Back from London, having had a great visit home seeing family and friends and having generally wonderful time.
While I was back in the UK it seemed that I saw more children than I do in Toronto. That’s probably a due in part to where we live… being childfree means we don’t have to live in the burbs, so we live downtown. In London we weren’t in the burbs by any stretch of the imagination, yet unruly kids (or at least loud ones) seemed to be everywhere.
On the plane going over, we had a screeching child. Not a small baby, a child who screeched when it didn’t get its way. As seems to be the case these days, the parent seemed powerless to shut the child up and so it proceeded to scream until presumably it got whatever it was it wanted. Fortunately, the child was a few rows back from us, and somehow we were able to tune it out. Thankful to be childfree prayer number 1.
The next and more unpleasant encounter was our the train from the airport – Gatwick in this case. You had to be there to believe it. No doubt our 6 hour flight had made us tired, but we had been able to grab a few hours sleep and weren’t jet-lagged yet. A family got on the train at one of the stops…they must have been going on a days outing. I have never in my life heard children yell so loudly. There were 4 kids (we counted) and the parents. The mother was soon to pop out another one. The kids were yelling so loudly that it actually hurt my eardrums. They were “talking.” I looked in shock at my husband, unable to believe that kids could be allowed to disturb the peace to that level.
I resisted the impulse to put my hands over my ears, but only just. The train wasn’t full, but there were few places we could move to, and anyway the noise could be heard through the entire carriage so it would have made little difference.The parents made no attempt to quieten the kids (who by the way ranged from between 5 and 10) though they did eventually quieten down. And the parents were equally loud. My husband and I just looked at each other. This was in the morning… not even 11 a.m. Luckily the train journey was only 30 minutes and we could escape, our ears still ringing.
Talk about badly behaved kids.
I noticed more examples of Badly Behaved Kids and wondered if it was my imagination. Perhaps because I am childfree, I notice more? Not so. Having a meal with a good friend of mine one evening (a guy, with two adult kids) I mentioned that sometimes it felt quite scary being on the train with some of the school kids. I felt sorry for senior people traveling on the public transport with these kids as co-passengers. They were rough, unruly their language was appalling. I didn’t remember it being quite so bad – I mean school kids are kids… after all – they were going to be boisterous and that’s to be expected.
I said as much to my friend.
“You’re not imagining it,” he said when I described the two incidences. “That’s nothing. They are much worse.” He gave me an example of something that had recently happened to him…” a school girl walked out in front of his bike when she shouldn’t have done (he cycles and it was his right of way) and when he said something, a stream of foul invective followed. The girl was about 13. Even he couldn’t quite believe what he was hearing and he’s not easily shocked.
Plus, he went on, the kids are often so badly behaved on the buses (swearing, spitting, screaming, playing their music as loud as possible – you name it, they do it) the drivers have to stop the bus and order them off. The other passengers can then get a bit of peace on their journey to and from wherever they are going. Without being threatened by feral juveniles.
I asked my friend how the kids got so bad… “The parents are just the same… they let them do exactly as they like and don’t say boo to their kids. And if you dare complain, you’ll get abuse from them too. This is the result.”
I just shook my head. Clearly all kids are not bad. But the number of nasty, antisocial badly behaved monsters are real, they are on the rise and they have parents. Where are they? Why should anyone be on the receiving end of verbal abuse from an eight or nine year old? Or a 13 year old?
That’s probably why a week doesn’t go by without news of some stabbing or violent act done by a minor – usually because someone had the temerity to tell them to stop something – or perhaps they looked at them in the wrong way. It’s not just England either, because it’s an every day occurrence in Canada and I’m sure in other countries too. If people aren’t turning a blind eye to it, they don’t seem to be doing much about it – apart from insisting on focusing on kids as being central to everything.
Child-freedom is great… even though we have to endure other people’s Badly Behaved Kids.
Instead of using their energies to criticize childfree people and insist they produce more kids, the childed might consider putting their collective thoughts into how to deal with the juve brats that now make life intolerable for some.
{ 21 comments… read them below or add one }
I’ve definitely noticed it as well. I was waiting for the LUAS this morning, when two children, aged about 8 and 10 came along, and started screaming, running around, bumping into people and using the emergency phone as a joke, yelling profanities into it. As well as being really annoying, it could have been dangerous. I’ve had people come into the restaurant where I work, and ignore their screaming kids while they throw food around and generally put everyone off their food. There are also the children at the library who yell loudly, including racial insults at me, and their parents just tell me to “piss off back home” (what, down the road?) and to stop criticising their culture when I ask them to at least control their offspring. I’ve been at church while people let their babies and children make a nuisance, then throw a hissy fit when the minister asks them to take their children outside.
And these are all “decent”, middle class people, too. They just assume that the rules don’t apply to them once they breed, and that is something they pass on to their children. And my friends who want children have the same problems. I think there will be a backlash with the future generations, because people are so sick of it.
I really think this is a result of society’s dictate that EVERYONE must have LOTS OF KIDS, especially when the time we needed to do that has long past. A lot of people who weren’t really meant to be parents emotionally or physically (thank you, fertility industry) have kids now. This is in addition to the fact that everyone is already working overtime at the office or looking for a job in this bad economy. It’s no wonder proper childcare is being neglected. Everyone has more on their plates than they can handle and society is unraveling under the collective stress. I guess it’s fitting since having lots of kids is what’s destroying our environment anyway. Once again, I’m very happy I sidestepped the mass brainwashing and decided to be child free. I’m not happy however, that these people are allowed, let alone encouraged and applauded, to destroy the world in every way.
I believe it has a lot to do with the culture of entitlement and wanting to be the child’s “friend” and be seen as the good guy, the fun guy. A lot of discipline goes out the window and instead of learning the boundaries of proper behaviour, the child learns to be out of control. These parents are doing their kids no favours. Once these kids get older and out into the real world, how will they deal with disappointments or when things don’t go their way first try? These kids are going to experience a lot of frustration before they learn to grown up and essentially re-parent themselves since their parents were too busy trying to be a friend to parent them in the first place.
And why didn’t you cover your ears, Britgirl? I certainly would have! Or pointedly put in earplugs!
Sorry, I guess I went off on a tangent with my post and didn’t really answer the main question at hand. I think parents are better practiced at tuning it out.
I think that the source of the bad behavior is the kind of overcorrecting that the Business of Parenting (books, television, magazines, child psychologists, Ritalin) have brought about in the past couple of decades. Parents are so neurotically attempting to avoid being hated by their children or blamed for them doing something awful that they overindulge, don’t teach consequences, and convince every child that he/she is a unique and lovely snowflake. When the child becomes a teen and realizes that he/she is rather ordinary, they’re disillusioned. And why shouldn’t they be? They have parents like Elisabeth and Jenna from the previous comment thread who, while beating their heads against the wall, remind them that they did it all for their ungrateful brats, just so that they could live.
Behavior on buses, trains, and in restaurants as in Irishgirl’s comment, though… I have to say that it’s informed by adults. My pet peeve is the library, where everyone seems to use their outside voice these days, even the wenches behind the counters. When children and teens see that public places aren’t respected by adults, they learn that they can behave the same way. No matter which route I’m taking on a bus (here in Ottawa, ON), most often the loudest conversations are taking place between a couple of guys in business casual who don’t understand how their voices carry. Their language sounds like they’re fourteen, though, sprinkled with profanity and entire minutes during which they just agree with what they other has said. Second most common will be a cackling single woman on a cell phone, picking at her mascara while she talks to one friend only to call another to repeat the same conversation. I guess I’m lucky that the teens on 95% of my buses are too busy texting or listening to headphones to make much noise.
I think we do notice more because we don’t live with it 24/7/365 like most parents do.
A lot of parents have trained themselves to tune it out, only paying attention if there is a real problem (although kids and teens disturbing the public peace should alert them to squash it immediately). Tuned-out parents also assume that their little darlings aren’t really bothering anybody with their ruckus. This is why they take offense when someone — parent or not — suggests or demands they take control of their kids in public.
The day that the anti spanking lobby got their way is the day that society started going downhill. Kids these days know that there are no consequences for bad behaviour, and because they’re kids, they just carry on doing whatever they want. Parents can’t hit them, nor can any other adult. Police can’t touch them. Society in general kisses their asses. Go ahead and be as bad as you want, there will always be some bleeding heart to bail you out, because you’re “just a chyld”! Bollocks.
I shudder to think what this generation are going to be like as adults. Spoiled, obnoxious, entitled parents raise spoiled, obnoxious, entitled kids – Gen Y’s starting to spawn, look out world.
I think that people who actively try to parent notice when their children are acting badly. I think those who parent on the buddy system notice and don’t care because a) they believe that kids will be kids and that’s how they are supposed to behave and b) their narcissism supports the idea that anything their child does is a good thing. What they fail to realize is they are doing their children no favors by not teaching manners because as kat pointed out, unruly, selfish, obnoxious children grown into the same type of adults.
I too fear the offspring of Gen Y.
Welcome back, Britgirl.
As a teacher of 19 years, I can tell you that absolutely things have changed in and out of the classroom. I think parents have totally dropped the ball in many cases, refusing to teach basic manners or more accurately neglecting to do so because they just aren’t home with them long enough to instill them and then suffer guilt for being away to the point where they want “quality, happy time” and so indulge their every whims.
I think we can also lay the blamer at the doorstep of two trends- the disappearance of authority in general, whether it comes from police, church, and just any adult in the vicinity. I know that when I was little, I would never have mouthed off to an adult neighbour giving out to me for fear that my parents would slap some sense into me for being so rude and defiant. The second trend I see is that we have become rather casual about everything- clothes, language, manners, it’s all sunk to the familiar level regardless of circumstance, and so children just have no idea how to adjust their behaviour when they are in public as opposed to in private. It doesn’t help that we now confine them to rec rooms to watch or play endless videos. When they go out to the movies, they still think they’re at home watching and chat endlessly. This is a recurring problem at school also during any kind of performance- you get this running commentary from them even when the performers are humans!
The last thing I’ve observed is that the world is generally louder than it used to be. Ambient noise is much more than ever, with street level voice ads, iPods, all the heightened sounds that fade into the background and force everyone to speak up in public. I’ve told my students often that they are too loud when speaking to one another, and they look at me like I’m an alien. They aren’t being malicious, but have completely lost the sense of vocal projection in confined spaces, etc… I do find myself wondering if they will suffer some degenerative hearing loss from being in such loud surroundings all the time. I often have to call for “radio silence” in the classroom just because they can’t manage at what I find acceptable levels of conversation.
I have to say, in their defense, the parents have completely bailed on them and a lot of them crave the structure and discipline. I certainly don’t have problems in general getting them to do what I want, but I follow through with every consequence I apply and do it consistently. It’s not rocket science, and the funny thing is, I have an excellent rapport with most of them, and I know they generally respect the fact that I don’t back off and come through every time I lay it out for them.
-AM
Hope you had a nice trip Britgirl. Myself consider UK as this years holiday-destination because it has so many interesting attractions and great sceneries.
Anne-Marie and Lee, I think you had quite many good points in your comments. Seriously, I am also concerned when I think of the next generation in charge of business. I sometimes wonder what kind of imaginary world they live in when I watch them cruise around free from any rules or boundaries. I am glad to not have one living in my house.
I just have to add something on the side. Its nothing more preventive than to watch the news these days. I think of the financial crisis. Who wants to put themself on the line just to bring something into the world which we already have too many of? If I was struck directly by the crisis I would be able to make a very very quick turn in life to get myself back on the feet. This has actually always been an important reason for my choice to be CF. When I pass parents with their kids on the street I say to my self: Thank God its not me! Can it be any more clear than that?
My theory on this: Evolution, having reached the point where natural selection is no longer natural or selective, is now devolving. (Is that a word? If not, it should be.)
We have come to a point where survival is so easy that we no longer need to be the “fittest” to survive, or to breed. Eventually the world will be run by cave people again, at which point the whole process will start again. These people will be considered the “link” going backwards.
Meanwhile, I just try to accept as many things as I can in a way that is least stressful to me. If a kidis loud or a driver cuts me off, I just shrug and think “well, that’s the way it is”. It keeps my blood pressure on much more even keel.
Incidentally, I also find in many cases that laughing at the behaviour of kids or other adults tends to result in them altering their behaviour for the better, because you’ve embarrassed them. I just laugh and say “you obviously think that is an appropriate way to behave” then keep laughing. It comes across as “haha you think it’s ok to behave like that, you are an idiot and everyone knows it”. They lose that feeling of entitlement or defensiveness because you haven’t actually attacked them, you’ve just pointed out that their behaviour is so childish as to be laughable, and you aren’t taking them seriously as members of society. This often works on groups of youths too.
You need to pick your targets carefully so you don’t get bashed though, but in general being laughed at is humiliating for people and they tend to pipe down, especially when they realise they can’t bother or offend you.
(I learnt this from dealing with my brother when he was around five; it still works on the general public even now. Every little kid wants to be told they’re a grown up, and in reality every grown up is a little kids at heart.)
My theory on this: Evolution, having reached the point where natural selection is no longer natural or selective, is now devolving. (Is that a word? If not, it should be.)
We have come to a point where survival is so easy that we no longer need to be the “fittest” to survive, or to breed. Eventually the world will be run by cave people again, at which point the whole process will start again. These people will be considered the “link” going backwards.
Meanwhile, I just try to accept as many things as I can in a way that is least stressful to me. If a kidis loud or a driver cuts me off, I just shrug and think “well, that’s the way it is”. It keeps my blood pressure on much more even keel.
Incidentally, I also find in many cases that laughing at the behaviour of kids or other adults tends to result in them altering their behaviour for the better, because you’ve embarrassed them. I just laugh and say “you obviously think that is an appropriate way to behave” then keep laughing. It comes across as “haha you think it’s ok to behave like that, you are an idiot and everyone knows it”. They lose that feeling of entitlement or defensiveness because you haven’t actually attacked them, you’ve just pointed out that their behaviour is so childish as to be laughable, and you aren’t taking them seriously as members of society. This often works on groups of youths too.
You need to pick your targets carefully so you don’t get bashed though, but in general being laughed at is humiliating for people and they tend to pipe down, especially when they realise they can’t bother or offend you.
(I learnt this from dealing with my brother when he was around five; it still works on the general public even now. Every little kid wants to be told they’re a grown up, and in reality every grown up is a little kid at heart.)
oops sorry, I tried to edit and ended up with a double post.
RMS: “Once these kids get older and out into the real world, how will they deal with disappointments or when things don’t go their way first try?”
My friend is a very good example of that. The answer: they lose all their friends and end up with depression, and nobody can help them because their sense of perspective is so screwed up.
I don’t know if the childfree can answer the original question, but I am definitely aware of children. Their voices are designed to be horrorific – that’s a survival thing, the screeching of the young is supposed to carry and alert adults. But I do completely agree that people have lost all sense of decorum. I have seen exhausted, cranky children brought into expensive, dimly lit romantic restaurants. On a Saturday. At 9pm. WTF??? Does this look like a McDonalds? No, there are no effing crayons here! GO HOME!!!
Thing is, if your kid is a monster at home, and you’re out in public, mortified, what do you do? A good slap upside the head would feel like such a relief, but then the brat is going to bawl, police might get called, and the same people that gave you disapproving looks before will now testify against you for child abuse. You are essentially completely impotent unless you what, institute beatings at home for all transgressions? I don’t know. When I was a child, even the idea of misbehaving in public never entered my mind. But now all the kids are doing it, and mimicking cartoon character where the coolest one is the “wise guy.” I hear dumb children screeching out obviously canned TV lines which everyone ignores, and so they yell louder and louder until someone makes a show of appreciating the “clever” joke. It’s “cool” to be the lous, obnoxious one. Have you seen commercials these days? All TV especially stupid child-geared TV shows obnoxious loud brats as smart, funny and popular and all adults are idiots.
@ serrin: My mom teaches at a community college. She’s also chosen embarrassment as her method of behavior correction. If someone’s phone rings during class, she starts dancing to the ringtone. :> Works really well! She’s also seen how so many of them just haven’t learned these things… and how getting consistent consequences really can make a difference.
My husband and I are constantly amazed at how frequently we encounter ill-behaved children with parents who either don’t care or are too worn down to do anything. Yesterday, I was at a special breast cancer detection center for a follow up visit on my yearly mammogram. This is a somber place where mostly women are being seen and hoping that it’s just a strange lump/spot/whatever and not cancer (I’m fine). While sitting in the waiting room my ears were assulted by the screaming 3year old brat of one of the employees. This went on for about 10 minutes, until thankfully I could escape to the back area for testing. While sitting in that waiting area in my special cotton gown waiting for the test results to be read, in comes another woman for testing – and she brings her daughter and 2 grandkids (3 &5). Now, I understand wanting a friend/relative there for moral support. It is scary and you don’t know what is going on with your body or what will happen, but seriously – who thought it was a good idea to bring young children? The 3 year old sat next to me pulling at my magazine for attention. Her mother said, “oh she does that for attention.” Um, yeah, I figured that out, what I can’t figure out is why you don’t do something about it? The kids were in and out of the changing room, crying, running…I don’t think I’m a horrible person, but there really are certain places children do not belong!
Andi, I’m glad everything is okay!
I can totally understand wanting an adult (let me stress “adult”) friend/family member along for moral support.
Going for a mammogram is stressful and worrying, and waiting for the test results can be terrifying. The last thing you need to see and hear is a bunch of near-feral brats screaming, yelling and generally acting like the clinic is their own personal playground. It’s extremely irritating, and only adds to the tension. (While Andi had good news, sadly not everyone will).
It’s yet another example of the nauseating child worship which is rampant in society – children are allowed/welcomed in places they clearly have no business being.
Thanks Anne-Marie and all!
I think there is a huge vacuum where authority used to be. Coupled with the mantra that “children are the centre of the universe and essential” it’s a recipe for trouble. I see it in how children address their parents, but most especially when children find they have no boundaries. For example, a teen was asked to stop smoking in a non-smoking area. Big mistake. The teen brings out a knife and stabs the person who asked them to put out the cigarette.
An elderly man asks some school kids to stop shoving. He gets beaten up for his trouble – quite seriously. An man goes to help someone in trouble… ends up dead… beaten up by a gang of teens… the oldest of whom is 14!
Someone, somewhere brought these “children” into the world and should be responsible for what they do, but it seems they’ve given up. When I think back to how my siblings and I grew up I really do give thanks for what my own parents did. If we did bad things we got punished… our parents set boundaries and we crossed them at our peril.
Chances are that today, any parent attempting to discipline their child would probably be raked over the coals and have to fight charges of child abuse – most of them brought by the child. Scary.
Andi – glad all is ok.
Why parents think that bringing children to a place where people are worried, stressed and quite likely both is beyond me. What’s worse they seem to be oblivious of the impact of the intrusion on others. My conclusion is that they don’t even consider that anyone might object to the boisterousness of their kids at all. After all, isn’t everyone supposed to love kids and take their noise in their stride?
It’s a sad indictment on our society that the well mannered children are the ones that stand out. Almost daily I see children behaving in ways that would have had my mother furious and embarrassed should I have behaved like that as a child.
I was in the supermarket a year or so ago and I saw a lady and her two children approaching me down the aisle. I stepped aside to let them pass and one of her children, a little girl said “thankyou”. I was so stunned that I didn’t have time to stammer “you’re welcome” before they were off and on their way. Thankfully I saw the lady and her children again outside and made a point of saying how wonderfully mannered her children were, she seemed pleased by the compliment. That I remember an occassion a year ago when a child simply behaved in the manner that I was brought up to worries me.
However, in the last week alone I’ve seen children in shops demanding goods without having the courtesy to say please or thankyou whilst their fat mother stood idly by, she stank too, after she left the shop the lady behind the counter had to spray air freshener. I’ve seen a pregnant woman hitting her five year old child around the head and calling her a “little bitch” because she was slow to decide which chocolate bar she wanted, the child was so used to this kind of assault that she didn’t flinch or cry, I even saw a trio of boys in their early teens throwing a hedgehog onto a busy dual carriageway and delighting as it was crushed by a car (I reported it to the RSPCA but they couldn’t have got there in time). When so many examples of terrible parenting and rotten kids are so plain to see, it’s no wonder that many children are growing up thoughtless, selfish, rude and just a plain nuisance. It seems that the parents don’t care enough to notice, they sure make it easier to be childfree though!