I asked “Bob” (name changed) if I could share his childfree story on the Blog. Happily he said yes and so I hope you like it as much as I did. I found it very moving. It is always quite humbling to know that this child-free blog has played a part, however small in someone’s life – whether it’s learning more about the childfree life, learning a new way to respond to the inevitable bingoes, or simply gaining strength and support from other childfree people and from the posts. And Bob’s note again reminded me that there are many childfree people having to make difficult life choices simply because they do not want to have children and often to try and satisfy someone who’s decided they do want children. It is far from easy.
I have little to add to Bob’s note except to confirm this that as childfree people we are not alone. While we may be hard to find off-line, the online world, through blogs and forums, has made us more visible and our voices that much more heard. Props to Bob for going online to find out what he could find on being child free. And thanks to him for having the courage to share his story. Feel free to add your thoughts and comments.
Bob’s note begins here —>
“Hello,
I just wanted to drop you a line about your blog. I recently found it and spent hours reading it. I really want to you thank you for it because I think it prevented me from making a huge mistake. Pardon me if this is long but I feel the need to share my story with you.
I am a 36 yr old American man. Since I was young, I’ve always known that I didn’t want kids. While I don’t hate kids, I have little patience for parents who let their kids run wild in public. When I first met my wife, I made it very clear that I never planned on having kids. We had multiple talks and she said that was fine with her.
We’ve since been married for almost 12 years and life has been great. We both have good jobs and very comfortable incomes. We go out often and have traveled all over Europe. Both of us love to travel and have plans to continue our adventures together. She is truly my best friend and I can see my self spending the rest of my life with her.
Unfortunately I think her clock is ticking. All of her friends either have kids or are currently pregnant. I noticed little comments from her that indicated she was starting to regret our agreement. We talked it over again and she said that she thinks she would like to have a child now but understands that I still don’t. She said that she loves me with all her heart and won’t let it ruin our marriage but she still thinks she wants a child.
The rough part was when her sister and her child (5yrs) came to visit for several weeks. I watched my wife shower this kid with toys and affection. She spent every minute she could with him. She was so happy with him that it broke my heart. I started thinking that I am a bastard for denying that to her. Then her sister and child went back home and my wife was devastated. Every time she saw one of his toys laying around or anything else that reminded her of him, she started crying.
I finally went all around the house and cleansed it of any toys, Spiderman plates, rubber duckies and anything else kids related. I even took all his photos and put them away.
I did a lot thinking about it and almost decided to tell her that we should have a child. The thing that stopped me was that my feelings about kids still had not changed. Sure the kid was fun to have around but that was because I knew he was going home eventually. As it got closed to the end of the visit, I was really looking forward to having my house and my regular routine back. While there were many “cute” things that he did, I found many to be annoying. I didn’t know what to do. I think our life is fun, full, and exciting. A kid would only ruin things in my mind.
So I decided to surf the net a little and that is when I found your site. It really helped me stay focused on my original decision. What if we had a child and I resented my wife for it? I can’t let guilt force me into making such a huge change in my life. Now the question is what to do with my wife. I hope we can work through this but I am concerned that she will resent me later in life.
*sigh*
Well anyway, thanks for what you do. It really helps to know I am not alone with these problems.”
Bob
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Me: Male 36. CF.
Your guilt is familiar. I would say there are only 2 ways out.
1) Go with the flow and become a parent.
2) Break up with the one you love.
I dont mean to sound shallow or sarcastic. I am in the middle of similar shit myself.
I have found tremendous support in the posts and comments of this blog. But your real life is out there and not on the computer screen.
To parent or not parent; thats the question..
Sorry you’re having to deal with that and thanks for sharing. In the end, to parent or not to parent is the question that can, to my mind, only be answered with a yes or no. People continually sell us on the fact that bringing a child into a relationship can only be good. I think this is a myth. There seems to be sparse support for situations where one of a couple doesn’t want to parent at all and that is sad. I know from your previous postings here that you’ve been clear about your stance. So your response here is telling me your gf is becoming insistent on her need to parent. I am just guessing though – and it might not be an intelligent guess at that
. I hope you have support off line but you know you have support here. Even though it’s just through a computer screen 
Bob, you’re among friends here, that’s for sure.
I do feel for your wife, because I know that’s a difficult position for her to be in. She can’t help that her feelings have changed, and I’m sure it hurt you to see her in that much pain. You said that she agreed with your childfree policy when you guys got married, but you didn’t quite say that she was also childfree. Britgirl’s right when she says that it’s easy to find other childfree people online today, but I can imagine that twelve years ago it would have been nearly impossible to find much evidence that there were other women out there with the same views.
Normally I’d roll my eyes at people who suggest marital/couples counseling because it’s such a reflex, but you and your wife might consider a short series of three or so sessions. (Better counseling before a problem becomes a reality than after, maybe?) At the very least, if you’re committed to an adult-only family and she continues to have doubts, the therapist can help her really get to the bottom of her change of heart–if she just wants a baby to nurture, if she’s feeling left behind because of her friends, if she’s afraid of being alone when she’s older, if she’s being pressured by your mother-in-law or others to have a baby and feels like she ought to.
You sound like a good husband. When you said “I think our life is fun, full, and exciting,” I could just hear the bingo that a lot of childed people would hand back to you as a reply–that a child can make your life even more fun, full, and exciting. For some people that’s true. But to create another person on the chance that it might do the opposite is too big a risk for a childfree person. I’m sorry that you are dealing with this in your life, but I hope that it works out well for you both.
This is so tough for you. This issue is very, very difficult for women, when their friends all embark on the “great life journey” of motherhood – and suddenly they panic that they might be getting left behind, that they might be missing something, that they’re no longer part of the crowd and that people pity them, or think they’re selfish or not maternal. Societal pressure is a bitch, and there’s no greater societal pressure than that attached to having children.
You’re right to stick to your guns. If you don’t want to be a parent, that is all the justification you need. That was the agreement, you’ve never hidden it from her, and if you haven’t changed your mind, you need to figure why your wife did. I’ve no doubt that the biological clock does exist, but there’s bound to be a whole lot more going on in the background.
Is she really willing to walk away at this late stage of the game, knowing her fertility is already in decline, to take the chance that she’ll meet someone else she likes enough to start a family with? Big, big risk for her. But if she stays with you, you’ll have to figure a way to get around the inevitable resentment, and work through the damage that this will have done to your relationship. Tricky indeed.
There are so many children out there crying out for love and understanding that they don’t get from their overworked, stressed or uncaring parents. So there are so many opportunities for her to be involved with children without havng to have her own. All upside, no downside, if you like – in much the same way as your young visitor. Not having your own can sometimes open up wonderful opportunities to change the lives of dozens of children, not just the one you would have had.
I second the idea of counselling, even though it sounds like you trust each other and have the communication lines open. An impartial third party may be a valuable sounding board for both of you. The only caveat I would put on that is that you need to find a truly impartial therapist – I’ve heard some horror stories of people who have gone for counselling on this issue and met very bad reactions from their counsellor. This is still a divisive issue, and there are still a lot of people out there who consider the baby to be the be-all and end-all. So please be careful, if you go this route.
I wish you the best of luck. You do sound like a caring husband, and it would be such a shame for this fabulous relationship to go down the drain. But there are no guarantees with children, and when you feel as you do, “no” is always the right answer.
@Kat ” This issue is very, very difficult for women, when their friends all embark on the “great life journey” of motherhood – and suddenly they panic that they might be getting left behind, that they might be missing something, that they’re no longer part of the crowd and that people pity them, or think they’re selfish or not maternal. Societal pressure is a bitch, and there’s no greater societal pressure than that attached to having children.”
I agree, the pressure can be a bitch. But what gets me is what this means. It means that, women are almost incapable of withstanding societal pressure when it comes to kids. Unable to stand on their own two feet unless society is behind them. It also means that a heck of a lot of kids are born simply because someone feels they might be missing something, or they are worried about being called selfish, or want to be “in” like everyone else. While I know that this is more often than not the case perhaps that’s why some of the women turn up on mommy blogs, bemoaning how miserable they are because parenting wasn’t what they thought it was.
Having a child because you’ve always wanted one is one thing. Having one out of panic or to keep approval… what are they going to tell those kids?
Bob,
I’m wondering how your wife’s friends and family have regarded her childfree status? Have they been respectful of your choice as a couple or does she perhaps get some well-intended (or not) questioning and or comments about choosing not to parent? While the cultural procreation messages are annoying, I think it is hard for women who don’t get some kind of support from other women, whether friends or family, around the childfree choice.
I have some friends who, thankfully, will support me in whatever I do but, I also have a couple who, once they reached the dreaded blessed state of pregnancy, acted as if I had suddenly become a pod person. I never in a million years expected judgment from them, and I have pretty thick skin, but it is hurtful to feel like you haven’t changed, but someone’s attitude towards you has changed and you are no longer being appreciated and respected. Whenever I would spend time with one of these women, I would feel awful for a few hours after and have to run it off. I didn’t feel awful or sad because I wanted to be a mom, I felt sad because not wanting to be a mom had become the thing that suddenly defined me (in a negative light) with these two women.
While it sounds like your wife gets enjoyment from being around young children, speaking from experience, it is possible to enjoy kids without wanting them–AT ALL. If she has always been firm in her childfree choice until now, maybe something else is at play. If your wife feels like she is starting to get treated like the odd woman out, perhaps she would benefit from spending more time with other groups of people doing an activity that has nothing to do with mom’s, being a mom, or having kids. She may discover that she is sad about a lack of connection, not a lack of child.
“Not having your own can sometimes open up wonderful opportunities to change the lives of dozens of children, not just the one you would have had”.
Fantastic, insightful comment Kat
Hi There Bob,
I’m a bit new to this blogging thing but this topic is of quite interest to me too. I’m 27 M from the UK and whilst still single go through the same kind of problem when finding dates etc.
I want to be childfree as well, mainly for philosophical reasons but even when dating it’s tough having the “how many kids do you want?” question thrown at me-something which has lead to many failed relationships.
The only thing I would say is don’t be too hard on yourself because you did let your wife know early on in the game. Women I’ve been out with who don’t want kids always seem to leave some sort of door open-I’m guessing to leave room for the clock to keep ticking.
I’m a scientist-working mainly in the genetics field. Whether you want to take my word or not in terms of human nature we are pretty wired to want to reproduce and some women react very chemically to children in terms of touch smell and so on-hence you wife’s elated sense of pleasure with your relatives kids. It’s important to note that this sense of elation can be transient, superficial and intermittent and may not be reflective of a true desire to want children-although like the posts suggest above some detailed therapy would be advisable to discover this for yourself in detail. Its important to separate the “clock ticking” from the conscious desire to want to bring someone into this world. If its temporary desire you may end up with children you don’t want.
I don’t mean to sound like a libertarian white coat lab person but this planet is facing some major challenges. You’re lucky to have found your wife-maybe together focusing on other peoples lives may give you that spiritual nourishment you (and your wife) crave. Please realise you are not alone in this-as we become more enlightened many more will raise these same questions. All the best!
I also do feel for you Bob as well its hard to feel like you are denying her something really important to her. You do both definately need to get the bottom of why she is feeling this. If her friends have children she may be feeling left out.
It sounds simplistic but I know what its like to lose touch with people when they have children and suddenly they have no time for you but have time to visit other friends with children or playgroups. Depending on how close she was or how she looked at her friendships this can be very upsetting and the desire to fit back in can be really powerful. Its important that she takes an objective look at her desires first…
good luck..
I never heard any biiological clock myself. So I concluded I don’t have one and it’s a myth, much like the maternal instinct.
You know, the fear of the biological clock is the reason I first searched for this blog. It’s such a relief to know it doesn’t automatically exist for everyone!!
I have to chime in here, that I also seem to be sans clock. If anything, the older I get the less compelled I feel to re-route myself down parent lane. I’m not a scientist, but as a woman, and speaking as an upright mammal capable of reproduction, I may have been born with the capacity, but the minute I hit the ground that innate capacity began to be influenced by a million different external factors which, in combination with my gray cells, wrote-over any evolutionary programming I was born with. For which I say, Thank you!
Same here. No clock ticking whatsoever. The only clock I have is asking: Do I have enough time in my life to do everything I would like to do? (Having kids would definitely halt all my projects to a halt for 18 years, and I don’t have 18 years to waste on a brat.)
I must be without a clock as well… It seems the older I get the more assured I am in my choice of not having kids. I see all my friends having kids and it just reinforces my thinking.
For example: I visited my sister in law and my 7 month old neice the other day. Seasame Street on the TV, diapers that missed the can (she said she was in a hurry to get the baby to the doctors this morning because of the second day of the runs), a husband with a puke soaked shoulder, little annoying toys everywhere, and of course a slobbery crying niece are just some of the things I encountered the first 5 minutes of being at their house. My husband and I were so happy to return home to our happy dogs and cats.
This is only one example. I have never left a friend or relatives house who has kids and even slightly wanted kids more than when I first walked through the door. In fact, If ever I would get the urge to reproduce (which has never happened yet) all I would have to do is pay a parent a visit.
Yes I have never felt this mysterious tick tick it must be pretty strange….. at least these blogs confirm I am clearly not the only one.
But as i mentioned before that desire to fit in with everyone can be pretty powerful and thats what drives most people.
Its maybe not a tick tick just nag nag…from everyone else around you who has children.
I am sure that ticking exists for some people – I’ve felt it once in my life, strangely, in my early twenties. As I was a student, not in a steady relationship, and skint, it wasn’t a good urge to follow and I just painted and painted until it went away a couple of months later.
Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if my feelings had got the better of me, instead of being able to rationalise that having a child was a bad idea at that point in time. Because it WAS a temporary state, and wore off quickly, never to return.
Even if the ticking is genuine, I think it’s a good idea to wait and check if it is a phase or something deeper. We’re mammals, but rational mammals, and we don’t have to follow every urge.
Bob, I feel for you in your situation. I hope you and your wife can find a way to work this out.
I know a lot of girls in their early 20′s who have kids. I am in my early 20′s and always see people I went to school with their kid(s). Its more common to see that than to run into someone you grew up with and them NOT have kids.
Even my little sister is feeling the need to reproduce soon because a lot of her friends already have kids. When everyone around you is doing something as “big” as having kids you want to prove yourself too. Its like a domino effect. “If so-and-so can have a kid then so can I!” I have noticed most of these girls have NOTHING else going for them. No other way to get praise and attention. They see other girls being showered with attention and praise for doing something so “big” and “important” that they feel somewhat inferior.
Bob, I know how you feel about your wife’s reaction. Even though my husband has said he doesn’t want children, he’s at least open to it–I’m not. By being “open to it,” I mean that if I were to tell him I’d changed my mind and I wanted children, he’d be fine with it.
Had he not already had a vasectomy, that is. The day after he had it done, I cried. Because I know he would be an exceptional father, and he really has a lot of good love he could give a kid. I, like you, felt like my choice could potentially deny him something he wanted if he discovered later that he is no longer ambivalent but really, truly wants a child.
But as sad as I was about this possibility, I would have had to leave him if he insisted on having children. And I’ve never loved anyone the way I love him. I like to think we’re soul mates. But, even so, I cannot have a child for him. Having a child isn’t like doing the dishes or fixing someone’s car. It’s not a favor – it’s a complete life overhaul. Like you, I really like my life, and I’m unwilling to forfeit it (as it is) for someone else’s happiness when, if they must experience that change, they can physically experience it with someone else.
Kristen, thanks for your message – I’m in the same situation (sans vasectomy) and it’s exactly what I needed to read right now as I’m getting child pressure from my husband. All these replies have been really good, too.
Trowa – I would send a personal message if I could access you that way…I just want to let you know, in case you’re interested, that I wrote a very, very short book called “How to (not) Have Children” that addresses many of the feelings and pressures those who don’t want children feel, but without being scientific and analytical about it. I just received an email from a woman who said it was useful to her as she tries to decide what she wants to do…it may or may not be helpful to you, too. (Clicking on my name will link you to it.) – Kristen
Speaking from a slightly different perspective as a woman who has been trying to have children for four years now, without success – this has given me plenty of time to ruminate as to why I want children. Because, let’s face it, most people who intend on having children, do so in a relatively short time and don’t have the months and months to ponder why exactly they want to change their lives forever. So, while it has been a difficult road, I have been able to really spend the time necessary to realize why I want to have children and to evaluate if that reason is a good one.
But, I think the same question applies here – has your wife given a reason as to why she is now beginning to rethink her decision? Why this sudden urge to have children? I suspect that it could be that everyone else around her is taking that plunge and she feels left behind (and trust me, is that a powerful feeling). A therapist may really help her to tease out her reasons for this in a non-confrontational manner.
Above all, though, you should stick with your original decision. You should not agree to have children unless you want them. It’s that simple. Best of luck.
I agree that people change and sometimes that’s just the way it is and you have to deal with it. Maybe I’m just coming from my own attitude, but I wonder at someone who bursts into tears at the sight of a rubber ducky. It seems pretty extreme for someone who had, up until recently seemed to be okay with the choice not to have children.
I would really want to know how long this has been going on and whether she is reacting to the “Kodak moments” of having a child for a short period of time, the feeling of wanting to have an important thing in common with her friends or a truly deep seated desire to raise a child – including the exhaustion, crappy diapers, tantrums and the risk of having a child with “special needs”.
… and let’s not forget that it’s not supposed to matter if a woman wants a baby. The need – or want to have a baby is largely supposed to override everything else. Logic, along with a lot else doesn’t feature, and “I just want one” is generally supposed to be acceptable and enough for all – and women aren’t required to give reasons. When a woman announces she’s having a baby or that she wants, 3 or 5 babies, no-one ever asks why.
Which is why I would agree with Og17 that therapy isn’t likely to be a lot of help. I’m not even sure the reasons even matter. Society deems it’s childfree women – and men – who must account for their non-willingness to parent., not wanna-be parents.
I don’t really see how going to therapy to understand why this woman wants a child will help matters. Lets say after 2 years analyzing everything from her childhood to tea leaves you figure out that she wants children for Reason No. 642. It’s a perfectly common reason, one that can be debunked logically in a minute. What do you think it will mean? She’ll still want a kid for reason no. 642, you’ll still not want one and think her reason is stupid. In the process you’ll spend two miserable, expensive years in therapy tp learn why you are an a-hole and a bad husband who won’t “compromise.”
As a word of caution and advice – good people can do really crap things when they are desperate, hormonal and in the middle of a middle age crisis (which is exactly what this is for a late-30′s woman.) Even if you know and she knows that the “accident” was no accident, if you then divorce her or act resentful and not thrilled with her “accident” you will be a complete pariah, no one will take your side. “He tried to pressure her into an abortion, he wouldn’t even touch her after, he left her pregnant/with a baby/a 6-year-old, he told her he doesn’t want anything to do with her, he is the absolute worst father/man/human being in the world.” No one will care that you said you didn’t want the stupid brat from the beginning. If you don’t do a 180 and become one of those idiots with a baby bjorn, you’re toast. And this includes your family and child support courts.
Speaking about being resentful, I can relate. I mentioned my situation in another post, but there is a bit more to my story. A little over a year ago, I was cruising along and life was great: Married to a lady I loved dearly, job was going well enough and I was living the life I generally wanted. No real complaints – life was definitely good. Then a few weeks before my 37th birthday, BAM! My wife was a few weeks late and I started to get nervous. We went to the store to get a preg detector and I was in denial the whole time. I made comments like “well, we just got back from a trip and maybe it’s the travel that’s thrown your schedule off.” She decided to test the next day and I had to work late. When I got home it was 2 a.m. and she was already in bed. Once I got under the covers, she woke up and I asked if she tried the kit. She said she did and the test was positive. Preggers. Sheer, unadulterated panic set in at that moment. A literal cold chill ran down my spine. The panic didn’t stop, even though I tried to hide it, until a few weeks later we found out at the OB/GYN she had miscarried. Standing there in the radiology department holding my wife’s hand while the doctors looked for a heartbeat was possibly the most miserable moment of my life. Suddenly, without warning, I was off the hook. Saved by the bell. No kid, no worries. Yet, I felt like a complete heel and a total tool. I had been so worried about my precious life crumbling down, I didn’t see how delicate the whole process was. It was a foregone conclusion in my mind that I’d have to be a father and I’d have 20 some-odd years of misery to look forward to and that kept me from seeing the good possibilities and accepting where my life was going. I had become cold and resentful to my wife. I look back now and I’m so ashamed of my attitude and behavior, even though my fears and anxiety had merit. My wife recovered and we have been trying to have a child ever since with no success. No way of knowing absolutely for sure, but now the door seems to be closed for another pregnancy. The doctors don’t give us much reason to hope, that’s for sure. There are other options for kids, but we’re not ready to focus on those just yet.
I am saying all this because Bob may end up in a similar situation if he’s not careful. Even though we had unprotected sex, I assumed, incorrectly, she was too old and would likely not get pregnant. When I found out she was, I immediately felt like someone put a rope around my neck and then kicked the chair out from underneath my feet. I felt trapped. I couldn’t get out of this situation at all. When I was chatting with some friends online and told them the news and how I really, really didn’t want to be a father, they all told me that I needed to get a grip, man-up and things would be fine. One friend said, “What did you expect? You had sex without a condom, you dolt!” As og217 correctly said, nobody took my side. And they will not if a similar thing happens to Bob. Despite how he feels about the situation, Bob will have to be a father if his wife gets pregnant and that’s all there is to it. In the end, we had no child, which I now regret, but that’s my case. Plenty of pregnancies go full term and a baby is born to a mom who wants the kid and a dad who doesn’t (and is absolutely going ape-crap inside because of it). Bob, needs to be very careful at this juncture. If he really, really, really doesn’t want to be a father he’d best nip this situation in the bud, stat, because pregnancy can happen despite the intentions and actions of both sides (and I have to say fellows, you best make sure you have countermeasures to any potential ‘oopsing’). I have no idea how committed he is to the CF option, but he sounds a lot like I used to be and seems very serious about not ever wanting kids. I thought I was as hardcore anti-kid as a person could be. In the days leading up to the miscarriage, I was climbing the walls looking for an escape route and only got more frustrated and panicked when I realized there wasn’t one. One sucker-punch followed the next and afterwards, I had done a reversal on my anti-kid stance, although I still had a ton of reservations. It’s okay to change one’s mind about this issue, even if the thought causes anxiety. I still get nervous thinking we might actually have a kid after all. For me, the reward is now worth the risk, but just barely.
I have a weird mix of feelings concerning parenting, almost bordering on schizophrenia. There is a still a strong part of me that doesn’t want a kid for all the logical reasons people here give. I totally get the child-free arguments and generally agree with the opposition to parenthood. However, I am at a point now where I would give anything, figuratively speaking, to get my wife pregnant. It’s the one gift I cannot buy and the one that would give her what her heart desires. Unlike Bob’s wife, my wife’s never done the hormonal clock-ticking thing on me. She’s wanted a kid since I met her. I told her when we dated I didn’t want children, but if a kid happened, I’d get on board and be the best father I could be (even though I didn’t when the moment arrived). I have no real advice for Bob. It’s a tricky situation, to be sure and not something a person should do just to make someone else happy. Caving in on this is probably the most disastrous thing a person could do. In my case, I think I want a child now more than my wife. She has kind of accepted things probably won’t happen for us. I am now the one who struggles.
I guess I would hope that Bob never hits the wall I am now hitting. I coulda-shoulda-woulda myself every day on this and wonder how things would be different had the pregnancy gone full-term. There’s no point in wondering because it never happened, but i still wonder. It’s hard to live with regrets, especially when they also affect your spouse. Regret is a two-way street, though, so I guess it’s better to be safe than sorry.
You were never childfree to begin with so your story, while entertaining, does not help Bob very much. You were just momentarily scared at the changes to come, but you are still baby-crazy. Bob is not.
I kind of agree with this. I think if anything, your story is a great example of why it’s important for truly CF people to make sure there can’t be an “oops.” I’m sorry for what you went through. My mother suffered more than one miscarriage, and I know that it’s hard on a person. But it sounds to me like your hormones got the better of you in this instance. I also think it sounds like your sudden want for a child may have sprung from the guilt you felt for the way you say you treated your wife.
One last thing: “Plenty of pregnancies go full term and a baby is born to a mom who wants the kid and a dad who doesn’t.” Let’s not forget that some women don’t want the kid. Not every woman out there could bring themselves to have an abortion, and I’ve heard of plenty of women who feel like their lives are ruined or they have no attachment to their kid because they folded under pressure from their HUSBANDS who changed their minds.
Bob, FWIW, I think counseling is a good idea. Then, as much as it hurts, if you need to part ways, you can. I hope for the best for you.
@non-repentant – I agree with Trowa – I don’t really thnk you were childfree at all. I think you were siimply undecided and then scared at the implications having children would bring, then regretful you missed an opportunity.
To use your phrase – getting the childfree argument is one thing, but it isn’t the same as being childfree. You are either chlldfree or you are not. I don’t think Bob’s situation is the same at all. Bob has known since he was young that he didn’t want to be a parent. You want to have babies – it’s totally different. The wall I hope Bob would not hit (but fear he will) is that his marriage dissolves because his wife has changed her mind and now, for whatever reason, wants a child. If he gives in, he will have done for the wrong reasons – a recipe for resentment and a lot worse. If he doesn’t he will be seen as “the bad guy” – a recipe for resentment.
I really don’t believe that people suddenly get a strong urge to have children if they honestly never wanted them. When there’s a 180 turn-about, I believe that there is almost always an external factor/pressure/fear involved. We humans don’t like to sit with discomfort for long and may choose a life-long solution to alleviate short-term angst. And, the truth is most people are very, very uncomfortable going against the grain of society. It takes a lot of inner strength and maturity to be who you are and not give a shit about what anyone else thinks about how you live your life. As my husband always says, the minute you start caring what the random masses think about you, that’s when you know you are really screwed.
Rather than using birth control (or not) after the fact to ensure that you get what you desire out of life–if you are not both on the same page regarding starting a family–don’t partner.
Committing to someone with the idea that you are going to change something about them that is unpalatable (whatever that may be) is a strategy doomed to failure. As is saying you want children when you really don’t because what you really only want is the relationship. That relationship will change in any case with the addition of a child or three. If you aren’t behind the the task of parenting 100%, it will show in a million different ways, not only to your partner, but more importantly to your children. No one gets to choose their parents, but every child wants to be wanted for the right reasons–not to keep a relationship, not as an ego extension, not to fit in with the neighbors, not to have a caretaker in old age, not to satisfy would-be grandparents, not to satisfy the church, and not because you don’t know what else to do with your life. Once a helpless, dependent human being is involved, it’s not all about you. In fact, it’s no longer about you ever again. The time to “man up” is before you make the decision to bring a new human being into the world, not after.
A relevant factoid for consideration–there are currently 13 million single parents in the U.S. Not surprisingly, 85% of those single parents are women. Only 1% are single due to death of a spouse. Makes you think doesn’t it?
Final comment, as an amazingly in-depth, not to mention heartbreaking, exploration of what can happen when a couple has a child for all the wrong reasons, I highly recommend the “Oliver” episodes of the HBO series, “In Treatment”. It’s available on-demand. The writing is just brilliant and I thought very reality based. The Mia episodes are also relevant to women on the fence about parenting.
@Lee “…but every child wants to be wanted for the right reasons–not to keep a relationship, not as an ego extension, not to fit in with the neighbors, not to have a caretaker in old age, not to satisfy would-be grandparents, not to satisfy the church, and not because you don’t know what else to do with your life. Once a helpless, dependent human being is involved, it’s not all about you. In fact, it’s no longer about you ever again.”
I could not agree more.
Hi Bob, a couple of years ago my cousin and his wife split up after being married for 10 years. They had always maintained that they didn’t want kids to the extent that at their engagement party, my cousin made an announcement “There will be no children”. It turned out that the reason for their split was because his wife had decided that she wanted a child after all. After being apart for a while, they started marriage counselling and then announced they were back together. After a while they announced they were having a baby and their baby is now a few months old. I still to this day don’t know the ins and outs of how they came to their decision, but from what I hear they are very happy being parents. I don’t know if this helps Bob, but I’m only telling you this from the point of view that my cousin and his wife took a gamble and luckily for them, the gamble turned out to be the right one. You and your wife might decide to take a gamble on having a child but it might not have a happy ending. My cousin and his wife have a very strong support networkk of family and friends who all live nearby, which I believe plays a big part in their happiness as parents. Anyway, I hope this gives some food for thought.
I want to apologize for that long post I put up yesterday as I see now it’s really not appropriate to this topic, and probably not to this blog in general. I am working through some difficult issues in my life right now and I’m having something of an identity crisis. I guess I felt this blog was the place for a catharsis. It was a poor decision on my part, I think. This is a great blog with good points made by all. Sorry for omitting women as often getting stuck with kids they don’t want . It wasn’t intentional. I know this happens, too. I have no idea where I fall on this issue anymore. A year ago, I would have sworn I was one of you, but it has been made clear I’m not. So… I guess I’m not. No worries. It’s good to know where you stand. Thanks for at least taking the time to read my long, rambling post.
I feel for Bob. I have no real advice for him but I do wish him well and hope he and his wife can work things out. It would be a shame if he lost something and somebody so good for him.
@non-repentant: I really do wish you well. If anything, perhaps your posting here has helped clarify something even if not everything. At least you know you aren’t childfree – that in itself is a certain level of clarity. And while your story may not be helpful to Bob, it could very well be helpful to others who may be reading at any other point in time. You simply never know.
All the best – hope you and your wife both achieve peace whatever the outcome.
Repentant, you had an interesting story, but it seems to encourage men to “go ahead, give in and have a baby, you’ll change your mind and everything will be alright” when there are no guarantees that everthing will work out. This isn’t about buying a condo, it’s a child. I think you should rely on your instincts, as they have helped humans evolve this far.
I wish you luck with your issues
It does not matter if you claim to never want children or if you visit the surgeon to make things even more certain.
Its all about how you feel inside when you sit down by yourself and try to figure out if you should or should not have kids.
I am quite convinced that many here are not compensating for a lost dream, but instead are here because they know deep inside that children is not for them. Ergo; ask to be respected as CHILDFREE (and therefore also distance themselves from the stigma CHILDLESS). It makes sense.
I am not sure which cathegory Bob belongs to, but its possible to get the impression that he is not truly CF?!?
Everybody has to be honest to themselves and deserve respect for a well thought over decision.
Lurker, I think you make a very good point about how critical it is to sit down with yourself and really figure out what you want in your heart of hearts–without all the sales pitches, guilt trips or other types of manipulation that come from various sources. At the end of the day, no one lives your life but you.
I was reading an article recently by an animal behvaiorist who used animal training techniques to teach people to stop doing things she found annoying. One technique she found particularly useful with people who ask rude, inappropriate, invasive questions, (why don’t you have kids?, for instance) is to stand straight and tall, stare them in the eye and say nothing at all. After about ten seconds they start to squirm and shuffle away or change the subject. I found this very amusing and can’t wait to try it!
“…stand straight and tall, stare them in the eye and say nothing at all. After about ten seconds they start to squirm and shuffle away or change the subject. I found this very amusing and can’t wait to try it!
Copy that!
@ Lurker… curious… what gives you the impress Bob might not really be Childfree?
Your case is a difficult one indeed. If you didn’t care about your wife THAT much, it would be easier just to put an end to the relationship and let her go find someone else to procreate.
However, if you really love her…Maybe you guys could work out a ‘second deal’ : you agree to have the child , provide for it financially etc… but make it very clear that there will be certain moments, days etc… when you’ll just need to escape the house, go away to somewhere peaceful and childfree ( And that those moments will probably be when she is breast-feeding, when the baby is crying, when the diaper needs to be changed , when it is having a tantrum…lol)
Just be honest and continue being yourself. If she wants the baby THAT much, but loves you , she should agree to it. This way both of you would make a certain amount of ‘sacrifice’ in order to make the other person happier…
In any case, that’s what I would do if I were in your position.
Fortunately, my husband is perfectly happy with my decision of never having children. I was born childfree and will die in the same way.
Looking at the bright side: At least, in your case, it is not YOU who will have to become pregnant! Ughhhggh…
Good luck and all the best.
If Bob’s wife signs up for having a detached/hand’s off father for her child that would in my mind mean she doesn’t care about the child that much–only about getting her needs met. Bob would essentially be a sperm donor. I sure would not want to be a kid living under the same roof with a mother or father who didn’t really want me. If you read through the archives here, there are some absolutely heart wrenching stories that have been shared by people who grew up in a family where they were only wanted by one parent.
I’m just speaking for myself, but living in a house with a child and not expecting to be affected by it, even filtering out the more nasty responsibilities is rather unrealistic. I see that as a recipe for a major resentment pressure cooker. If a woman coerces a man to have a child when he doesn’t want one, and as a result the marriage falls apart, she’ll end up losing her husband anyway and then will have the added bonus of being a single mom and dealing with all that entails.
Pamelli – I think that’s a recipe for disaster. I think no father at all is better than a detached father. I think if she signed up for it at all she’d renege very quickly. Apart from damage to the child she herself will need genuine support more than ever. And by that I mean he has to be 100% present.
“I think no father at all is better than a detached father”
A psychologist friend of mine who works with children says that children who are abused end up less traumatised throughout their life than children who are neglected. Neglecting a child is the WORST thing you can do to it.
This seems to support your comment above!
It is interesting that people sometimes say “well why don’t you have the kid and he can just look after it” as if it’s that simple. I’m just not the sort of person who could bring a child into the world if I don’t fully intend on taking an active role in his or her life. Saying “daddy will look after it” or vice versa isn’t the real issue and doesn’t address things like the financial restrictions, the noise, the smells, the additional support your spouse will need, the inevitable guilt any morally sound person will feel about taking an intentional back-seat in the child’s life…it just isn’t a viable solution.
Wow. No. That’s a HORRIBLE idea. There are already more than enough parents having kids for crappy reasons, and if you look around you, you’ll see the fallout from that. I was a “surprise” (for both of my parents; there was no oopsing) born two years before Roe vs. Wade in an area of the country that wasn’t exactly liberal with regards to abortion. It’s a crappy way to grow up. My parents were both too young. My mom sucked it up and acted like a grown up. 38 years later my father still hasn’t figured out how to do that. I’m pretty well convinced that neither of my parents would have ended up having kids at all if it had been a real option, since I’m an only child. While my mother did her best, I always knew on some level that she didn’t really want to be in the situation. She had enough grace and self control not to ever TELL me that, but I still knew. It doesn’t do good things for a child to know that they aren’t wanted. What you’re suggesting would entail a breathtaking level of irresponsibility and selfishness on the part of both Bob and his wife.
Yeah, that has a snowball’s chance in hell, I’m afraid. When people want something, they will promise you the world to get it. Unless the exchange takes place simultaneously – I give you money and you give me candy – people tend to try and change the bargain. I wanted a dog when I was 13. I swore I would walk it, wash it, feed it. The first Saturday it rained after I got the dog, guess who ended up walking the dog? And guess who ended up doing everything else for it for the next 12 years?
You can make an arrangement that the wife deals with all the nuisances of having a kid but she won’t follow through, resent you, and it isn’t like you can then call the whole thing off, is it?
Oh, your child is screeching honey, I’m watching TV, make it shut up.
Oh, sorry Billy, I won’t be attending your dumbass baseball game, since I didn’t want you in the first place, ask your mother.
Oh, honey, i want to go on vacation, can you find some place to drop off your brat for a week?
Darling, it’s not my fault you’re too tired for sex, I didn’t make you have a child. How about head?
I’m having a party, see if you can clear up all the kid clutter and whip up some nachos, will ya?
Does any of the above really seem feasible? He’ll just be the awful horrible husband, no one will take his side, and everyone will demand that he do “his fair share.”
The only thing I can think of is that they divorce. She gets pregnant by a sperm donor, and they live separately and date. Thats the only way he can honestly not be a father and she can be a mother, and tehy can still try to be together.
Very bad idea IMO. Children don’t ask to be born, I think bringing a child into this world and deliberately stating beforehand that you won’t care for it like a parent should is terribly wrong.
Once the kid is there, you have to give him/her the best you can for his/her wellbeing.
There can be no compromises, no half-sacrifices.
That’s exactly why I’m not having any
I think Bob should go ahead and have a vasectomy. This way, just in case she’s that type of woman, she wouldn’t be able to “oops” him. But more importantly, she’ll know his decision is final, and if she really can’t live without being a mother, it will resolve the issue of “do we stay together without kids or split up so she can have them”" Maybe she’s really okay with forgoing motherhood, even if it’s not her first choice, but knowing that the door is permanently closed with him will help her be clear on the issue. She won’t waste the next several years hoping she can change his mind.
Even if they can’t stay married, they might still be able to stay close friends. Not everyone who divorces ends up hating each other.
Good luck to them!
Britgirl:
If I try to argument, I remind you that Bob said: “I did a lot thinking about it and almost decided to tell her that we should have a child”.
Bob sounds like an intelligent person. I doubt he would have considered to do something like that unless he almost came to the conclusion that a child could be possible to cope with.
Maybe he is on the fence or maybe he knows for sure that a child would ruin his life because he is truly CF. Maybe he needs someone to understand why he might decide to leave his partner?
I think only Bob`s actions will show where he stands. Every alternative is valid as long you go for it 100%.
Personally I had a vasectomy 4-5 years ago. Its quite simple..I could want a child as much I want and still not be able to produce one. But I would not be truly CF if I felt sad for such situation and honestly I would have done what I could to change it if I really wanted to reproduce.
Again. Its nothing wrong about changing your decision about the choices you have made in life. But I think its important to be honest to your self and also to respect the choice of others.
That was all from Dr. Phil. Thanks.
http://www.lifescript.com/Search.aspx?engine=Lucene&q=Love%20101
By Venus Nicolino, Ph.D., Lifescript Relationship Expert Published July 09, 2009
Dear Dr. V, A month ago I found text messages on my husband’s cell phone pointing to an affair, and he confessed. The affair started about six weeks after I had our first baby – a baby that we’d been trying for 10 years to have.
We wanted a family for so long that I find it hard to believe he was willing to throw all that away. I think about the affair daily. I used to get excited to see him. Now I wish he weren’t in sight at all so I don’t have the constant reminder. How can I overcome this? – J Gorm
Dear J, My heart goes out to you for the awful situation you’re in. Pregnancy and childbirth are joyous, but they can push you to your physical, mental and spiritual limits.
How tragic to have to deal with the trauma of an affair on top of everything else.
That said, I do believe you must deal with it as soon as possible, not only for yourself but also for your baby. Though that tiny person may not be walking or talking yet, an infant is keenly aware of their environment.
I’m sure you don’t want your child beginning his or her life in an unhealthy dysfunctional atmosphere. You shouldn’t exist in one either.
You have a difficult decision: You can try to work with your husband to repair your marriage or you can end the relationship. Neither road is easy.
Sadly, it’s not uncommon for men to cheat on their wives after the birth of their first child or even during pregnancy.
This does not justify your husband’s actions, but let’s give him the smallest benefit of the doubt and assume that he wasn’t ready to throw away his marriage.
For many men, facing the reality and responsibility of fatherhood can be intimidating, even terrifying. One of the most ecstatic moments of a lifetime can also be a reality check.
Through the affair, he may have been trying to escape his new responsibilities by lapsing into adolescent behavior, which by definition is self-absorbed, short-sighted and oblivious of consequences.
This doesn’t justify anything. But if you see his action as ignorant and hurtful, not malicious, this might allow you to move closer together again. Ask yourself: Could I forgive my husband at some point? Do I still love him? Don’t pressure yourself to “get over it” prematurely. The anger, jealousy, hurt and sadness you feel are normal and shouldn’t be denied. At the same time, be aware of when you are ready to release your feelings and move to the next stage – whatever that is.
Could it be that having a child isn’t always the key to happiness that everyone says it is?
Lurker, maybe Bob is just really in love with his wife? I don’t want children either, but if my husband desperately wanted one and was considering leaving me to fulfill that desire, I can’t honestly say that I wouldn’t do it. If he was sweet and just sad, how long could I really keep saying no? On a scale of 1-10, I don’t want a child to a 9 (there are worse things in life I don’t want to a 10, like AIDS or cancer or something horrible and permanent.) On a scale of 1-10, I love my husband a 10, so… would we live happily ever after? Probably not, but I would do everything I could to try, including doing something I really, really really do not want to do, like having a kid. That doesnt mean a person was never REALLY truly not wanting children. It just means that we have some hard choices to make and sometimes have to sacrifice something we really want, or do what we do not want to. And also, the idea that someone is or isn’t “really CF from the start” is silly. What difference does it make? Most of us just assumed that one day we’ll grow up, get married, have kids. Its what everyone said to us and what we saw adults doing. We question all that when we get older and as we try to figure out who we are. Just because a small child thought one day he’ll be married with children doesn’t mean he wasn’t gay from birth, or CF. It just means he didn’t then know what he would want and what even all those things MEAN.
“…Probably not, but I would do everything I could to try, including doing something I really, really really do not want to do, like having a kid. That doesn’t mean a person was never REALLY truly not wanting children. It just means that we have some hard choices to make and sometimes have to sacrifice something we really want, or do what we do not want to.”
That’s interesting… On a scale of 1-10 I love my husband about a 12. But if I did not want children for all the reasons I don’t want them I doubt I’d still have them to keep my husband with me. For one the chances of the child’s happiness are already slim to none, even if we discount ourselves being happy post event. Two, it’s selfish -it’s to keep – or try to keep a relationship (we already mentioned that), three, I would question his love for me if he was willing to allow me to go through something just because he had a great need for a child. It means his need for a child is greater than his love for me and to me that would be untenable.
I know how kids are often used as sticking plaster – to “show how much I love you” “do you love me? then give me a child because I want one” etc, but it’s like the worst kind of emotional blackmail. When one of the couple doesn’t want a child how is that child going to feel the love it deserves?
Talking of sacrifice -… why shouldn’t he give up wanting a chld? Since adoption hasn’t been an option here, I suspect it’s also the “I must have a child of my own flesh and blood…to make ME happy rather than “any child that needs love and care that I can make happy.”
If my husband went all sweet and sad with longing for a child, after all we’ve been through on the childfree road. I’d tell him to get a grip. It ain’t happening.
Bravo, Britgirl! I agree with you 200%. I would seriously question the thought processes of anyone who would use a child as a bargaining chip in a relationship. By default that means they aren’t cut out to parent regardless of how much they think they want a child.
If my partner decided to choose a child over me that means he wants an egg donor and I would gladly redirect him to one of the 80% of women who will have children. Luckily, I chose someone who puts our relationship first and who knows himself well enough to not respond to bogus cultural forces.
I also had a thought on Lurker’s comment: “I do not know if CF is a genetic “disorder” but in my opinion our genes decide if you are gay or not.” Whoa! That’s heading down a slippery slope. I’m quite sure that most gay people do not consider themselves possessing a genetic “disorder”. There may indeed be a gene or genes that code for homosexuality, but that just means that they are different, not disordered. Those who call it a disorder are generally bible thumpers who live in fear that homosexuality is contagious.
As I said in a previous post, there is a world of difference between desire and ability. Have the plumbing to reproduce no more makes you a parent than owning a guitar makes you a rock star. The world is full of emotionally and physically abused children some of whom undoubtedly were born to parents who always WANTED children (Andrea Yates, for example) and yet were emotionally/psychologically incapable of caring for them. One could argue that they did not have the psychological genes to support good parenting but they still made the choice to reproduce–perhaps because they lacked the ability to apply critical thought to a major life decision.
Whether Bob knew from the time that he was ten that he didn’t want children or as an adult employed his capacity for rational thought and decided to be child free, the point is he decided he does not want to have children. Can he change his mind and reproduce? Of course he can. Will he be happy with that choice? Maybe, maybe not. Because he mentioned that he was considering caving to his wife’s desire to have kids does not mean he was never really child free, that just means he was responding to an external pressure–as many people who have children do every single day. If Bob’s wife had not gotten upset after the visit with her nephew, I’m sure Bob would have kept happily cruising along as he was before. It was clear to me that he wasn’t choosing to have children, he was trying to figure out a way to restore harmony in his relationship/life–two vastly different things.
As a P.S. I’d like to add that I appreciated the comment of Mrs. X who posted here. She was/is in a situation where she had been trying to conceive for four years, which she stated gave her plenty of time to consider why she really wanted a child. She didn’t share what her thoughts were regarding her own motivations to parent, but she did say not to underestimate societal pressure and that if you don’t want a child do not have one.
I’m with you on that one, Britgirl. If my fiance expected me to have children in order to meet his needs and wants, totally negating my wishes, and expecting me to turn over my whole body now and in the future to meeting that need, it would be over. Instantly.
Any man who wants to be with me has to know and understand my feelings about having children. And sometimes that just spells basic incompatibility, It’s not a matter of right or wrong, it’s a matter of conflicting needs. I’d like to think that I care enough about my potential children not to have them, or certainly enough not to bring them into the world unwanted.
Children deserve to be wanted and parents deserve to be willing, happy parents. Nothing else is good enough.,
I have been with my husband for over 6 years (since I was 15) and he is the absolute light of my life. On a scale of 1-10, I love him like a 14. I honestly believe we are soulmates. Just hearing his voice and feeling complete when he is near is enough to reinforce my thinking. Even thinking about him makes me smile. I could go on…
We went into this relationship both knowing the other doesn’t want kids. We have built our lives around each other. He is my number one priority and I am his number one priority. If he would all of a sudden decide that I am no longer his number one priority and a child is, then I would have no choice but to leave the relationship. If he would seriously pick reproducing over me then I don’t want to be with him.
Even if I all of a sudden decided I wanted kids and he still didn’t I don’t see how I could choose reproducing over his wishes. I love him more than reproducing. The second he loves reproducing over me I will know its time for the relationship to end because thats not the kind of relationship I want.
og217: Do not know if I am about to make any sense, but i give it a try..
I do not know if CF is a genetic “disorder” but in my opinion our genes decide if you are gay or not.
Most of those I heard of in the gay group have “always” known/suspected they were gay but lived life in denial. For truly CF with or without kids maybe the same is true?
Most gay would eventually find a partner of the same sex and I believe most truly CF would end up not having kids.
If you want a happy life you need to live it according to whom you are.
Britgirl: For CF with a though decision to make, that was pure gold.
Lee:After posting and reading through my last comment, I saw that some might misinterpret “disorder”. I even wrote an additional comment to point out that of course I do not see gay as an genetic disorder. But for ME that is obvious and kind of assumed it would be understood in the right context, I therefore deleted the additional comment. I apologize if I expressed myself in a clumsy way.
We are all responsible for the choices we make. And its rather pathetic to blame it on somebody else, unless you really are a victim from a bad act of others. I think its alright to discuss the matter and consider both sides of the child issue, but I find it a little bit easy to blame your reproductive choice on the pressure from anybody else than yourself.
I do not say the pressure is not there, because it most definitively is. But to make it an excuse for your choice is in my opinion to run away from your own responsibility.
I can understand that Bob is disappointed to see his happy life sudden change, probably he would just kept it going if the topic of a child never came up. Still, I have a hard time to believe he would have went along with a kid unless he considered it as something he could cope with.
@ Lurker – Come on man, give the guy a break; love makes us people do some incredibly stupid things, among which is to begin questioning our own moral points of view. “Bob” is 36, says he’s been a great relationship for over a decade, married, etc etc – it’s my impression he’s fair set in his ways with his wife and their relationship, used to her mannerisms and emotional states. This sudden change in his wife has him keeling over considering maybe he should compromise himself for her, and from the tone of the story he was doing it out of affection.
I think the real travesty isn’t in him using pressure as an excuse for his reconsideration, it’s possible the compromise of his personal ideals in the first place.
Proposing the idea “Bob” might not be truly CF, I have to point out being child-free isn’t poignantly black or white, it’s a very slippery state of mind.
Lurker, I absolutely agree with you that if the reason you decide to have children is because you are responding to pressure (from anyone) you better be ready to suck up the job of parenting regardless of whether it turns out to be a happy adventure or a major mistake. Saying that you were pressured into it isn’t an excuse to not give 100% if you realize it’s everything you feared it would be. If Bob changes his mind and decides to become a father with his current wife to make her happy, it could make him very unhappy which could snowball into both of them and the child being unhappy.
Example: I know a couple who had two children who were having serious marital problems, to the point where they were headed for divorce. The wife got it into her head that when the first two children were babies, her husband seemed happy so she convinced him to have a third child. Or maybe she oopsed him, I’m not really sure. In any case, she stated emphatically and proudly that they were having another child to cement their relationship. I thought, “Are you completely insane? You already have two that clearly didn’t cement the relationship and now you’ll have a third when the husband has his foot out of the door and he’s foolish enough to agree to this plan?” I suspect the reason he agreed is he really doesn’t care one way or the other since he was willing to leave his wife when they had two kids–what’s one more. Maybe he’d rather stay with his wife and carry on the affair(s) at his convenience rather than pay significant alimony and child support. Either way, in my humble opinion, neither of those two parents is acting like an adult. They are both so selfish and so self-absorbed in their own special ways, I’m surprised they even notice they have children.
Adults manipulate other adults all of the time for all sorts of reasons. When they bring an innocent third party into the mix who didn’t get a vote as to whether they would like to become a sidekick in a dysfunctional relationship, I personally think that is just wrong. In my mind deciding to parent means deciding to be a GOOD parent and having the emotional/psycholigical/financial resources to do so.
P.S. Lurker, I know you are an evolved human, but I just had to make the comment re: the gay gene for my many gay friends–I’m nothing if not loyal.
The sad truth is there are far too many people who consider homosexuality I defect and scourge against God. I guess they forgot about the “Judge not, lest ye be judged”, paradigm.
Sean: Probably we all did some stupid things several times in our lives. And I do not mean to sound harsh or to pick up a fight. I just think we are responsible for our actions no matter how stupid they are.
I am a 36 year old man myself. If I had a child at this age it would be because I decided it was something not so bad to do even if it was my partner who suddenly came up with the idea.
Good discussion.
I think that if Bob is firm in his decision about no kids and his wife gives him an ultimatum (kids or divorce) and he decides to leave the relationship, that would be a good choice on his behalf.
I think that if Bob truly changes his mind and decides that he does want kids and wants to be a parent, weighs the decision in his mind and find that he really has changed his mind about it all that would be a good choice too.
However, a terrible choice would be if Bob decides to have kids with his wife NEVER having wanted one and only consenting to it “to make her happy” . Then being completely uninvolved in his child’s life and neglecting the child along the way only to have the child suffer from issues in the future that came from having an absent father in his or her life.
If you are going to choose to be a parent, don’t do a half-assed job of it. I’ve seen so many men consent to multiple children only because their wives consent to “oh yes dear, I’ll be doing most of the work”. Parenting is work and unless you are prepared to work like you never imagined, don’t bother.
I would like the idea of “compromise” to always be on the exact same page, but in reality, it’s not that way. And I would like to make sweeping statements like “I would never!” and “I always” but the fact of the matter is that I am not made of stone and I have to live in this world, with other people. Some of whom I actually want to live in the same world with. So luckily my husband and I are on the same page on this, we discussed this, and its settled. And if he suddenly demanded a child and threatened to leave, I would let him go. It’s the sad, wistful desire that he would put aside for me that would make me want to give in to make him happy. Would I want a child? Not really. Would it be a happy wanted child? Honestly, I would not care, that would be the job of the parent who desperately wanted the child, to make the child feel wanted. I would do my best, given my limitations in the matter.
I think I am articulating a lot of families’ situations. If it sounds bad, well, life isn’t all roses and rainbows and bunnies. Thankfully I am not stuck in this scenario. It must suck for the children and the parents who are. But who knows what the road not taken would have been? Not all decisions that have been thought out are great, wonderful decisions. Sometimes, after much deliberation, we have to chose what to us is the lesser of two evils. I am not saying everyone should do as I do and think like I think. But I know that if I were to be truly honest, that I could, given certain circumstances and prerequisites, consent to having a child. I love my husband very much and we have enough financially to ease some of the burden, and I would just power through. As I would if I had a stroke. I don’t particularly want a stroke, but I’d power through and do my best. If my parents became indigent and had to come live with me, I’d be a pretty unhappy camper, but again, I would power through. Of course I could chose differently, but I would not. I would do what I don’t really want to do, whats harder and what would impact my happiness because I would make that choice. In the meantime, I pray to not have strokes, child-desperate husband, or indigent parents. My husband feels the same way. If I wake up with rabid baby fever someday, he will be ok with it and do his best. Obviously adjustments will have to be made and all sorts of changes, but he says that he loves me, and that our life is together, whatever happens.
Maybe THAT is unconditional love?
Totally off topic, but this threw me: One of only 2 childfree couples that I know sent an email announcing that they have just adopted a baby. The woman is 49. The child is of a different race and severely underweight. WTF? I thought they were happy and CF were sort of my role models. Now of course I don’t know what to think. I mean, adoption is great, my best friend is adopted, its a lovely concept, but people do not import severely underweight infants from a really, really bad place on earth, waste years and thousands of dollars on the process unless they are, what? Demented? Desperate? I am toootally floored. 49 years old!!!
Sorry you just lost a role model
It was a bit unsettling for me a couple of years ago when my best friend, who always said she had been CF from an early age, began to think she wanted a baby, when she turned 30. She left her BF of 13 years some months ago for other reasons, and she’s not so sure of what she wants. But now she says she envies me for still being sure I don’t want kids, so I guess I’m the role model now!
I read a newspaper article today about older women who are getting fed up at dealing with teenagers at the same time as getting hot flushes. They’re exhausted. Of course, it was a story on leaving it too late to have kids, but still – one of those things that “older mothers seem to selectively ignore… you have a lot less energy to deal with hormone pumping rude demanding teens at 50+.
I learned through my friends that adopted a child that many Western countries have age restrictions for adoptive parents. You can only be a certain number of years older than the child in many places in Europe and I believe the U.S. Also, in some countries, if you are adopting a soon to be born infant, the birth mother retains her right to change her mind at any point, right up until the adoption, which I imagine could be somewhat of a stress fest.
Your friends may have chosen a third world country because they have fewer restrictions.
I feel as you do about the late in the game parents. While adoption is a most wonderful thing and a noble gesture, I personally feel that having or adopting a child when you are close to fifty years old is a tad selfish. The truth is that you are going to be seventy years old when that child has grown up and is starting out in the world. Unless you are a) amazingly healthy and fit and b) so financially well off that you have prepared for your retirement and possible health problems and c) have put in place a back-up caretaker should you stroke out with no warning, you are setting your child up to be an orphan all over again or to care for you in old age at the time when they should be experiencing life, youth, and the world. I know a couple who had their first and probably only child when the mother was in her late forties. They were together ten years prior but never had a child because they wanted to travel and they couldn’t decide if they wanted to stay together. They split up three times in ten years then decided they should have a child. Huh?! I don’t know what that’s about, and in so many ways it’s not my business but when they announced the pregnancy I almost choked on my drink. I’m not hopeful about the outcome re: the relationship lasting. I think a lot of people try to have it all because they think that they deserve it all, but sometimes in life you don’t get to have every single thing you want and understanding that is part of being an adult. The best life is loving what you have. I truly feel for people who live with a constant nagging sense of dissatisfaction and are always looking for another human, large or small, to fill the emptiness.
Lee: Its just fair to stand up for friends. I am shocked when I hear about how people try to “cure” homosexuality by pray or other ways.
Luker: Right?! The religious groups who try to re-program gays to be straight are absurd! If only they spent half as much time campaigning on behalf of the homeless, the hungry, the handicapped as they did worrying about things that don’t need to be fixed because they aren’t broken, what a wonderful world it would be! I had to laugh when the candidate for Miss America a self-proclaimed “Christian ” spoke out at every opportunity against gay marriage and homosexuality, while simultaneously posing for nude or partially nude photos which were made all the more provocative by the breast implants that she let the pageant officials buy for her. What’s wrong with this picture?
I think we’re veering off topic here, can we get back to Bob and his potentially soon to be lost childfree-ness?
Yes. If leaving his wife is not an option he wants to pursue he will have to figure out whose desires and resentment and certainty is potentially stronger. Obviously his wife with a child will be a completely different person and he has to understand that either way, he will lose some aspects of his wife and marriage…
Perhaps this is cruel and manipulative but… could he perhaps dilly dally for a few more months or a year and then agree to stop using birth control? If she’s his age, she may not get pregnant anyway, and he can pick a few fights along the way over lack of oral “so its all about pregnancy, not about us, not about MY pleasure? Is this what it’s going to be like?” and then it can seem like he genuinly gave it a go, but it simply wasn’t meant to be? Of course this plan has a pretty high failure chance.
I still like my idea of divorce best. She should then proceed to the first available sperm bank and they can date or even live together, but Bob will have no responsibility to that child. Of course I’m pretty sure his wife won’t go for that because she wants the baby and the thrilled, sexless man who is so enamored with feces-covered diapers that he doesn’t notice that his wife’s breasts look like a spaniel’s ears and that he hasn’t slept or read a book in 3 years. But given their particular situation, where he has told her over the course of a decade that he doesn’t want children, she is the one who now changed her mind so she should be the one to adjust her expectations and settle for what she can get and be happy.
@ “she is the one who now changed her mind so she should be the one to adjust her expectations and settle for what she can get and be happy.”
Yes. I don’t understand why it is that it’s automatically Bob who is expected to turn his life inside out.
I am so sorry to hear what you are going through and my sympathies truly go out to both you and your wife.
Normally, I would suggest marriage counseling HOWEVER most marriage counselors are parents and therefore have a bias toward encouraging couples to come to an agreement to have children. I work with marriage and family counselors (although I am not one myself). One day, a colleague (therapist) and I were having lunch and I was telling her about my childfreedom. She said it was interesting…that it seems like a number of her current clients are dealing with the issue of whether to have kids. She told me about one specific couple. Like you, they had agreed prior to marriage that they would not have children and they were both whole-heartedly behind this agreement. Fast forward a few years and the woman changed her mind and DESPERATELY wanted a child. My colleage said, “so we spent a lot of time exploring the husband’s reasons for not wanting to have children and he didn’t seem to be able to articulate precise reasons for not wanting children – he just didn’t want them.” So my question to her was, “did you explore the WIFE’S reasons for changing her mind and suddenly WANTING children?” Of course, this rendered her speechless and she looked at me blankly and it was clear that it never occurred to her to ask this question because OF COURSE the childfree person is the pathological one. She seemed to stutter a bit as she replied, “no… the session had come to an end at that point and we ran out of time”, but I could tell from how off-guard I had caught her that the thought of exploring the WIFE’S issues never even occurred to her. Why? Because my colleague is a mother and like most parents, assumes parenthood is the best choice for everyone (and the healthy choice) and assumes the party not wanting children is the “sick” one that needs help.
But think about it. The wife is the one renegging on the agreement, not the husband, and yet she is the sympathetic party. Why was the therapist investigating the husband’s reasons for his stance instead of the wife’s change of mind? Shouldn’t she have been exploring the woman’s issues? Why have her feelings changed? Why is she renegging on their agreement? What is this void she suddenly feels that can only be filled by a child? What is lacking in life? etc.
Anyway, I am not sure this comment is helpful to you, but just know that being childfree is a wonderful life, and well worth sticking to your guns for, but it is not the easiest choice, and certainly not the choice that is encouraged, or even understood in our society. You will not find a lot of people in everyday life who will be patting you on the back for your decision. It’s the price we pay for taking the road less travelled, but it is a price that is well worth paying, in my opinion.
Please feel free to visit my blog too. I think you will find a lot of validation and support there as well.
http://childfreedom.blogspot.com/
“Why? Because my colleague is a mother and like most parents, assumes parenthood is the best choice for everyone (and the healthy choice) and assumes the party not wanting children is the “sick” one that needs help
That is so telling, it’s almost scary.
Even if the wife does not want to ruin the relationship, I think that is exactly what she does. Especially if she keeps up a pressure towards Bob. She might as well told Bob that he no longer was the right man for her and that any other man (men with kids) was more attractive in her eyes.
Do you think that children are now the leading cause of divorce? Some time ago it was money, but it seems to me lik enow its to have or not to have children and the fact that one, usually the woman, lets herself go and becomes uninterested in her husband that causes people to split up.
I’m not sure about other countries, but where I live most divorces are instituted by women. The complaint is largely that the men don’t help enough with the home and kids, spend all the time in the pub, etc. Sounds to me like there were a lot of men out there who perhaps didn’t really want the kids in the first place.
If only people would just be honest with each other, it would save so much heartbreak.
P.S. Bob, I also think you should get a vasectomy. If you are positive you do not want children, this will protect you from any “surprises”.
Childfreeeee:
A vasectomy can become a burden if your partner deep inside want kids. My point is that Bob`s vasectomy can save him for surprises but want give total happiness unless the vasectomy is supported by his partner.
Bob, I certainly feel for you and so so many people are in similar positions.
I think we need to all keep in mind that Childfree people are people. We make mistakes and bad choices. We do things that perhaps we should not do. Sometimes, we second guess ourselves.
I am engaged to a man who says he is ok with or without children. I have thought about what would happen if he changed his mind and insisted that he wanted children. (He knows exactly how I feel. I have never and will never ever want a child.) I know what the RIGHT choice is. I know that if he truly loved me he would never ever ask me to sacrifice my life, my body, my ideals and my happiness for his selfish desire.
However, I love him with my whole heart. I have done many illogical things to make him happy (aka being in the process of leaving my good job to be with him in his city 500 miles away with no job prospects). If this does happen in the future, I hope that I will be strong enough to walk away… not only for myself, but for the potential child. I am a teacher of young adults and I see the effects of half hearted parenting (or no parenting). It is cruel and terrible to have a child that is not fully wanted and loved by both parents (not saying that single parents are bad, but it does make life harder for everyone involved). I do hope and pray I would be strong enough to say no to all of that… but I may not be.
So yes, I can understand how Bob can consider giving his wife what she thinks she wants. However, I don’t think it’s the best thing to do… and at the same time, I won’t judge someone who does this. I will pity them and hope that I will make the right choice if I am in this situation.
Been there! My husband and I split b/c i didn’t want kids, 10 yr marriage, he knew i never wanted them. Now im 32, alone.
But i think you cannot have kids unless you 100% want them. Your relationship won’t survive.
But I think your wife is somewhat selfish. You can’t get _everything_ out of life. It just doesn’t happen. She has a husband who loves here dearly (clearly…) and if she breaks it off to find a baby-maker, how long will that take? What will the relationship be like? Will she run out of time to get preggo when looking for another guy? Why is it ok in this society to break every other commitment you made just b/c a baby-clock goes off in your head? She needs to be grateful for what she has.
Don’t go against your gut– she knew the deal. Its her loss if she changes up, and it seems like sadly she’s just no longer the woman you married if she does.
Im sorry for your pain.
mo – I often think the great thing about being childfree is that we aren’t on a clock. It doesn’t matter if we are alone at 32 because what’s the rush! It gives us the freedom to experience more than one deep, meaningful relationship, and to move on if necessary.
I’d like to have a long term love, but if it doesn’t happen for a while, there is no deadline. I might meet the love of my life when I’m 80, and there won’t be any kids around to complain that mum’s gone mad to be marrying at 80! haha
I imagine it must have been very painful, I’m happy for you that you made the right choice. Well done. I hope if/when the time comes in my own relationship to make that choice, I will also choose the right path. (I suspect I will, it won’t be easy but it will be a hell of a lot easier than raising kids!)