First thanks to Dave and Anne-Marie for sending me this article about the childfree choice in Macleans Magazine…you were quite right it makes quite an interesting article for the blog.
It’s funny, when I read the article the first feeling I had wasn’t “fantastic, a childfree article in a major magazine!” it was “We’ve been here. Long time. We (meaning childfree people) have been discussing this online for years.We have the book and the tee-shirt and the DVD” But then, I thought “But not everybody knows this. Not everyone knows there are childfree blogs – or even know of the word childfree. The article uses the word “childless by choice”, so too do some of the commentators, which is telling. What did hit me was the fact that whenever a person in the public eye makes a statement about being childfree, it gets discussed as if it’s a completely new phenomenon. What do you think?
Personally I think it’s good that more positive articles are appearing – perhaps that’s one way to bring recognition to the childfree choice, and every little helps. However I always think of those of us who are living it day to day – some who have been doing so for many years and think that they, not celebrities are the people that matter and it’s their voices we need to hear. (Yes, I do need to get that book done already!)
I read the article and has this feeling we’ve moved further along. It’s not that we don’t get the bingoes – we do. But we are talking not just about the intrusiveness into our choice but the impact on our relationships, the difficult and the joyful decisions, the highs and the lows of being childfree. And how we can support each other. Because we know most of us get little or no support in society when it comes to being childfree. At the same time I know that when people stumble upon Like It Is for the first time they are thrilled to find the in-depth discussions we have here… no matter what stage of their lives they happen to be.
All in all I liked the fact the article focused on fact that some couples are considering the childfree option in what is a pro-natalist world, highlighting the bingoes we all get still… and I thought overall the comments were interesting – even the one saying that
the “idea that we live in a pro-natalist society is absurd..”
What? Hello? Clearly an understanding of what “pro-natalist” means is needed there. Because we most certainly do live in a pro-natalist society.
And this one:
“Anyone’s decision to have or not have kids is a personal one and ought to be respected. I disagree that we live in a “pro-natalist” society. Really?
During the recent construction boom I saw plenty of “Adult Lifestyle” communities advertised. Which would be great if those who don’t want kids and can’t tolerate them moved into such communities. But they don’t. They mix with families and make our lives miserable. Unfortunately, there aren’t “Family Only” communities.
I think those that choose not to have kids are rewarded handsomely for their choices. They are rewarded financially and professionally for not taking a “time out” to bear and raise children. Give me a break.
As for those negative comments? Please. Those comments are coming from the same people who would criicize your parenting skills if they did have kids and likely have been critical of all their choices to date.
By the way, the usual “people who don’t have kids are and abnormal and selfish” suspects crawled out of the woodwork in a hurry. No surprise there.
I did post a response though on the article. Here is is.
“Many childfree men and women (we prefer that term to childless by choice since we don’t see not wanting/having children as a “lack” and we don’t see ourselves as “less” anything) have been talking about it for years. And living very happy lives. People can find some vibrant discussion and support on my blog http://thebritgirl.com as well as on several other childfree blogs. We actually discussed Ms Maier’s book in some detail months ago when it came out in France.
Life would be a lot easier if folk just recognized that we have a choice as to whether or not to have children and those who have chosen not to have exercised that choice. Sadly we often have to put up with intrusive questions, criticism and sometimes out and out scorn for that choice. We call these “bingoes”
I also wouldn’t say Ms Maier is “our most defiant advocate” but that’s a matter of opinion. She certainly ran the flak gamut in being forthright about her thoughts on having children… having had two herself. We’ve been fed many myths all our lives (from “children will take care of you in your old age” to “motherhood is the ultimate achievement for women” to “having children is selfless.” The childfree are de-bunking many of them by just living their lives… without apology.”
Your thoughts? Have a read of No Kids No Grief yourself and share your thoughts about it here.
{ 57 comments… read them below or add one }
The article — which isn’t the full print version, apparently — doesn’t tread any new ground. It seems like a rehash of the same “Wow, there are people who don’t want kids!” pieces that periodically surface here and there. Maybe that’s good for no other reason than the visibility … but it brings the antagonistic breeder-types out of the woodwork in the comments, as usual.
“but it brings the antagonistic breeder-types out of the woodwork in the comments, as usual.”
Oh my god, yes. The comment about how the childfree make the lives of “families” (because apparently no unit without children can EVAH be a family) miserable was priceless. Because we don’t appreciate badly behaved children? Because we don’t go out of our way to indulge the difficulties brought on by their parents’ choices?
“I think those that choose not to have kids are rewarded handsomely for their choices. They are rewarded financially and professionally for not taking a “time out” to bear and raise children. Give me a break.”
Rewarded how? By whom? If you take time out and don’t update your skills (no, being a mommy doesn’t give you magical skills) then you will suffer career wise. It’s not some giant conspiracy by Teh Patriarchy, it’s simply the consequences of your actions. I though having children made you mature? Hell, I thought that all us CF women were cold and unnatural for apparently focusing on our careers. It sounds like you’re jealous, even though you claim to value your children more.
It always fascinates me how many people will comment after reading articles about women not wanting children. There seems to be so much to say about something affecting no one but those who choose not to have children.
Even more fascinating: that these articles need to be written, that “childfree” is still considered a curious anomaly begging for exploration and explanation.
The attention to childfree-ness makes me think of the attention to homosexuality, in a way, and our country’s obsession with whether someone is gay. (Most recently, entertainment magazines went crazy over whether Adam Lambert was gay. Is he? Isn’t he? WE MUST KNOW! Where, oh where, is he putting that penis of his?)
Really, honestly, truly – who cares? What I do with my uterus is as much anyone’s business as who I (or Adam Lambert, for that matter) have sex with, how, and how often.
Granted, the childfree choice makes for interesting, heated, opinionated, and self-righteous disagreements that create compelling reading, but I think I would just like to know why anyone cares who does and doesn’t want children. I’d like to know why someone commented on my blog, some time ago, that they thought my writing about not having children was a way to “justify” to myself my decision to not have children.
As if there were something to justify.
I’ll never really understand the deep and prying interest in someone else’s personal lifestyle choices.
Yep yep, I hate the whole culture around people trying to force others to justify their choices. It’s not just the childfree one either, but that is a major sticking point. I’ve had a few arguments with people when I’ve asked them to justify their reasons for having children as opposed to my decision not to. Funnily enough, they never have an answer!
What amazes me, is that some people are so blinkered about how parenting is OMG! SO IMPORTANT! CAN’T DO ANYTHING ELSE! ALL WOMEN WERE BORN FOR IT!!!!!1!!!!1111! that even when I give them a major reason for not having children, which is legitimate (I have a potentially fatal genetic disease, 75% chance of it being passed on, may result in life spent in hospital, massive amounts of surgery, and early death) they only see social reasons. They completely ignore anything other than social reasons that they are digging for, I assume to vindicate themselves and their choice. It worries me sometimes that people don’t see that as a legitimate reason, and whether these would be the same people who would go to excruciating lengths to have a child, despite knowing it was going to die/spend a lifetime in hospital and would have a relatively poor quality of life.
I can’t help but think that a few more people in the world need to remove their blinkers.
It’s also quite amusing that the you-must-reproduce-or-you-are-not-real crowd think they KNOW what’s best for others. Presumably women are able to think for and make live decisions for themselves… at least last time I looked – except when it comes to daring to say “No” to reproduction. When it comes to that suddenly we are in need of being corrected from our erroneous ways.
-CF IS THE BEST KEPT SECRET-
To me this sentence says it all.
Why put myself in a worse situation just to add another human on this overcrowded planet? It makes no sense to me.
Travel, freedom, less worries. I would not change it for all the love in the world.
“…(no, being a mommy doesn’t give you magical skills)…”
I realise this is neither mature nor balanced, but now every time somebody talks about doing TMIJITW, I will find myself snickering behind my hand, thinking, “Yeah! TEH l33T MOMMY SKILLZ!!!11!!1!!!!!”
what the hell is TMIJITW? i keep seeing it…
“Even more fascinating: that these articles need to be written, that “childfree” is still considered a curious anomaly begging for exploration and explanation. ”
my dad said something odd the other night when i broke the news to him – he said “you sound like those new agers who go on about their “feelings” all the time. i don’t see why you’re even thinking about this.” my mum said “i think you just like to be different, and i think it’s sad that you’re making such a big choice just so you can be different from everyone else.”
ummm…dad, should i be ignoring my feelings and thinking, or should i be ignoring my thoughts and “feeling” my way through this? or should i just have kids anyway and stop feeling AND thinking for the rest of my life?
and mum, maybe I just AM different from everyone else?
They made me feel as though I had to justify my choice, and it’s out of character for them because until now they have supported me in every decision I’ve made – and some of them have been huge. People are weird.
TMIJITW – the most important job in the world.
Cos nothing’s more important than being a parent, doncha know! *eye roll*
@ serrin – “ummm…, or should i be ignoring my thoughts and “feeling” my way through this? or should i just have kids anyway and stop feeling AND thinking for the rest of my life?”
I think your Dad might just pick the “have kids anyway, don’t bother thinking about it…
What is shocking to me is how racist some of the comments are — basically saying “white culture is going down the toilet, if you are white you must breed!” Oh, and their code words for white are “real Canadians” and “Europeans.” Absolutely disgusting.
Yep, I was pretty disgusted by that, especially since anybody in Canada with white skin has most definitely come from an immigrant family – even if the immigration happened to be a couple of hundred years back.
@Chris – Not only is the “cultchar” going down the toilet, it’s all those childfree, sorry, childless types fault who should be doing their bit to save humanity
@chris… brings them crawling out of the woodwork like clockwork, or from under whatever rock they generally hide under. To think some of these are parents who are supposedly passing on “values” to their offspring!” Scary thought.
I was stoked when this arrive in my mailbox, complete with screaming headline, last night. I can’t wait for the vitriol to flow in next week’s letters to the editor.
It wasn’t anything I haven’t read before, but Britgirl, you’re right. We live the life, read the blogs, and this is old hat to us – but to some people it’s pretty damn revolutionary. Even if the article wasn’t anything groundbreaking in terms of CF news – it was there, in big letters, on one of the most widely read and respected magazines in Canada. We’re finally finding a voice, and people are starting to question the deeply held assumptions about children. In the long run, that can only be good for everyone, regardless of whether you parent or not. There are enough unhappy adults and screwed up kids out there, we don’t need any more, and if articles like this can raise awareness that “hey, you don’t HAVE to go there” – that’s a win, in my book.
“There are enough unhappy adults…” perhaps some of those posters need to read the comments of their fellow parents – all.. ooh nearly 800 of them who could barely find a good thing to say about parenting. So unhappy are they with parenting that they vented on Dooce.
Most didn’t even bother to say it’s “worth it” because they were so unhappy.
http://thebritgirl.com/2009/01/13/the-truth-about-parenting-and-essential-reading-for-the-childfree/
The only time you can see true happiness in the face of a parent, is when they mention the chance they got to spend some time by themselves without children.
I think many choose to reproduce because they are greedy and want it all. When the truth about parenting hits right in their face then the truth about themselves are reveled.
Is it really logic to think that those who chose to not reproduce are lazy, selfish and immature people? Of course not! Its nice to read about a happy, successful and determined CF couple.
“The only time you can see true happiness in the face of a parent, is when they mention the chance they got to spend some time by themselves without children.”
So true, Lurker! My entire life I’ve noticed how so many people are so anxious to have kids. Only when they arrive, then they are always so happy that they “got the baby to sleep” or “the kids are out playing” or “the kids are in school”, etc.
The thing about parents being happiest when they are without their kids seems to be true.
Five weeks ago a colleague’s wife had their second child; their first is not quite 20 months (yup). She (the wife) is now on nine months’ maternity leave but she continues to send their 20-month-old to childcare three days a week because ‘he has a lot of energy’. (What not-quite-two-year-old doesn’t?) Besides, ‘he likes it; he’s really gregarious’. And when they are alone together, she says, they ‘argue’.
I am not sure at what age children have the neurological/social ability to form friendships with other babies, but I would have thought at this stage of his young life, he would prefer to be with his mother (or his Dad). However, it appears that this is inconvenient, and so a kid who has been in childcare since the age of six months continues to go to a filthy germy bug-hole just so Mother can get some time to herself.
This kid has had every illness you can think of: cold after cold after cold, gastro, eczema, bronchitis, recurring bouts of pinkeye, a bite wound(!), and a few other things I can’t recall right now. Of course, his poor little immune system can’t cope and he is ALWAYS ill because he is constantly being sent back to childcare, where he gets re-infected. Worse still, he brings these pestilences home to his parents and the infant, who by the tender age of two-and-a-half weeks had suffered a cold. This illness did not however interrupt the parents’ plans to fly interstate (with the kids) to go to a party (a party for themselves, not the kids). Yup, sick tiny newborn on a plane.
This baby, now five weeks old, now has pinkeye.
And they say we ‘childless’ people are selfish! Sometimes I have to bite my tongue so hard it’s a wonder I still got one. I dig the Dad but he seems to have no say in anything these days.
On the plus side, those kids will have killer immune systems when they’re older!
I’m exhausted after reading some of the comments after the article- too many people getting too defensive about what is a personal choice. The fear mongering that we will all be extinct if this continues, as if this is a massive trend among humans on this planet. Please. The racist comments were particularly disturbing- so on top of all the other bingos, I need to breed to preserve the “cultural heritage” of Canada, because obviously, if you are childfree, you are automatically white and Christian and in complete fear of Muslims taking over the country and instilling sharia law?
Oy.
Not only that, but why is it so bad if we DO die out? What’s so important about US? Hundreds of species die out all the time and nobody cares, why should we be any different? The Earth will get along just fine without us.
Actually the earth will be subject to 100% probability of destruction without some manner of technological intervention. Humans may have the potential to no just deflect asteroids that could shatter the earth like glass but they may have the ability to actually move the planet away from catastrophic stellar phenomenon like wandering black holes or the inevitable supernova of our sun. At the same time we are destroying many species on earth but this doesn’t matter because for all purposes they are dead anyway. The only uncertainty is what would an advanced human species be able to do in regards to these threats and how might the remaining species thrive under their future dominion. Concepts like good or bad are subjective and pointless, but anybody who argues the earth has value must realize humanity is earths only salvation from non-terrestrial threats.
I really am not convinced by this argument. Miraculously, the world has been able to somehow avoid disaster for billions of years without human intervention. There is no guarantee that humans even could comprehend and address an extraterrestrial threat. And there is a very real threat that humans will breed until their demands on the earth’s resources transform it into a wasteland that would be improved somewhat by a supernova.
There have been many mass extinction and the planet has been devastated by mass collisions in the past, in fact one may have created our moon by shattering earth. To say that this will never happen again is problematic considering it has happened. Further more to argue that it won’t happen at a greater magnitude is difficult to sustain i believe.
Also we as humans have been able to comprehend extraterrestrial threats. NASA has programs that are attempting to develop contingency plans for asteroid deflection, that alone is demonstration of comprehension of a threat.
A supernova is a stellar event where all nuclear fuel is expended. As a result the sun expands and it is likely to expand to where it will engulf earth, vaporize it , along with whatever life remains and then collapse back into a dead star. This cannot be avoided as the sun cannot replenish it’s stock of nuclear fuel, the laws of conservation of mass prevent this. No living organism can survive this event. To say improved implies death of all life is an improvement, however if non-human life is good a supernova is not a good thing.
While i agree there is a real threat humans will breed and destroy most life and themselves there is a possibility they will only destroy some fraction of life and be able to save themselves the earth, and the remaining species of earth from a planet destroying event. In addition man has the ability to save genetic information and potentially restore species and potentially make new ones via artificial selection or genetic engineering. Considering the 100% guarantee of an inevitable extinction event life is doomed without some intervention. Saving life by sacrificing humanity would be a pointless exercise because it would guarantee species total destruction. If earth or future species have any subjective value then by extension so does an agent that can potentially shield them from destruction, they are dead otherwise.
The only real guarantee is that everything on earth, and the earth itself is dead without some sort of technological intervention.
But, same question – what makes the EARTH so important? The universe is big, everything has a beginning and an end, why should human kind, or the Earth, or our galaxy, or even the universe itself be any different?
(I think this is the Buddhist influences in my life coming out.)
serrin i agree, earth really doesn’t have any more importance or value then we give it considering the sheer volume of planets. But i think the moment a person makes the value judgment Earth or Life is important then humanity gains importance by default in it’s potential capacity to prolong these ephemeral things.
serrin says:
Not only that, but why is it so bad if we DO die out? What’s so important about US? Hundreds of species die out all the time and nobody cares, why should we be any different? The Earth will get along just fine without us.
Yes! Thank you. I’ve heard, “It’s in our nature to procreate. We must make the species go on.”
Me: “Why? To what end?”
Person: “You don’t want the race to go on?”
Me: “What do I care if it goes on? What’s its purpose?”
Person: *
@ Anne-Marie..LOL…judging by their responses I think that’s what keeps them awake at night!
On the subject of what would happen if humans were extinct, there is a wonderful book on the subject by Alan Weisman called The World Without Us. I highly recommend it to anyone who has wondered what would indeed happen to the rest of the planet if our species disappeared.
I am reminded that we came close to extinction thousands of years ago, and survived probably only because we can make and then throw projectiles. We’re not particularly skilled at anything else, really.
I am reminded that we came close to extinction thousands of years ago, and survived probably only because we can make and then throw projectiles.
That made me laugh out loud.
if you have babies… you can understand only from the view point of having babies. Your
brain/mind doesn’t allow you to understand from a childless view any more.
As it would be extremely cruel if women who have bore children say I wish I hadn’t had any.
so the only valid statements are from the childless people. They are explaining something very important to everyone. Stop producing babies out of selfishness/
Or being controlled by the biological need. See the bigger pictures this what the article is really about.
I must be weak or stupid, I never really realized I had a choice. I told people I wasn’t going to have kids and I put it off as long as possible then caved. I have a great life and love my two sons but after 15 years as a stay at home mom, my career is shot and I am financially dependent on my husband. I couldn’t say I have regrets because I would never wish away my lovely family and the life we’ve shared but I respect those who’ve had the intelligence to realized we were being indoctrinated and the courage to stand by their decisions. I’m grateful for these stories because I don’t want to be righteousness or to perpetuate the brainwashing. Life should be about informed choices and having the freedom to make them. I get heat just for telling my kids that marriage & children are optional. I can’t believe how many people go on about “having a baby!!!” I remind them the baby part lasts about a year, they are, in fact, having a ‘human’. I’m sorry for the smugness & hostility childfree people endure. Please cut us some slack, we breeders were brought up not knowing any better.
@Jane.. you’re not weak and stupid… you just didn’t realize you had a choice. It’s not as though it’s taught in schools, it’s hardly ever seen in popular media and it’s barely talked about elsewhere. It is never presented as an option… the only “option” is how many kids you’re going to have.
The overwhelming response to why have kids? is still “well it’s what you do isn’t it?” It doesn’t even occur to most people to even question it. But once you do… there is no putting the genie back into the bottle. It’s the reason I am glad mags like Macleans are writing this article… even though it’s not new ground for most on this blog, it’s being talked about and some men and women will know for the first time ever that they do have a choice. And that they are not freaky.
@Jane
Good for you for making sure to tell your own children that they have a choice whether or not to have kids of their own. It sounds like you’re doing your job as a parent to raise your children to think long and hard about what they want to do and why they want to do it before making any decisions – hopefully they’ll be able to pass that attitude along, to their own children (should they have any), and to their peers. It’s ok to have regrets about what might have been, but that doesn’t mean that you love your children any less (my friend loves her girls, but she can still be sad about the things she wasn’t able to do because she became a mom), and it sounds like you’re doing your best with the life that you’re living.
Don’t think you’re weak or stupid. Britgirl’s right – the level of indoctrination into the “parenthood is the ONLY choice” is deeply ingrained into the media and the majority of the population barely talks about what it really means to become a parent, other than to say, “don’t worry – you’ll love it when you become one (and if you don’t, there’s obviously something wrong with you).” It’s hard to stand up to that kind of pressure, especially when no one’s told you that there’s an equally viable and normal alternative.
BTW – I am totally going to use the reply, “It’s not having a baby, it’s having a human” whenever I get the “but you should have a baby because [fill in the blank]” arguments.
I think a lot of people still don’t realize they have a choice. I think people begin to feel like their lives are being driven by outside forces (you want this car, this job, this outfit, this husband, this wife, this baby…) and give in to most life decisions because they feel pressured or that it is societally “correct.”
I think a big part of the CF community is to be here and say you do have a choice! Don’t let your husband, wife, boyfriend, mother, father, aunt or uncle tell you how to make decisions (namely the biggest and most permanent one of all… a child). Think for yourself, see the options, understand the implications of your decisions, empower yourself…
For me, the empowerment I feel in making a decision to be CF has allowed all other aspects of my life to fall into place. Those years of confusion of “but I’m supposed to have a family, even if I have no desire whatsoever to care for a child?” and the subsequent wondering about how I’d have to “make it work” are all over now. I am proud of who I am.
yes… I even think that some give more thought to buying a car or house than they do to having a child. In fact, I don’t think… I know, because I have heard some of them.
I’m glad I stumbled onto this blog. I’m on the fence about whether or not I ultimately want kids. Like a lot of people, I have that Kodak shot in my head about what I’d like a child of mine to be like, what I’d be like as a parent, etc., but I also know that it’s a fantasy and that the reality will likely be something that I can’t even imagine, so I’m not going to have a kid on the basis of that picture in my head. I’m also happy to admit any desire of mine for a child is based on purely self-serving reasons – it seems perfectly obvious to me that the choice to have kids is based on selfish desire just as much as the choice to not have kids, as both are ultimately based on what the person in question wants for themselves (any parent that claims being a parent is proof of their selflessness is selling crap – sure, being a parent requires one to be selfless because the needs of the child come first, that’s the nature of parenthood, but the decision to have children is based on the PARENTS’ desires since the kids they’ll be so self-sacrificing for haven’t asked to be born because they don’t exist yet!).
I also have a lot of reasons why I wouldn’t want to have a kid – not the least of which is that I practically raised my kid brother because my mother was sick and died before I hit puberty, so I’ve got a pretty good grasp of the amount of self-sacrifice that goes along with parenting, and I can honestly say that I am not all that eager to give up my freedom to do so again, especially now that as an adult, I’ve got a choice. It’s one among many reasons.
I can see why people would want to have children and why they wouldn’t, but if there’s one thing I’m sure of, it’s that I’m not having any until I’m damn sure that I want them and I’m willing to give up everything – my time, energy, money and freedom – to being a parent.
I’ve been reading a lot of CF blogs lately, and I have to agree, the pressure to have kids because “that’s what people do,” rather than it’s because parenthood is what they REALLY WANT, is enormous and ridiculous in the extreme. It makes me want to not have kids just to give a big, fat, middle finger to societal pressure. The fact that an article like this is being sold as a novelty, even though people have been choosing to live as childfree for ages (and oh, what do you know, the world hasn’t ended yet!), demonstrates just how pervasive the idea that parenthood is an inevitable part of adulthood is. People also buy homes/switch careers/get married, but (ideally) not before doing a lot of soul-searching, negotiation, and careful research into what those choices entail (and even those choices aren’t for everyone) – why is it acceptable to do any less when coming to the decision about whether or not to have kids?
Not to mention, the vitriol with which many of responses to the article spewed towards people who have chosen to be CF is unbelievable. How does one person’s choice to not have kids affect another’s choice to do so? I’m happily married to my husband, but I have friends that don’t believe in marriage and that’s fine since it’s their choice and their lives and we respect each other. I may decide to have kids or not, but no matter what choice I make, I know it’s going to be right for me and me only – it does not and should not apply to anyone else.
I appreciate reading this blog because there’s a lot of thoughtful discussion about aspects of our culture and how it’s so deeply pro-children, which is something I’ve never given much thought to before as to how it’s affected my own decision-making process. I used to take it for granted I’d have 2 kids (due to my own experience of how much having a sibling meant to me when both my parents died before I hit 15), but that was before I stopped to honestly think about what it would mean for me now and how it would really and truly affect the life my husband and I are carving out for ourselves. There’s a lot that I agree about with the CF lifestyle, but I’ve also read comments and blogs from the CF side of things that make me just as uncomfortable (or angry) as the entitled “the universe revolves around me and my children” tone of the heavy pro-parent side of the spectrum. I understand how hard and lonely it is when you’re lifestyle choice puts you in the minority and results in unwarranted criticism and hostility, but it doesn’t help when there’s an automatic assumption that people with kids are going to be smug, judgmental parents.
Maybe I’m lucky, but I know far more people who are good parents who respect their friends’ choices even if they’re not the choices the parents would make for themselves, rather than smug know-it-all breeders. The woman who’s been like my surrogate mother has been one of the best resources I could have about parenting because she’s never, ever tried to sugarcoat her decision to have kids and what it’s cost her, despite her deep and abiding love for her kids; and never once has she told me that deciding not to have kids isn’t a valid lifestyle choice – she’s of the firm opinion, as am I, that no child deserves to be born to a parent that doesn’t absolutely want that child with all their heart. Jebus knows, I hate having to deal with smug and/or lackluster parents who do nothing to stop little Johnny from screaming and running around in public and ruining my date night/movie/lunch break because “he’s only a kid,” but parenting is hard work, even for the best of people, so I try to cut people a break and don’t assume straight off that they’re going to be one of “those” parents. Of course, once they’ve demonstrated that they are one of “those” parents, there goes my sympathy.
I do think that it’s too bad many people can’t seem to understand that the problem the CF community has with the pro-children aspects of the culture is less about the kids than it is about the parents. Specifically, parents who refuse to take responsibility for their choice to have kids and for the disturbances their kids can cause, and parents that demand special treatment and/or recognition for their “contribution” to society. Sorry, but I’m not considering little Johnny a contribution to anything until he’s demonstrated that he’s a productive member of his community.
And really, if society wants me to become a parent that badly, how about providing me with less examples of self-absorbed parents with undisciplined and rude kids, which at the moment are only contributing to the withering of my ovaries?
At least to that end, I appreciate this blog’s (and most of the commentors) attempts to keep the discussion civil and thoughtful, rather than devolving into an automatic anti-parent rant. Believe me, I’m grateful that there’s such a strong and vocal online CF community – the more people understand that parenthood is only one of the choices available, that they don’t necessarily have to become parents if they don’t really want to and that’s OK, the better, as far as I’m concerned.
M – at least you are thinking about it. And of one thing you can be sure of… you will have Kodak moments, but you will have many other moments that are very different from the Kodak moments. I believe my friends when they say no matter how prepared you think you are for a child you are never prepared. The honest parents will usually tell you the unvarnished truth… sound them out. And have a read of this post too… just for balance
http://thebritgirl.com/2009/01/13/the-truth-about-parenting-and-essential-reading-for-the-childfree/
Actually what’s most annoying to me is that instead of leaving us to our childfree-ness, parents take it upon themselves to start telling us what we should do with our lives – I.e have kids. Even though they don’t know a thing about you.
Britgirl -
I think anytime anyone starts telling you what she thinks you should do with your life regarding anything (“go to college!” “get married!” “have kids!”), even though she knows nothing about you, it’s bloody annoying. For people who are CF, I’d imagine that the constant barrage of “why can’t you have kids like everyone else (ie – be what’s considered normal)?!?” attitude goes from annoying to infuriating pretty fast, and for good reason. I’m not sure yet if being CF is for me, but every time I have someone tell me that I should have kids b/c I’ll be a good parent (because they assume that naturally my reluctance must stem from fear I won’t be a good parent, rather than just pure, honest ambivalence about whether or not I want to be one at all), I have to keep myself from yelling that my theoretical parenting skills are not the issue – I’m fairly sure I’d be a good parent if I chose to be one, but that doesn’t mean that I HAVE to become one.
By that same token however, I get equally as pissed when any of my CF friends explain the myriad of reasons why I shouldn’t want kids (and to be fair, they’re mostly very valid reasons) and imply that if I don’t agree, I’m just a foolish soon-to-be moo caving to societal pressure and worthy of pity at best and scorn at worst. I’ve had a some minor dust-ups resulting from my back going up because of that attitude – luckily, we’ve been able to work things out. I know those friends have gotten burned by losing previous friends to the cult of parenthood and don’t want to lose any more – I have really close friends of my own who’ve taken the plunge themselves and while I’m happy for them because I know it’s what they really want, I’m also scared that I still might lose them to the world of “parents only” – so I understand where my CF friends’ attitudes come from. All I can ask them is to have a little faith in me that if I do decide to become a mom, that I won’t ditch them or value their friendship any less because they don’t have kids, because I won’t. I’m not that kind of person, and I fully expect my friends to remind me of that if I do become a mom someday and need a refresher.
Which is a lot of the problem with the annoying smug parents, I think. People who become smug breeders who selfishly think that the world should revolve around them and their precious offspring, and that anyone who doesn’t do as they did is subhuman, tend to be people who were selfish and not good friendship material in the first place – it’s just that in some cases, their boorish behavior doesn’t become as immediately apparent until they become parents. It’s as if becoming a parent lets them off the leash, so to speak, and they don’t bother trying to curb personality traits that would previously have gotten them tossed out of their social circle because they think that as parents, they’re allowed to get away with anything.
People who are good friends, who accept and love you for both your differences and similarities with them, tend to be able to remain your friends, even if they have kids and you don’t. Of course the friendship alters – you’re not able to spend as much time with them as you used to, spontaneous outings are out of the question – but if they’re really good friends, then they’ll return the patience you’ve extended to them with their best efforts to maintain the strength of your friendship. If you’re ok with occasionally having the kid along when you meet for coffee, they’ll do their best to civilize the little beast; if not, they’ll get a babysitter and not make you feel guilty for it. At least that’s been my experience.
Ideally, there’d be a culture of mutual respect between people who choose parenthood and people who choose to be CF, as both do their parts to contribute to the health and well-being of their communities (again, ideally this would mean that people with kids acted as actual parents rather than thoughtless breeders and actually raised their kids instead of letting them run roughshod over adults). I agree that historically, the onus is on parents more than the CF to demonstrate that respect and goodwill. Hopefully blogs like this will help foster the open dialog between parents and CFers that will help nurture some kind of mutual understanding.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
@ M
“…I have really close friends of my own who’ve taken the plunge themselves and while I’m happy for them because I know it’s what they really want, I’m also scared that I still might lose them to the world of “parents only”
Sad to say it’s likely you will lose them to the world of parents if only because you and they will have very little in common after they become parents. Their kids – not what you have in common will take priority. So best to prepare for it and if it doesn’t happen and you stay close friends (i.e. they still have an interest in you as you – even if you don’t want kids) then good.
Who believe that a parent suddenly stopped to like travel, read books, feel unworried, sleep in on weekends..etc..etc.. Of course this is not true. They just made a choice to have a child and therefore they simply CANT go on like they used to. Some people deal with this better than others and probably produce the most healthy offspring.
The whining comes from jealousy because they see others who choose not to have kids.
I think the debate about the future of our universe is not very relevant. Who knows if there is a Supernova just around the corner. In addition, 6 billion years is a long time to think of regarding the lifespan of our own solar system. No human mind understands the universe. And where it all came from is beyond our comprehension. Its easier to make judgements on what we do understand. For example that our planet is overpopulated and that its maybe one of the biggest challenges we have, at least in my opinion.
Raising children isn’t easy, but nothing worthwhile is easy. If you want something worthwhile in life, you are gonna have to work hard at it. Having children is one of the most joyful things you will ever experience – tough, yes….rewarding, absolutely….
@ Keith: I’m a nurse and to quote Chris, it’s tough but very worthwhile and rewarding. Does that mean I think everyone should be a nurse? No. That would be illogical at best, downright disastrous at worst.
As for having children being one of the most joyful things you experience, good for you but clearly not everyone feels the same. I’ve taken care of children who have been abused by the very people they are supposed to be safe with – yeah, their parents.
I roll my eyes any time a parent spouts condescending phrases like “nothing worthwhile is easy”, etc. It seems to imply that a) being a parent is the most worthwhile thing going and b) the childfree, by choosing not to carry out a basic biological function, are being judged and found lacking, as if they’re somehow incapable of doing anything worthwhile with their lives.
Children deserve first and foremost to be wanted. Why on earth would you ever try to convince someone who doesn’t want kids to do so?
Some parents have extremely difficult times with their children – through lack of support, financial problems, or because their child is extremely sick or disabled. It’s heartbreaking to read, for example, what parents of extremely autistic children go through. While they love their kids, it’s clearly not joyful and to maintain it is always so is to deny such people’s genuine experience.
Keith, things being worthwhile and rewarding is entirely subjective. To me, reading a book is both worthwhile and rewarding, to other people it isn’t. To me, at times playing video games is also worthwhile and rewarding. As has already been said, being a teacher, nurse, doctor, therapist, is all worthwhile and rewarding. Such people are caring and they want to touch many, many lives. That doesn’t mean that their lives in general are not worthwhile and are not rewarding just because they choose not to procreate. Nurses, teachers, doctors and many other types of role touch so very many lives for the better: often far more than they could if they had their own children.
Keith, by your reasoning, everyone should become a nurse simply because it’s a worthwhile and rewarding job. The same for other caring professions. But not everyone is suited to that. I couldn’t be a teacher, it is simply not within my capacity. It can be as rewarding as you like, in fact I know from other people that it is, like being a nurse, very rewarding and exceptionally worthwhile, but I know that I am not suited to it, nor would I cope with it. It’s the same with having children. I know I am not suited to it, nor could I cope with it. Knowing that is no different from knowing which jobs I could and could not do. Just because one person has done something, has enjoyed it, and has coped perfectly with it, does not mean that extends to other people. It makes no difference that procreating is in society’s reckoning, “natural” – caring for another person, as a nurse does, could be seen as “natural”, but not everyone is capable.
We’re all different. I am sure there are things which I have done and coped well with which you could not, simply because different people are suited to different things.
@Keith – is that what you tell parents when they are experiencing child-rearing as less than rewarding?It’s quite condescending. It assumes that no-one knows what is rewarding and worthwhile. And I bet not every parent (who may have bought into the “it’s all worthwhile”) finds finds it’s true. As others have said, what is worthwhile, rewarding or otherwise is subjective. And for some, having children just isn’t the most joyful experience they will ever experience.
So unless something is hard and looks miserable, it’s not worthwhile? I suppose I am going to go get a job cleaning sewers and sleep with deformed lepers, since that seems quite miserable, I mean, rewarding…
To Keith: I’m a teacher, which is also tough but very worthwhile & rewarding, but I certainly don’t think everyone should be a teacher. So while we CF may not choose to parent, we do choose to do other things that are both joyful and difficult. Parenting just does not happen to be one of those things.
Keith:
It sounds like you have the right attitude for parenting. I wish you all the happiness in the world.
But while you choose to spend your time and energy to raise a child others choose to spend their resources in other ways.
And wether you choose to reproduce or not; you still contribute to society and both choices will give advantages/disadvantages. Its a matter of personal choice.
Keith:
No one’s saying that you shouldn’t be a parent since it’s hard work – of course it is! Just like writing a book or studying law or creating your own company is hard work – but doing any of those things isn’t for everyone.
I’m not even sure if I want to have kids, but statements like “Of course parenting is hard work, but it’s the most rewarding and joyful thing in the world” automatically make me suspicious because it’s a blanket statement. Parenting is obviously joyful and rewarding for you, but what makes you so certain it’s going to be just as joyful and rewarding for me or anyone else? Just because someone chooses not to have kids does not mean that he or she will have a life that’s LESS rewarding or joyful; it just means that he or she has chosen to work hard at something that he or she finds joy and reward in and it’s not raising children. That choice is no more or less valid than yours was to become a parent.
Um, is Keith precisely the sort of contributor that is not welcome here? Doesn’t it say that people bleating about their brats should take all their excitement and fortune-cookie wisdom elsewhere?
“Not childfree? You’re welcome to comment, however understand that this isn’t the place to inform us about how wonderful parenting is or to wax lyrical about your kids,etc. “
caveat: when I say “families” in this post, I mean those that have children.
Keith, I was just about to respond to a comment that Britgirl quoted in her link. The one that says that “they” (meaning the childfree) mix with families and “make our lives miserable.”
You actually proved what I was going to say, that it is not US that mix with you parents, it is YOU PARENTS who insist on barging in to adults only areas and insisting on making it available for your spawn.
For the record: here in Dallas I cannot ask the make up of the residents in an apartment complex…and that includes families. It would be considered “discriminatory.” I can ask as a possible renter, but the management is not allowed to divulge that information. it was “suggested” to me that I go around to the cars and SUVs and count the number of h car seats. WTF?
What’s interesting is a CFer cannot find out information regarding the familial make up of a neighborhood to actually AVOID the “famblies,” yet most listings (either for properties that are for sale or lease) “boast” of the “great schools,” or “young families,” their communities have – all in an effort to attract FAMILIES.
Yet, if a company wanted to create an adult only community, the only real legal way of doing so it to create a retirement community and there is generally an age requirement of 65 years or older. We don’t intrude. We’d rather NOT intrude. Yet, we can’t find the information we need to STAY AWAY FROM you parents and your “famblies.”
Bit late on the uptake here, but I read this article last night and there was one item that struck a chord with me:
“Lui, who observes celebrity for a living, rejects what she sees as a pernicious retrograde swing back to the ’50s in which motherhood was celebrated as women’s highest calling. She points to actress Jennifer Garner remaining relevant in the celebrity press simply by being photographed with her two young daughters, and to Tori Spelling reclaiming her reputation after breaking up her current husband’s marriage by churning out bestsellers about motherhood. “Motherhood is the ultimate whitewash,” she says. “Steal someone’s husband, or be a drug addict, then become a mother and you’re redeemed.”
I think that Lui makes some very insightful observation. I find the swing back to the 50′s horrifying as well. Every reference to a woman in the media almost always includes motherhood. Evolve much? It thrills me to see that the women in their 20′s and early 30′s who read this blog do not take the bait.
And why is the act of procreation seen as one that obscures all other unflattering character traits or flaws? It is so illogical to me, I can’t even believe that people would be so gullible. Having sex and birthing a baby does not make you a good person. That’s pretty obvious. As Lui said, you can be a criminal but if you have kids to some people that transforms your heart into gold.
It’s clear that some of the mom trolls that visit this board and make ad hominem attacks on total strangers are pretty low on the milk of human kindness, yet they act as if performing a biological function places them on a moral high ground.
OH MY GOD I PUSHED A BOWLING BALL OUT OF MY ASS AND NOW IM FFL( FAT FOR LIFE)! I kid you not i was in Starbucks today and this girl comes in that used to work there and she had gained about 80 pounds from her bowling ball. She used to be my size but now i just feel sorry for her. Anyway the guy she was with clearly had another one from another relatioship and im standing there like: Oh ok yeah if it didnt work out with her mom(he had a duaghter) what in the hell makes you think it will work for you? i swear i just dont get these self centered people. When i but things i try to keep the earth in mind: i buy as many recycled and renewable resources as possible. You know it really is too bad that kids and future kids have to look at things like the JAPANESE TRASH from the tsunami they had. I just think to myself yep all those kids have to look at that in the future.Its a shame what we are doing to this planet and im glad no future kids of mine will have to see it— although my sisters kids will! IT HAS TO GO SOMEPLACE AND IT IS NOT GOING AWAY!
The reason it is not going away is cause there are refridgerators in that pile and there is food in those refidgerators and there is going to be water borne illness that is going to travel from it——and it will spread from the west caost to the east coast in 3-5 days(im just guessing here). I pity people with kids so bad no wait i dont you did it to yourselves.
And the rest of us!