending less time with family if they cause feelings of exclusion and discomfort – and letting them know the behaviour has to change if they want the pleasure of your company. I remove myself from situations that don’t enhance. I have found that when you make a stand it sends a message.
The problem with the “I’ll never know the love of….” is that speaks to regret and it pre-supposes that one needs to know (whatever it is one will never know or doesn’t know) to be complete. I don’t think that’s true at all. It is just one more thing to hit the childfree over the head with to coin a phrase. Just one more thing the childfree “lack…”
As has been said there are many kinds of love, just as valid, just as strong and while people talk only of the kodak “love moments” they often fail to mention that we’ll also never experience the teenage angst and their child saying “I hate you!” as they bail them yet again. Or the times when they are crossing their fingers and toes hoping against hope their child just makes it into a decent adult.
I sent Brit Girl this link because I identified strongly with the woman writing the article. As I’ve said before, I don’t dislike kids, nor do I think I would make a bad parent. I’ve had my brother-in-law tell me a million times that it’s a waste that my husband and I aren’t going to have kids because we would make excellent parents. Based on the kids my brother-in-law sees in his eleven-year-old son’s class, the number of people who have kids that suck as parents is large. He said spend five minutes with the kids and you’ll know what the parents are like without even meeting them.
Like the author of the article, I carried a somehow vague notion that I would have children some day. That feeling always remained vague and as more time passed it sort of just dissipated. I know myself well enough to know that if something is important to me I will be very passionate about it, almost to the point of obsession. I never felt that way about babies or children. On a scale of one to ten, ten being highest, my interest level in kids is about a one.
I really don’t buy into the love like no other thing. I just see that as more propaganda. It is not possible to qualify and quantify any one person’s love for another human being. I think there is a protective animal instinct that most parents have for an infant or young child but I’m not sure it carries through to adulthood with such intensity. And as I’ve said before, how many people are talking about the love they expect their children to have for them as opposed to the love they expect to have for their children.
I also think that most parent’s who say it’s the most important or rewarding thing they have ever done are usually women and stay at home moms. If they had children young they probably didn’t have that many other life experiences period, so I’m not sure what they are comparing.
For some people high school never ends, and the competition keeps going until they draw their last breath. Oh, you don’t have a boyfriend? Oh, you’re not engaged? Oh, you’re not married? Oh, you don’t have kids? Oh, your kids aren’t in private school? I’m speaking as an American and someone who lives in NYC and people are always jostling for position in the social hierarchy and if they have a child and you don’t for the feeble minded that puts them one notch up on the ladder. What they don’t realize is that for people like me or the woman who wrote this article, that look on my face is not wistfulness or longing. It’s sheer boredom! I don’t want to hear about their kids for two hours any more than they want to hear about my job, hobbies, activist work, vacation or my sister’s stubborn personality. We’re all indoctrinated to think that having a child is the most important thing in the world. It only is if you think it is. I don’t and that doesn’t make me cold-hearted, defective, selfish, a bad person, lonely or unhappy anymore than having a child makes someone smart, kind, generous, brave, morally superior or happy.
I’d like to see a moratorium on child-centric media for a year to see how that effects the birthrate. If we didn’t have to see nappy commercials and read about the latest celeb offspring every day, I honestly wonder how many people would be so fired up to become parents, now that birth control is readily available and we don’t need junior and co, to help us plow the north forty.
Though many would have us believe otherwise, life choices are not black and white. I believe we are all comprised of many complicated shades of gray and as such shouldn’t be expected to follow some societal formula for “happiness”. I am lucky enough to have an evolved brain so I can decide for myself what makes me happy. Thank you!
I can take shit because I smile inside when I think of me going home to quiet house but the parent going home to a war-zone. So I dont worry too much of being the odd one since I got something no bingo or group-pressure can take away…FREEDOM!
I often listen to political debates and then try to imagine how things would be if what they were talking about really had any influence on my life (f.ex. debates about school). Most of times I end up saying to my self…I am sooo glad it is not me…
Parents hang on to the script and rules of the group because every other way would remind them of their misery.
I want to share a couple of stories with you.
This weeek I was away two days for a work course on success strategies. At some point, a man and a woman sitting near me were discussing overtime hours and saying how late they could allow themselves to come home to still see their kids before their bedtime. Another man was listening in and he piped up “I can get home whenever I want, my cat is always happy to see me!”. I do not know this man and have no idea if he and his wife are CF, but I couldn’t help but laugh in delight and give him the thumbs up
Another man attending the course started the presentation rounds by saying that his driving force in life are his 18 months old twin girls. Hmm, okay. I wonder what his driving force was before they were born, oh had he none? But what made me want to scream is that when I got up from my place to go close a window, I saw that he kept two pictures of them in front of him on his desk all day long. A grown man in his early 40s I’d say. Uh, if they had been born 18 days before, okay… but 18 months???? This is the same guy who skipped dinner on the evening of the first day, saying he was feeling unwell (he was just fine and making plenty of jokes half an hour before that), and when I asked him on the following morning if he was feeling better he said that it had felt SO good to sleep through the night without having to care for the twins, immediately adding “oh of course I miss them like crazy… but it did feel so good to have a normal night”, he went on repeating.
@SwissBarb – any time anybody that I am working with or considering working with (I’m a freelance consultant) makes a comment about their kids at an initial meeting, I mentally tick them off my list of ‘clients I like and respect’.
I have three horses who are the light of my life, but I don’t bring them up in conversation with a fellow professional I’ve just met – they’re my hobby, part of my private life and I make an effort to keep my work and home lives seperate (I’d go mad otherwise!).
I really, really – in the nicest possible sense – couldn’t give a toss about somebody else’s kids. I just want to know if they’re good at what they do and if they are likely to pay their invoices on time.
There are a few exceptions – I have a few clients who I know have kids and I will ask after their families – however, it’s generally because I have either a) known them for a long time and have probably met their OHs and kids (then it’s just about manners) or b) it’s a family business. If I know a client has a dog/cat/hamster etc, I’ll probably ask after them, too – but only after a certain relationship has been established between us.
I just find it incredibly unprofessional if somebody turns up looking tired/unkempt etc and says, “Oh, the kids kept me up all night.”
I am always tempted to reply, “Yes, I’ve been up since 5am mucking out, but I somehow, weirdly, found the time to pick the shavings out of my hair, have a shower, a cup of coffee and remember to bring along my presentation. That’s because I’m a PROFESSIONAL and I keep my home life out of work life.”
Also, don’t get me started on people who keep photos of their kids on their desk or as a screensaver. I once worked with a pregnant woman whose screensaver was a copy of her ULTRASOUND. How can I possibly take somebody seriously when I’ve just had a close up view of their internal organs?! That’s just super weird…
The problem with the “I’ll never know the love of….” is that speaks to regret and it pre-supposes that one needs to know (whatever it is one will never know or doesn’t know) to be complete.
If it’s said that way, sure – it sounds like regret. What we need to work on is the wording. Make it sound more like, “I’ll never know the flavor of anchovies on liver – and I’m quite happy with that.”
As to the person who said they don’t buy the “love like no other” thing…as a perfectly happy childfree person with absolutely no desire to experience that love, I really do think the love a parent has for his or her child (assuming the parent isn’t a batterer or some other misfit) is probably more powerful than what romantic partners feel – and certainly more powerful than what children feel for their parents.
Nothing wrong with that. Doesn’t mean we should feel pressured to want to experience it, though. “You want to feel it? Have your kids. And try to hold onto that feeling any time you want to run away screaming.”
That’s what I say.
As the person who said that I don’t buy the “love like no other thing”–I wasn’t only referring to romantic love. Like the woman who wrote the linked article, I was referring to love for other family and friends as well as romantic partners. I personally don’t feel any pressure to have a child simply because someone makes that comment–or any other comment. I just think it’s a rather meaningless, unverifiable, throwaway line that is all too often directed at the child free to make them feel uncomfortable or as britgirl said, incomplete. I’m sure that the feeling a mother has for her child is indeed different than what she feels for her spouse. The child is a dependent creature whose survival depends on its parents care which completely changes and often distorts the dynamic. Love that is self-selecting is more complicated but that doesn’t mean it is less intense. If one were inclined, one could argue that because self selecting love is not based upon instinct it is of a higher form.
The capacity for love lies within an individual, not one group as opposed to another. My point (and what I took away from the author of the article) is why the need to even compare, other than to try to make someone else feel a lack?
What is the saying, if we all woke up tomorrow morning and were all exactly equal, by noon a new war would break out over some previously unidentified competitive metric. Yawn.
So if the love you feel for a child is stronger than any other love. I still think the most important questions are if you are ready to give up everything else for such love and if love alone will make you happy?!
Having children can awake other feelings alongside love, namely fear, rage and disappointment.
So, anyone who maintains your life isn’t complete without that special kind of love presumably is prepared to experience fear like they have never felt before, rage like they have never felt before, disappointment like they have never felt before. Is that to be recommended too?
Soldatka –
I think I’ve heard parents say “It’s worth it.”
(I disagree.)
Kristen said, “I really do think the love a parent has for his or her child (assuming the parent isn’t a batterer or some other misfit) is probably more powerful than what romantic partners feel – and certainly more powerful than what children feel for their parents.”
Sorry, but I don’t agree either. I don’t think emotions in themselves are so finely cut.
I think there is one emotion — love — with lots of different mental overlays composed of ideas held by the individual and myths that circulate in society. ‘Romantic’ love, ‘parental’ love, ‘platonic’ love: it’s the same emotion, expressed as allowed by the framework of ideas.
In terms of biology, the same chemical that is released in mothers when they nurse children is also released during the process of ‘falling in love.’
I believe humans are capable of nurturing and protecting one another and smaller creatures, but I don’t think there is any such thing as a hard-wired ‘parental’ love.
For one thing, through history, children were not placed on a pedestal the way they are now. Parents loved their children, but they were mostly useful, either as labor or as trade objects, as in royal marriages. If the ‘parental love like no other’ were a fact, would that situation really have arisen?
Animal studies also contradict the idea: many first-time primate mothers lose their babies because they are inexperienced. If it were a matter of ‘instinct’ or ‘genes’ — like breathing, say — would that happen?
And in lion prides, when rival lions take over, they kill the existing cubs, and the lionesses don’t defend their offspring to the death. They simply have more with the new lions.
If you want to accept that set of ideas about ‘parental’ love and at the same time say you don’t want it, that’s up to you. However, I think it’s dicey to do that; you open yourself to all kinds of traps.
It’s like admitting the existence of a God and then saying ‘but I don’t believe anyway.’
I just want to add to the whole “love like no other” debate that no two relationships are the same. I have two brothers and while I love them both (in the family way) I don’t love them in the same way. My little brother is the one I can discuss our common interests with, my older brother is the one I can discuss philosophy and politics with.
It’s the same with the parent-child relationship. While a parent may or may not love all their children equally, I doubt any parent loves all their children in exactly the same way. Children are peole too and the fact that the parent shares DNA with them does not automatically guarantee the same degree of compatibility.
And not all parental love the same way. Some can barely stand to let their child out of their sight, others love their children to pieces but also enjoy adult company, others might love their children, but more as friends to come than as children.
When someone remarries after being widowed they will rarely say that this relationship is exactly the same as their previous. Love is many things, and even similar relationships (parent-child or spouse-spouse) are different based on the people involved.
firefly –
Many good points, and you’re probably right about any feelings creatures have (or don’t have) toward offspring.
But I think comparing people to lions also allows for arguments, such as, “If people are like animals, we don’t experience love at all, but rather firing neurons…”
I understand there are several variations and levels of love – I’ve been around just long enough to have experienced many of them, myself. What I might be guilty of doing is combining what is probably as close to unconditional love as a person can feel (more common in familial relationships; not so common in romantic) combined with protectiveness.
What I’m not understanding, here, is the outright disinclination to consider the possibility that a parent’s love for a child (the human kind, and typically speaking, not absolutely) might very well be more intense than the love adults feel for one another.
I don’t agree at all that recognizing such a feeling is like saying “I believe God exists, but I choose not to believe in it.” That’s a faulty comparison – if you believe, you believe. There’s a clear contradiction that’s not present in what I’m saying.
Nor does it open me up to disagreements to say I think there is a uniquely powerful element (“powerful” does not equal “superior,” understand) in parental love but that I don’t want it. There are many things I can think are “powerful” or even downright lovely, but that I don’t need or want to experience.
I’m sure it’s exhilarating as hell for some people to jump out of an airplane, for example. But knowing this doesn’t mean I’m interested in doing it. And I can believe what my friends tell me about how much they love their children, how they love them like nothing they’ve ever loved (in spite of all the problems), including their spouses (whom they’d previously loved the most, until the children came), and very easily – and resolutely and vehemently – NOT want that.
Acknowledging is not the same as desiring. Nor is appreciating.
And acknowledging a difference in the love/protector intensity of emotion also doesn’t put it on a pedestal. Different is simply different – period. There’s no rule that says different has to be better or worse. Parents and childfree would get along so much better if there weren’t so much “My way is better” going on, or so much judgment (from both sides).
You can acknowledge there is a love like no other or you can acknowledge that (some) parents claim to feel such love.
@Kirsten and all…
“I think it’s absolutely true that, unless you have children, you don’t know a certain kind of love. I’m almost positive a parent’s love for his or her child is one of the strongest there is.”
I’m finding this “love scale comparison” debate fascinating. People tell me that unless i had a child I couldn’t possibly understand this instinctual, powerful, almighty love… because only a mother can feel it… and on and on. (And they almost always do go on.) It’s not that I disbelieve them, it’s that I think it’s their own experience. I believe it is ONE of the strongest there is, but not necessarily the strongest. If someone risks their life for another because they love them knowing full well that they might die but the person they are risking their life for will live… that’s a pretty powerful love too.
The fact is I don’t feel there’s any basis for comparison. Each person feels what they feel and if that feeling is the strongest they’ve ever felt, it is.
In almost every case the love for a child love is always made as a comparison… every other love, feeling, emotion etc is made subordinate (and, yes, lesser) to this all-encompassing mother love. Which leaves me wondering what about those mothers (it’s always always mothers, not fathers) who don’t feel anything like that love when their offspring are born, but are haunted by the fact that they should be feeling it… if they don’t there is something wrong with them. It’s a bit like that other myth – the maternal instinct that all women supposedly have which leads us all to want to reproduce (supposedly).
I know I’m not interested in experiencing this parental love. I believe it’s powerful… as are other types of love.
But it would be nice if it wasn’t used in the bingo form it usually is when the childed are talking about having kids to the childfree. It’s never “count yourself lucky that you’ll never know…” It’s you’ll never know this love that makes women feel like REAL women, and frankly makes everything else unimportant.” (Subtext mine) It’s left to the childfree to parse it into the things they will not be missing, however it is almost always intended to imply the childfree personis lacking some important essence of life when they are not.
I should add that back when my husband and I were talking about having children, I thought it was quite possible I might love a child more than I did him. It may have been beyond my control, since said child would be dependent and defenceless and, more to the point – mine/ours. I also thought it could be possible that I’d have a child and not love it as much as I should…neither option was particularly encouraging. I didn’t want one enough to want to find out.
I think that firefly pointed out a very interesting thing (and great minds think alike
because I was thinking along the same line earlier today while reflecting on Mother’s Day): the parental love we know today is something very cultural, it hasn’t always been that way and it probably isn’t that way all over the world even today.
The fact that in our society people tend to have 2-3 children at most, on average, seems to imply they put much more emotional value into them, compared to families where some 6-8 kids were the rule maybe 150 years ago but it was less tragic if one or two died, because people were used to that.
I think children were also seen as little persons who had to grow up and be independent and bring money home as soon as possible, as opposed to little gods nowadays.
In honor of “Mother’s Day” a book review relevant to the discussion.
The book’s author previously wrote an essay in the New York Times about how she loves her husband more than her children (new book review and essay link below) and was apparently vilified by gang o’ mommy’s in public and on Oprah for having the courage to say so. I think this ties in nicely to the “angry mommy” discussion.
I have to wonder if the women angry at the author really love their children more, or as she points out in her essay, have just redirected their love and energy because they have to (which also ties in to the previous discussion on marriages failing because of kids). And are they angry at her because she is in their minds a “bad mom” or because they are jealous that she is still madly in love with her husband and cannot tolerate the idea of losing him? She points out that moms in her group were all grousing because of their lack of sex and energy. As long as everyone was equally miserable they were okay, but when one woman had the courage to stand up and say it doesn’t have to be that way, that woman became a pariah. Isn’t that how so many female parents routinely treat child free by choice women–or parents who admit they were happier before they had kids? There is safety and comfort in misery loves company numbers, but if somebody dares stand up and say, “Hey, wait a minute”, then the angry mob rallies to maintain the myth. As bravewolf previously said re: another article here, it’s not really taking a stand when the majority of the population has embarked on the same endeavor (parenting) and you know they’ll have your back if you go around spouting a trite cliche from the pro-parenting arsenal. In order to maintain their mental equilibrium, it’s in their best interest to do so.
Interesting reading….
Book review:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/books/review/Dominus-t.html?_r=1&hpw
Original blasphemous essay:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/fashion/27love.html
I also want to add and I think I made pretty clear, as it was in reference to an author’s comments in a specific article, that I was not judging people with children as a group.
I feel perfectly justified in sharing my contradictory opinion with individuals who try to isolate others with their thoughtless bingoes whether they be around child free, gay, black, atheist, Muslim, pink, green or yellow. If people don’t question the commonly accepted cultural “norms”, we ensure they remain with us. As history has shown, we have been led down many a dangerous path by going along to get along.
As a child free person, I have never tried to make a person with children feel uncomfortable or envious about my lifestyle. I wish I could say the same courtesy has been extended to me. Like the author of the article, (which is why it resonated and why I sent it to Brit Girl) I have heard a range of comments from “the love like no other”, to “gives true meaning to your life”, to “don’t you want to show your love to you husband by bearing his children” to “but don’t you get bored?” to “you don’t understand because you don’t have kids”. I could point out to these individuals that someone who subscribes to group think and is so oblivious and insensitive to other people by default, is probably not great parenting material, but that would be inappropriate. I just smile and nod and go my merry way. Feelings are not facts whether you are a parent or child free. What I have a problem with is when people frame them as such to support their own agenda.
And this is my final comment, I promise–:)
It is interesting what firefly pointed out about the chemicals released in new mothers that mimic the feelings of falling love. That makes sense to me given what a good friend of mine experienced following the birth of her second child.
Her body chemistry went into a state of chaos after birth and as a result, she could not connect to her son. She did not want to nurse him or even be with him. All she wanted was her husband by her side. Her doctor told her that her estrogen, progesterone and serotonin levels had not normalized after birth for some reason (could be hereditary) and the nurturing feeling she had after her first child was born did not kick in the same way for the second child. After taking an SSRI for a while, she started to feel better and was able to connect to and care for her son. Makes you think!
The strongest human feeling is survival instinct. We are almost 7 billion humans on this planet. We should start to think about how to shrink the population and then maybe get better living conditions for everyone.
I could become a parent if I wanted (for selfish reasons) to build a family around me since this gave the dynamics in life I wanted. But I would never become a parent just to experience the “greatest” love of all.
Of cours my opinion does not count since I am CF and especially in this matter since I am a man..How could I possible know what I am talking about..?:)
Is it always love or just the association of strong emotions? The human heart is inclined to bond with anything or anyone associated with an intensely felt emotion, no matter what it is. I wonder whether the combined despair, stress, hate, sadness, depression as well as the periods of happiness, contentment and adoration coalesce into a bundle of naked nerve endings many parents interpret as “love” because, to survive in their social circle as “good parents”, they have to.
“Also, don’t get me started on people who keep photos of their kids on their desk or as a screensaver. ”
I don’t mind that sort of thing. My desktop is always a photo from my travels – it makes me feel relaxed, calm and reminds me of why I am working (to make money to travel more!) I think that if a person is motivated/refreshed by a photo of their kids, then that’s fine. I have photos of my siblings in my office and I don’t consider that unprofessional. It makes me happy to see them. (The ultrasound one I will concede is a bit much though.)
On another note; my boyfriend and I had our first serious conversation last night about (me) not having kids. I asked him why he wants them and he was struck dumb for several moments. Um, you have wanted kids your whole life but you don’t know why? He asked why I don’t want them and I rattled off about ten reasons without even having to think.
However, I do actually think that he would be a fantastic parent. Some people are just meant to be parents I think. In the meantime, at least now we both know that we are in this for a good time, not a long time. (sigh)
There is no doubt in my mind that when we decide it’s time to move on to the next thing in our respective lives, I won’t ever regret that I walked away from him because of this. I think this has made me realise, not only how happy I am to be childfree, but how much happier.
my boyfriend and I had our first serious conversation last night about (me) not having kids. I asked him why he wants them and he was struck dumb for several moments. Um, you have wanted kids your whole life but you don’t know why? He asked why I don’t want them and I rattled off about ten reasons without even having to think.
It’s funny how often that happens. You would think more thought would go into having them than into NOT having them.
For the people who believe that parenting is indeed the hardest and most important job in the world, don’t you agree then that people should only do this job if they:
1) Have the necessary skills to do it well, and..
2) Have an active and intrinsic desire and passion for it?
I mean I wouldn’t even think of applying for a job I have zero interest in and even if I did get such a job I’d suck at it because I’d have no real passion for it. In the corporate world bad performance will at worst get you fired. In the real world, bad parenting can give rise to criminals, abusers and feral children roaming the streets.
Instead we get these flippant and nonchalant “Give it a try!” comments or random pressure for no reason. Uhh weren’t the said childed people just trying to convince me 5 minutes ago that parenting is the most important job in the world?!
Ironically the child-free tend to put more thought into the decision to have/not have children than most childed people!
Happy Buddhist – Amen to that! Given that a recent large scale study showed that 1 out of 5 young Americans suffers from a personality disorder, which they either inherited or developed as a result of environmental factors, I think that those wanting to become parents need to think more about their choices and less about ours. As my wise older brother always says, “tend your own garden before you worry about your neighbors weeds”.
And, how scary is that? Not 1 out of 5000, but 1 out of 5. YIKES!
Who came up with the idea that only difficult, draining, tiresome things that are a “sacrafice” are worth having and that all those people in miserable lives, unhappy marriages, and piles of children die with a beautific smile, knowing that it was “all worthwhile?” It sounds totally ridiculous. And the people advocating it the loudest are the (shocker!) people with miserable jobs, loveless marriages, tiresome children, money issues and constant hardships. Its like ugly people loudly insisting that they are extra beautiful on the inside. Very likely not, its just envy and a way to console themselves with the fact that other people have better, easier, more fun, and more fortunate lives.
Something I’ve noticed is that It seems like a lot of people enjoy bragging about the harships they can endure so much so that they are willing to create them. I think having kids when you really don’t have to is a perfect example of this. It’s as if choosing to just enjoy your life is unthinkable.
“It seems like a lot of people enjoy bragging about the hardships they can ednure so much that they are willing to create them”
I agree with this x 10000000000!!!
Yes, what purpose is it to create a thing which is totally unpredictable, potentially able to ruin your life in every way and in 99% of cases increase the burdon on our planet.
I find it peculiar that people who claim to care so much for the welfare of children will go out of their way to try to convert people who, after careful consideration, have decided, for whatever reason, that they do not want to parent a child.
I’ve observed that when reputable animal rescue groups place a dog, cat, puppy or kitten in a new home one thing they make certain of is that the new owner understand the requirements and responsibilities of caring for a pet and providing it with a good life. They ask in-depth questions about how the potential owner will handle various situations that may arise in pet ownership. In some cases they will even do a home inspection. Because they care deeply about the well being of the animal, they don’t try to talk people into adopting who are not interested because most of the rescue animals come from homes where people didn’t think before they bought or adopted a pet.
That is why parenting bingoes almost always ring false to me and seem to be more about the parent feeling threatened by the childfree choice or their own unhappiness. If you REALLY love being a mom or dad and you really love kids, people who don’t want them/don’t have them shouldn’t even register on your radar or impact your feelings in any way. I really love cats and dogs, but I couldn’t care less about people who don’t, nor do I try to convince them to become pet owners. How bizarre would that be? In fact, I’d rather that people who have not considered all the pros and cons of pet ownership or who have considered and taken a pass, not just “give it a go” because it usually turns out poorly. Yes, kittens and puppies are cute when they’re small like babies, but like babies they grow up and aren’t always well behaved. The tragic difference with babies is you can’t dump them back at the hospital if you decide that parenting isn’t quite the thing because you’ve realized that even though your best friend,sister, cousin or co-worker loves being a mom, it makes you want to chew your arm off.
It’s funny, but I’ve never heard anyone who was childfree by choice complain about his or her miserable life, yet some parents feel the need to help us fix what isn’t broken. I think it’s called projection–I’m unhappy and can’t come to terms with my feelings so I’m going to make believe that people who made a choice different than mine are living empty lives of quiet desperation so I can feel better. Talk about a waste of time and energy.
And honestly, are we meant to believe that random strangers posting on the internet really care whether our lives have meaning? We all didn’t just fall off of a turnip truck, I don’t think.
I’ve noticed that trolls posting on childfree sites follow a very predictable pattern.
Part 1. Your life will be better wth children. Have children! It is so worthwhile. I have children. You should have children. Your lives will be empty and meaningless without children.
(CF posters reassure the deluded parent that their lives are actually quite nice, thank you, and they really don’t want children)
Part 2. What mean people you are! Children are great! You are all nasty and selfish! The day will come when you want children and it will be too late! Serves you right! You are all too horrid to have children! I hope you don’t have children!
(CF posters chuckle to themselves. Another idiot shows themself up.)
I know so many happy and fulfilled parents, and none of them question my choice. Only the miserable ones do that. Strange, eh?
I’m fairly certain that if people are made to consider the choice very carefully, weigh all the pros and cons, talk to both child-free and childed people about their experiences and *then* choose to have a child they will be far happier parents than people who live their life on auto-pilot mode (go the university, get a job, get married, have children) and just jump into having kids because it is expected of them or ‘it’s just what you do’.
I find the whole idea of “mother love being the strongest love” really quite interesting because I was raised by a mother who quite frankly had checked out mentally by the time there were three of us to raise. She did the obligatory feedings and other domestic things we all needed done, but honestly, and in her defence, she grew up in an era where it was expected that women stayed home and took care of the house and the children while husbands went to work and I really think she was trapped in her role. I’m sure that if she were young now she would have been CF, and despite some lingering resentments towards her, I often do have a lot of compassion for the fact that she stuck with it until the last of us was 18 and did what she considered her duty long after she stopped enjoying it. The three of us were all vaguely aware from a young age that she wasn’t very good at it, and for whatever reason also knew it had little to do with us as people. So, we clung together, are still fiercely close some 40 years later, and have managed to grow up into competent and incredibly independent, resilient adults. The three of us are also CF, perhaps because the job of raising ourselves and each other was enough of a job for a lifetime.
All that to say that not everyone is meant to be a mum, and that “mother love” is absolutely not the strongest bond for everyone. Mine certainly never had it, looking back.
That’s funny. I know several married CF women in their late 40′s and 50′s and I have never heard them complain about regrets or seen then looking weepy and wistful at obligatory office baby showers. They look politely bored, as do I.
Lee,
I really like the comment you made 14/05 at Lee (23:00:26) about pet shelters placing pets and thoroughly investigating the potential owners first. I think that I will definitely use that when I get bingoed. How many obstetricians and GPs do you think ask these types of questions when someone gets pregnant? Probably very few, unless the person is so obviously not fit they legally have to (seriously mentally ill or very underage). Wonder how it would work if obstetricians and GPs made home visits, and required specific “healthy/secure” situations and frame of mind before people were allowed to reproduce.
Ah, what a different world we would live in. Probably far less populated too.
Soldatka – I like your point about it is the miserable parents in unhappy life situations questioning and belittling your choices. I would like to expand on that point by saying it is also those who feel like something is missing, or feel their mortality who often push the “you must have kids” point. For example, the usual issue of having a baby to keep a relationship together, or grandparents who push their children to reproduce to keep the family line going. It is their needs, and not the future kid’s need that they are considering.
Happy Buddhist – the old CF argument about people needing licenses or counselling (like pre-marriage counselling) before making their decision would probably be related to your point.
Hi CFOverseas;
I saw a recent statistic that there are currently 500,000 children in foster care in the U.S. That’s half a million kids whose parents would have probably not passed muster if they were required to fill out an application before reproducing. At least those kids be will shuttled from home to home without a consistent source of love and care until they become teenagers. Those are just the cases where a state has intervened and removed the child. I’m sure there are plenty who remain in dire straits with their parents and under the radar.
There was a program on teen pregnancy on the news recently. They profiled a hospital somewhere in the southwestern U.S. that had established a newborn drop-off location to help manage the epidemic of unwanted babies being born to teen mothers. It was meant to be anonymous so the girl could deliver and give up the baby, no questions asked. A small complication developed with the plan. Parents of children who were one, two, four, up to eleven years old started dropping off their kids that they no longer wanted or no longer had the resources to care for. I hate to think what would happen if a similar set-up were established in every hospital in every state.
Perhaps the parenting proselytizers should re-direct their energies toward the children that are already here and stop worrying about the goings on of the child-free by choice. But, I think it’s obvious that in many cases it’s not really child welfare that the P.P.’s are worried about.
“I’m sure there are plenty who remain in dire straits with their parents and under the radar. ” You can be certain of it. For all the public preaching about the necessity and importance of children some parents find the reality falls far short of the hype. It’s the children that suffer… it must be terrible to feel unwanted. Taking a gamble instead of having long considered thought seems to be accepted… as long as you re-produce and don’t admit to not wanting kids you’ll stay with the crowd. The fact that so many kids are given up for adoption or just abandoned seems to be a non-issue. How sad.
How can people just abandon a defenseless child…it boggles the mind! It would be better to not have a child at all if you know you do not have the means to give it a decent life. But that is unacceptable to the childed.
Good grief why don’t we ever see the childed come down strongly against such people like they do to the child-free? Oh I forgot, it’s not about the children at all…it’s only about one’s OWN bloodline and genes. “As long as they reproduce and are as miserable as I am, people can do whatever they want” — even abandon their children.
And they have the nerve to call us selfish.