Childfree? Noisy Kids Upstairs? You May Be Asked to Suck it Up
Britgirl | October 12, 2009 | 10:02 pmMy thanks to a reader, (let’s call her “Sally”) who sent in this very interesting article and link. As the Sally says, it’s probably not unique to the childfree.
I’ve made few if any changes to it because it didn’t need any changes. So anyone who thinks it’s “whining” just look away now and don’t read on.
I also read the article at the link below. And what I will say is this:
I was brought up in an apartment. We were six kids. The walls were pretty thick. But my parents were ALWAYS mindful of the neighbours – and as such if we were rowdy we got a telling off and were told to stop being noisy. None of this “be tolerant cause children need to be children rubbish.” What the..? Neighbours have every right to peace and quiet and you, dear parent, are responsible for seeing your kids understand that and abide by it. Of course that means you must be willing to control, sorry parent them since kids go as far as they are allowed to go. If you can’t or won’t, move out and get a house. Apartments are not for everyone. They are for those who accept that everyone has the right to a peaceful abode.
I am thankful I live in a condo now where it looks like there are no kids. We’ve lived here for 5 years. If there are any kids they are very quiet as we never hear them. So everyone’s happy. I must add we do have strict noise controls in the condo rules. Everyone signs up to them and our property manager takes all complaints very seriously. I just don’t understand people who seem to think everything should be relegated to the whim of kids’ noise. Having kids is not the benchmark for “tolerance” and said “tolerance” is often a thinly-veiled order to “suck it up, buttercup – not our fault you’re childfree.”
Anyway, enough from me… for now. Read what Sally says and share your thoughts.
Sally’s story starts here:
“My husband and I live in a brownstone condo in NYC. With the exception of the nutters who moved in with their screaming child and then moved out within nine months, for six years we have enjoyed a blissfully quiet, childfree existence neighbor-wise.
That is until one month ago. A family with a toddler moved into the unit above us
and as God is my witness it sounds like a herd of buffalo up there. Their child seems to be possessed by the devil as he cannot walk, but only runs back and forth and back and forth on HARD WOOD FLOORS, dropping his little toys, which are
made of cement, as he goes.
This fun fest starts at 7 a.m. and continues to 8 p.m. when they put him to bed. I work from home and my quality of life has plummeted. I’m so stressed I can barely focus and I feel like I’m being held hostage by a three year old.
To make matters far worse, Ms. stay-at-home mom has her girlfriends over EVERY afternoon from 2 until 5 pm and they brings their kids who also run around, scream and drop things.
Yesterday there were FOUR strollers in the hallway. I honestly thought my head was going to explode
from the noise. I mean it’s not like there aren’t at least ten coffee shops within two blocks from our building, yet they must turn our building into a daycare center. GET A LIFE!!!
Because we are civilized human beings, last week we left them a VERY nice note introducing ourselves and explaining about the lack of soundproofing in pre-war buildings and how the running shakes our entire apartment. We asked if they would be kind enough to put down rugs and rug pads to absorb the shock on the hard wood floors. When we moved in our downstairs neighbor mentioned that she could hear our cat running up and down, so we put down thick pads and thick rugs in the main rooms, including the kitchen because we are not jackasses. And I can say with a great degree of confidence that a 10 lb. cat makes far less noise than a 3 year old human.
In our case we have been ignored by our neighbors and now we have to take on a battle royale. I’m sure that because it’s a child making the noise they think we should just suck it up–because that’s how kids are. Or they’ll label us child-haters or worse. To me, noise is noise and I don’t care who is making it–
but I certainly don’t think you should get a free pass because it’s a kid. I see this as just another example
of the entitled parent phenom. We actually pay more than they do to live here, but yet because they
have a poor harmless child, in their minds, their rights supersede ours. They moved into a quiet building with
an existing community of quiet owners and apparently we must accommodate them. So now we either move, which
means selling which could take months and taking a loss in a crappy market or we sue or we report them to the city. In any case, it will be a major stress fest on both sides and undoubtedly unpleasant all because they can’t put down carpet and tell little Johnny to walk instead of run. GRRRRR.
In my desperation to find a solution, I discovered this older article in the New York Times which
I thought you might find interesting and may be relevant to some of your readers. Because now all the young parents
want to maintain their edgy NYC persona they refuse to move out to the suburbs, even though it would
actually be better for their children because they would have space to run around. I don’t know what it is
like in Canada or London but as you can read in the article, children are becoming one of the most frequent cause of noise complaints in NYC. In a very noisy city, that is a pretty frightening development.
I particularly enjoyed (sarcasm) the comment by the mother in the article who said that being a parent makes you more sensitive and understanding. As childfree we hear that all the time, but I’ve never heard it applied in this context. I think my situation is a perfect example of how truly selfish people with children can be. Because really in what way is she sensitive if she doesn’t understand how she is disturbing her neighbors and that they have
rights too? I know that she means that another mother would understand that life isn’t always perfect and kids will be kids. But as is clear in the case outlined in the article, she is not being particularly sensitive or tolerant of her neighbors who chose to not have children and have different kinds of lives. Her sensitivity extends to her offspring. Oh, how very self-sacrificing!! In my mind that doesn’t really count.What would be self-sacrificing would be if she said, “Hmmm, because I have a child maybe I can’t live in a charming pre-war brownstone because of the type of architecture used to construct these buildings since my son runs around like a demented and evil Chuckie doll every day and I have no intention of controlling his behavior or actually parenting him.” Instead, I’ll make my neighbors sacrifice for a child that is not theirs! Awesome!!
Plus, I can GUARANTEE that if she had someone above her waking up her little darling from his nap with blasting hip-hop music her tolerance and sensitivity would undoubtedly be imperceptible to the offending party. I would also bet if she couldn’t earn a living because she couldn’t concentrate in her own home, she would probably feel remarkably less sensitive about noisy children.
While my comments and this article may be construed as “whining” by at least one of your readers, it was on my mind today 
and I wanted to share the story with you as yet another way those with children try to get over on the childfree.
Sorry for the rant and thank you so much for listening and for all that you do!”
Sally’s story ends here.
Thanks to “Sally” for both sharing – and writing this article. It must be a nightmare situation to be in.
Here’s the article link – I read the article: The noise children make is a growing source of complaints
And here’s the comment from the West Side Mother:
“I think you become a more sensitive person when you have a kid — you have to become more tolerant and understanding,” the Upper West Side mother said. “You kind of realize that life is not as tidy as you’d like it to be.”
My response to that? You don’t need to have a kid to be tolerant and understanding. And frankly I find it neither tolerant nor understanding if you expect other people to live with noise created by your offspring. My own parents never thought their kids had the right to disturb others just because we were kids.
What are your thoughts? As always feel free to share on the blog.
Wow, I am in shock at the entitled attitude of parents! It’s ridiculous! So, just because you want to live in the city with sprog, you can’t be bothered to put down thick rugs or not let your offspring rampage around the apartment? Bleah!
I live in a townhouse, and have noisy, noisy people on either side. I’ve believed for a long time that because my husband and I make almost no noise, both sets of neighbors don’t really have any concept of how much noise they make. On the side with the harridan single mum with the noisy child, we’ve had to have “discussions” a few times.
I was lucky to catch a local lawyer on TV one day answering a question about noise and neighbors–he said that everyone is entitled to enjoy the peace and quiet of their home, and that while you have to be understanding of temporary issues like renovations and things, if someone is ruining your enjoyment of your home, they have to stop. That empowered me a little when it came to talking to the neighbors about their lack of awareness. Harridan mum once actually mounted surround sound speakers on the shared-party wall, causing hours of vibration and more than a few headaches before yet another discussion. It stopped, but only because I think she has fun complaining about us to the (also childfree) people who live on the other side of her.
I really, really feel for Sally and her husband. The law has got to be on their side–if the parents of the noisy tot were a pair of frat boys who threw parties all night, she would be within her rights to demand to enjoy her home, and the same should still apply here. Her building’s management needs to be the bad guy, especially since Sally and her husband have tried in good faith to be pleasant about their disrupted home life. The neighbors making the noise should bear the burden of soundproofing.
Yes I know all about it too. In our block, the mum in the adjacent flat has two toddlers who shout and scream when they’re being herded up and down the stairwell. Every single sound echoes through the building. Why can’t this woman teach her brats to speak rather than scream? One of these days….
And I’m always holding the door open for them and smiling and being polite. It’s just a matter of time before I tell this bitch what I think of her parenting skills…
I had an experience almost exactly like this, only the kid in question was six, not three. When my husband and I got married, we spent our first year of marriage in another city so that I could get my Masters degree. Our first home was an apartment and there lived a couple on the floor above us with said six-year-old. For whatever reason, the kid was not in school, and from morning to night he would run and scream and jump off of their furniture. He pounded our ceiling so bad that our pictures would often go askew and dishes would rattle on our countertops. This happened Every. Single. Day.
There were two parks about a five-minute walk away each. Mom and Dad never got off their asses to let their little beast outside.
My husband sometimes went up to ask politely for them to be a little bit quieter. The Dad would just reply, “What do you want me to do? Tie him up?” Actually, YES! That would have been great! The parents did nothing to calm their hellspawn down, so we went to the building manager who made some halfhearted phone calls to them. They never listened and there was no repurcussion.
Our solution was to move across the country when my degree was done. To this day, even with two noisy neighbors on both sides of my condo (loud stereos; both are partiers) nothing has been as terrible as that kid at our first home. Interestingly enough, there is one perk from living beneath that brat – when I moved in, I was a fencesitter. When I moved out, I was staunchly childfree!
Several years ago, I dated a guy who lived in a pre-war building in Boston. In the apartment above his was a small family, including a 3 year old who would pound from one end of the apartment to the other from 6am until 8pm, usually dropping (or more likely tossing, from the sound of it) toys to the hardwood floor with a loud BANG at regular intervals. My then-boyfriend and his roommate tried politely asking the couple to keep the noise level down, especially since the roommate did a lot of work at home (musician – he worked on a keyboard but always with headphones to keep the noise down and he STILL head the little demon upstairs). No dice – the family was pretty rude about letting the “kid be a kid” but come 8pm, if there was ANY hint of noise from the downstairs apartment, the couple raised hell because their kid’s bedtime couldn’t be interrupted. One day, the roommate got so fed up that he figured out the path the kid was running upstairs, got a broomstick, and at the moment the kid ran overhead, thumped the end of the broom right under the kid and scared the living daylights out of him – when mom came down to complain, the roommate calmly said that he wouldn’t do it again as long as the kid kept it down. This little tug of war went on for 6 months until the family moved out at what I assume was the end of their lease.
Parents who expect their apartment neighbors to suck it up and deal with the noise created by their kids are unbelievably rude, in my opinion. My parents had no problem with letting me be a kid, but they were also very big on teaching me common courtesy, as in how to be considerate of other people because I was not the center of the universe. We lived in a nice sized house, but even then there was no screaming or hellspawn behavior allowed because I did not have the house to myself, I had parents working in the kitchen or study or playing on the piano and such behavior would have been RUDE and irritating even to them! As a result, I’ve got very little tolerance for parents who expect me to put up with the shrieking and banging of their child in the close quarters of an apartment building. I don’t put up with noisy frat boys or other rude adults, so why should the expectation of behavior be any different with kids, especially since their parents are responsible for at least attempting to control their behavior?
Not to mention, becoming a parent does not automatically make you a more compassionate human being than people who aren’t parents. What kind of self-indulgent justification tripe is that?!? You don’t need kids to teach you that life isn’t as tidy as you’d like it to be – plain old living as a human being will teach you that (also, cats – clean up after your first hairball and life will NEVER look tidy to you again). Wherever that NYC mom moved, I feel sorry for her neighbors – even if it’s in the suburbs, they’ll have to put up with whatever racket the kid gets up to in the yard no matter what.
“I think you become a more sensitive person when you have a kid — you have to become more tolerant and understanding,” the Upper West Side mother said. “You kind of realize that life is not as tidy as you’d like it to be.”
My response to that is: “Great. YOUR life is not as tidy as you’d like but mine is just as tidy as I’d like. And my tidy life is quiet and peaceful.”
I have friends (childfree couples both) who had children move in (or were born) next door. Both said something along the lines of ….”well, I guess it’s time to move….”
Oh my God. This is one reason why I will NEVER live in a condo complex. Not that it’s perfect when you live on a quiet cul-de-sac in suburbia, where one set of neighbours have kids who have to scream the entire time they’re on the trampoline, the other set lets their kids use my driveway as a bike park, and the guy at the end of the street has a meltdown every time you drive in and out because “my kid is outside! Slow down!” When you’re driving 20 “eyeroll”
I agree to a point with “kids will be kids”, but parents need to be parents. If people complain to you, buy some rugs, and try to teach the kid to walk a bit quieter and not throw things. Kids are actually pretty smart if you couch it right, and it’s not really that hard.
If I had neigbours like Sally’s, and they did nothing about their hellspawn, then I’d have the surround sound on my stereo cranked until 10pm every night, and I’be be banging utensils in the kitchen on my way to the gym at 5.15am. Quid pro quo. If you’re nice to others, they’re usually nice back. But piss them off, and look out. And then parents wonder why “everyone hates them”. Bleargh.
The lawyer was perfectly right about the statute of “quiet use and enjoyment”. It’s just a shame that nobody in a position of power will get off their asses to do anything about it.
if you would like the powers that be to do something about it… come up with a great idea for WHAT to do. I disagree with children being loud to the point of being rude… but that learning curve depends on age and ability. Unless we mandate laws to round up noisy children, bad parents, and fund homes for them… get out your sound proofing, because they aren’t going to, and whining gets you no where.
Sally should make some noise too! Something that would still be legal, but really really annoying. Maybe play loud music from 8-11 pm. (Or have loud porn on when the upstairs neighbor and her girlfriends are around!)
When I was a kid my parents had an issue with a 20 year old neighbor’s super loud punk music. My dad tried talking to him several time, but it did not help.
So one day my dad decided to play some really loud classical music for an hour or two. When neighbors complained to us he told them it was temporary and necessary to explain proper behavior to the punk. And it worked.
Currently I live in a condo too and it’s OK, but what bugs me is the smoker upstairs whose smoke drifts into the condo…but at least there are no kids.
Just found this website today after googling for advice about noisy brats in an apartment building, and I’d like to say THANK YOU for having such a blog for those who have to put up with entitled parents (until I have the money to buy a house with lots of land around it!). A few weeks after I moved in next door, I very nicely asked my neighbour to try and keep her kids quieter in the halls (a few times every day they run and scream and bang up and down the hallway while waiting for the elevator). And for a little while she went “shhh” to her kids but of course that did nothing. Now she just says in a mocking tone “that’s too loud” when she walks past my door. I’m home a lot as I’m looking for work and waiting to start volunteering.
I feel sorry for Sally-her neighbours are way worse than mine. Especially the fact that the mom has her little parties with other stepfords, eek. I understand kids make noise and are learning. I get it. But what bugs me is when parents don’t even TRY to quiet their kids down. I honestly don’t know how they put up with that kind of screaming and banging.
Re: this comment in the New York Times article:
“Indeed, the vast majority of child-noise complaints are said by those called to intervene to be lodged by neighbors with no children or grown children. Trouble also tends to flare when a family replaces an especially quiet resident, when renovations render layouts incongruent (so that a hallway now runs over a bedroom, for example), and when neighbors have different sleeping schedules.”
I’m not sure what the reporter was implying here, but it seems to me that other people with small, out of control children are not very likely to complain as their offspring are probably torturing someone on either side or below them. I think it is rather telling that even neighbors with grown children can’t stand the noise of small children.
As far as people in the article who say their kids have a right to be kids….that’s crap. That only applies it they aren’t interfering with another person’s right to enjoy their home. The same way a musician has a right to be a musician or an opera singer has a right to be an opera singer or an audiophile has a right to be an audiophile as long as what they do around that right in their home doesn’t bother their neighbors.
Most people who buy in NYC pay a ridiculous sum of money for not a very large amount of space. To assume that anyone is going to take kindly to sinking a small fortune into an apartment that becomes uninhabitable due to noise from children is some sort of self-righteous, not to mention delusional, fantasy. And for those who purchased and are now being faced with fines from co-op boards because of their kids noise, I have two words for you su-burbs! You can get a whole lot more for your money outside the city than inside including something known as a YARD. Could it be that they just don’t want to be inconvenienced by commuting or losing access to their cultural activities? Boo-hoo!
Oh, and by the way, for those who just can’t separate from urban life there are many buildings in NYC that have play rooms on the ground floor for children to run around in to their hearts content. The truth is there are a lot of people who have no business calling themselves parents because they don’t want to establish boundaries for their spawn’s behavior. I see their lack of interest in parenting every day–on the street, on the subway, in restaurants, movie theaters and shops—you name it. It’s not just about them not wanting to manage their kids in their apartments they don’t want to manage them anywhere. It just so happens in an apartment they have a captive audience as witness to their child or children’s repetitive bad behavior who can hold them responsible whether they like it or not.
I grew up on a 3000 acre farm, with a garden that it takes twenty minutes to walk the circumference of. However, NEVER were we allowed to scream, anywhere, unless there was some kinds of immediate danger. This was because our parents didn’t want us screaming and yelling when we were around people, so they taught us to behave at home.
I’m fortunate in that the noisiest thing I have to put up with at home is the ravens. There are kids next door who scream and yell when they play on the trampoline but it’s always in the middle of the day and only for an hour at the most – no big drama and I actually like it because it sounds like they’re having fun – I think it’s nice to hear kids enjoy themselves (within reasonable noise limits).
Were I in a situation like Sally’s I’d definitely be developing a deep passion for Marilyn Manson and porn around about the 8pm mark.
I live in Germany whixh seems to become more kid-centric by the day. Recently I saw a news programme that reported about a case in Berlin. A day care center for children had to move out, becasue the neighbors had sued about the noise level and won. The court ruled that children’s noise is to be treated like every other noise, i.e. the decibels count. Apparently that was a bad thing because this news prgram featured it as being a case of “child hating”, lack of tolerance, etc. Now the state of Berlin has pronounced a law according to which children’s noise is generally always to be tolerated. That’s being celebrated as “Child-friendly” and they hope that other states will follow their example. So, apparently in the future we (people in general, that is, I personally am lucky to live in a quiet, almost childfree neigbourhood) will have to put up with screaming and bumping of children 24/7. Fuck people who need to concentrate, work or just want a little bit of quiet. Fuck the elderly, too (can you imagine a day care center or obnoxious parents moving next to a nursing home, and nobody will have the right to complain). And it will increase the already unbearable sense of entitlement of certain parents. That just makes me insane with anger, especially considering the fact that we, the childfree, are already paying more in taxes and as a thank you we get insults hurled at us by the media and politicians (the “selfish” bingo – you’ll all be familiar with it) and currently they are thinking about punishing us even more, by drastically reducing our pension entitlements/making us pay more social security contributions, and there are even suggestions to give parents in elections one additional vote per child. How sick is that?
So, I am so glad I found this blog. Thank you for your thoughful interesting articles, and thank you all for making me feel less alone in this crazy world.
Wow!
That sounds awful, I never knew Germany had such weirdness going on…the extra vote per child thing is extra ridiculous! Hope it never happens…
Germany is normally so sensible with things like that – this really surprises me. I’m sure they will soon realise that the people who breed the most are usually from lower socio economic backgrounds and giving more votes to a part of society that is likely to be less educated is not a good idea!
I’d be furious if that sort of thing came into effect in Australia (but to be honest, not that surprised).
No in Germany we have the so called Mittagsruhe (Midday rest). From 12-3 pm it has to be quiet… no cutting grass, loud music etc etc. as well as from 10pm till 6am.. Nachtruhe (night rest) So you can complain about loud noise.. People usually do not complain about babies and toddler, since every person with a brain knows they can’t be controlled at all times. But they will complain about older kids and loud noise in general!!
@ Lee and a few others: Exactly. I’m a singer and everytime I move, I go to extreme lengths to find a place where I won’t disturb my neighbours with my ‘noise-making’. No, it’s not noise to me either, the way screaming children don’t seem to be to parents, but unlike some parents I wouldn’t think of imposing myself upon other people. It takes noticeably more effort to find somewhere that’s appropriate – but as has been said, that’s common courtesy. Plus: you avoid having to deal with complaints. So these types of parents must actually think they have a god-given right to annoy the hell out of other people.
@Nicole–When I read the first part of your post, I was impressed by the common sense of the judge who ruled that noise is about decibels. Then I became immediately sickened by the law passed deeming noise from children A-OKAY. Is it really that hard to comprehend that when people are disturbed by sound, they don’t really care what the source is? I’m sure some people who have noisy upstairs neighbors may not even know whether or not it is children making the noise until they investigate. As you pointed out, the reason politicians, media and parents make it about “hating children’” is because it is easier to vote against those who want peace if you divide and demonize, characterizing them as heartless or inhuman. We know it’s not about hating children, it’s about having the right not to listen to anyone outside of your home who is making life inside of your home a living hell.
If laws are going to be passed, why not pass laws that state families must only occupy bottom floors in buildings? Stack families on top of families and let them spread the love of stomping and shrieking amongst each other. Why won’t states do that? Because landlords, management companies and owners only care about getting in warm bodies with sufficient financial resources to cover mortgage or rent payments and would never tolerate any restriction, and would undoubtedly label it as discriminatory practice. Many of these developers/owners who would probably never dream of designating only certain floors of their buildings as family friendly interestingly also cut corners with sound proofing as was pointed out in the NYTimes article. They are essentially knowingly creating a potentially explosive situation for occupants of the building. How about passing some laws about sound proofing? Again, real estate developers (who typically have very deep pockets) would lobby against any type of building codes being passed requiring them to thoroughly sound proof multiple family dwellings since that would cost them money and they can fill their units anyway and let the occupants be damned. Most people would rather move than sue a developer or management company. If you are a renter and do vacate because of noise, depending on where you live, how the laws of constructive eviction apply, how you manage the situation and how douche-y the management company is you can be sued by the building owner for breaking the lease and be required to keep making payments until they fill the apartment.
Re: The law in Berlin, do you think it was passed because of declining birth rates in northern Europe? Trying to say, “please have babies, the state supports you!” If Germany is running low on children, we have the Quiverfull movement here in the U.S. of A. whose members are reproducing at an alarming rate so that their offspring can save the world from the morally bankrupt. To which I say, save yourselves!
When we were little, my father worked on a rotating shift schedule- one week days, one week afternoons, one week nights. We learned very quickly to play silently in the house whenever he was sleeping during our play times, and it wasn’t that hard. I don’t believe for a second that parents are incapable of quieting their kids down; it’s just a question of willpower and being…well, parents.
We moved out of our condo 5 months ago for a lot of reasons, but one was that a school colleague of mine lived down the hall and I got sick of her son screaming and racing down the hallway at all hours. It made the dog go crazy and drove me mad, and I haven’t regretted the move once. So much nicer in a house…
-AM
Here’s another condo dweller with a similar problem. Interesting to read the comments from the parents. They seem to be split about 50/50–those who think their children should be controlled and those who don’t….
http://www.brownstoner.com/forum/archives/2009/09/running_child.php
@ Lee: yeah, it seems to be all about sinking birth rates. Aside from the fact that that is not necessarily a bad thing (hello, overpopulation, depletion of ressources…) it’s lacking common sense to assume children eual future tax and social security contribution payers. People with jobs are the ones paying, not just for retired people but also FOR CHILDREN, so the lack of children also takes away some of the financial burden. Also, where is the guarantee that the children of today will have jobs tomorrow??? Like there’s no such thing as unemployment… or kids growing up to turn into criminals, drug addicts or SAHMS… The sickening thing is that they use that whole issue as an excuse to cut down even more social security benefits, à la “Sorry, we can’t afford it any onger, cause there are not enough children anymore…” Also, the demographic structure they present as ideal – you know, the pyramid with lots of young and few old people – presents a situation where people had no long life expectancy and many died young, a lot of them even as chidren. Is this what they want? I suppose it’s easier to bash the childless/childfree rather than saying “Sorry folks, you just live too long. Could you all please kindly commit suicide at age 65?” What I don’t understand is: I know the childfree are discriminated against in many, if not all countries, in terms of tax burden and the like. But despite the fact that many European countries face sinking birth rates, nowhere are the childfree being bashed so bady (see, lower pension entitlements and other ideas to “Punish” them). Only in Germany. Why is that? I suppose, that’s quality “Made in Germany” for you: if we do something, we do it RIGHT! No pissing about, rather going all the way…
@emma23miller I know, it’s horrendous. It’s undemocratic on so many levels. Not just because of some persons having more votes than others but also I wonder: what if the parents have different political viewpoints: who gets the child(ren)s vote(s)? I have a sneaking feeling that it should probably be the father, cause most of these people do not only want people to have children, they are also clearly in favour of a traditional family structure, i.e. the male breadwinner and the housewife and mother… And it’s also wrong to assume that the children automatically share their parents politcal views (once they’re old enough to have a proper opinion, of course). As a teenager, I certainly would NOT have wanted my father to vote in my name!
Hello from Russia!
Can I quote a post in your blog with the link to you?
Despite the fact that I hate living with my MIL right now, this is one of the things I’m dreading about moving into an apartment. Kids living next to me, above me or below me. To bad it’s illegal to have childfree apartment complexes.
My sympathy goes to Sally!
Tricia: “I live in a townhouse, and have noisy, noisy people on either side. I’ve believed for a long time that because my husband and I make almost no noise, both sets of neighbors don’t really have any concept of how much noise they make”…
I have really wondered about the same plenty of times. I even invited my neighbor to my home so he could hear for himself how the noise was heard through the walls (from his super-woofer-stereo). Did it make any change…? Guess twice…I finally moved. Whats wrong with people? Could some parents also show the same tolerance towards others as they expect for themselves and their kids?
Recently UN declared overpopulation as the greatest problem we face at present and in nearest future. Predicted total population is to be 9 billions in 2050. Yes, more people…just what we need…or what??
There was a kid in my apartment building who cried constantly. The racket would be more annoying at night, as the kid would start crying after 11:00 PM. I left notes, and I know others complained to management, but nothing happened. I don’t hear the kid now because it’s older and has seemingly grown out of its crying stage.
The situation described in the post happens too often, even in buildings where there are strict rules against disturbing the peace. Calls to the police, especially when management won’t address the problem, might embarrass clueless/thoughtless parents into being considerate of other tenants. If one really wants to be mean, hints that the kid(s) may be victims of abuse or neglect will cause extra trouble for the parents when the cops show up.
First of I have 2 children, whom I teach to respect others property and lifestyles. To be understanding and mindful. Now you can’t tell a baby to stop crying in the middle of the night and so for people to complain about that, is just ridiculous. And you can’t control toddlers at all times. But with older children you can try to minimize the ruckus. In their case it would have been respectful to put down some carpets go out to the playground at let the kid run off his energy. Or do it like me and have the “no running, jumping and screaming inside” rule, even now that we have an own house and I do not have to worry about others. For loud they can go outside. I also don’t tolerate screaming their heads off outside. You can’t hold a child back from normal play, why would I? But the saying a child will be a child is true. No kid is perfect or can be controlled at all times. So be understanding that from time to time they do holler and make noise, for whatever reason. Just as we are (or should be!!) understanding about your parties till 5 am or loud music during nap time from time to time. We should try to help each other out. But people in general are just selfish. Not just parents or just single people.
Laura, I think that it is wonderful, that you are a parent who is respectful of your neighbors around noise. Can you spread the word?
I didn’t grow up in an apartment, but I did have five brothers and sisters and we were not allowed to run in the house, period, end of story. Any signs of flaring hyper-activity and we were directed outside to run it off.
As a childfree person, I also respect my neighbors which is why I don’t play my stereo loud (ever) and we’ve never had a loud party. I just got into the habit of living in such a way that what I do won’t interfere with another person’s life. As Britgirl pointed out, anyone who chooses to live in an apartment should do that with the understanding that there are neighbors above and below and on either side who have a right to be comfortable in their homes. I also think most reasonable people understand that within close quarters there will be noise from time to time. That’s the price of living in an urban area. Before my husband and I moved in together he would visit in my building which was all single people in their late twenties/early thirties. One night about 4 am my upstairs neighbor came in after having a few pops and blasted his stereo at top decibels. After about one hour, my then boyfriend/now husband went upstairs and knocked on the door, neighbor opened the door, looked sheepish and turned down the stereo and we never heard it again. No hard feelings, no problem. Another neighbor who would occasionally have cocktail parties would give everyone in the building a head’s up and/or invite them to join in the festivities–thoughtful, empathic, neighborly behavior.
I would tend to agree with you that some people are just selfish and if the brownstoner post is any representation of how the split is in the general population, I’d say it’s about 50/50 selfish versus non-selfish. There are those who think they are king of their castle, even if that castle is a sub-unit within a larger castle. As the saying goes, what goes around comes around and for those who choose to ignore the sufferings of their neighbors one day they will have a rude, noisy neighbor above, below or next to them that will serve to enlighten.
Just wanted to add that in NYC, there is a law that 90% of floor must be covered. There are also rules/laws within Co-op, Condo buildings re: noise. In some co-op buildings you will be required to put in adequate soundproofing at your expense if it is deemed by the board that your lifestyle, whatever that may be, is negatively impacting someone else. Because in a co-op people own shares in the building–everyone owns a bit of each apartment so everyone has a say as to what can take place in that space.
Reading this and thinking over my own experiences with neighbors makes me wish that laws would permit rental buildings to be designated as ‘family’ or ‘childfree’ buildings. Or perhaps a better division would be ‘quiet’ and ‘not quiet’, so that the party people can keep the screaming children company. As long as both types of buildings existed, I can’t see how it would be discriminatory…and it would make living in an urban environment a whole lot nicer for everyone. Those who enjoy quiet would have quiet, and those who prefer noisy activities won’t get a lot of notes and police visits initiated by their neighbors who want quiet. Unfortunately, the only childfree buildings I’ve seen are assisted living apartments that you have to be 65+ to get into.
Either you are CF or a parent there are some common rules when it comes to respect the people around you. I really wonder what goes on in the head of the IDIOT who plays music for the whole neighborhood. At the same time I wonder what goes on in the head of the IDIOT who allows the kids to play soccer in the corridor early Sunday morning. Its called common sense and parents are responsible so their kids behave according to this!
Social comments and analytics for this post…
This post was mentioned on Twitter by rhelune: Childfree? Noisy Kids Upstairs? You May Be Asked to Suck it Up http://tr.im/BCP8 #childfree…
Yes Luker–and as someone pointed out in the brownstoner link and thread–the same guy who didn’t give a crap about whether his loud stereo was disturbing his neighbors when he was single is the same guy who doesn’t care if his kids disturb his neighbors and won’t put down floor coverings when he is a father. Children are blank slates, they either learn to behave from their parents or they don’t. They can’t be expected to establish their own boundaries–that is why parenting requires work and sometimes isn’t fun. And as was also indicated in that link/ thread and I mentioned before, some parents obviously do think they can keep their children quiet and make efforts to do so and also think that parents who say they can’t or don’t want to are spouting bs. They don’t want to be forced to choose between being good parents or good neighbors–as per NY Times. How does not establishing boundaries for your children make you a good parent exactly? May I suggest that by being a good parent, you will also be a good neighbor. And for those not wanting to choose….where does that leave the rest of us who want to have peace in our homes that we pay for just like they do? Someone please explain…..
The attitude of parental entitlement means that they and their kids will always come before anyone else. And children who grow up in that environment, nine times out of ten will turn into adults no one else wants to be around. Yay! Job well done!
I find it hard to understand how anyone can justify disturbing someone else’s peace of mind with noise that comes from within their own four walls. I feel the same whether this is via a noisy stereo and thumping beat or an incessantly crying baby. Make all the noise you want in your own home… as long as it doesn’t impinge on someone else. What gets me – and what comes across in the NYT article is that because it’s a baby or a child that somehow they are entitled to make a noise and disturb others – because they are kids – and that rather than complaining the person being disturbed by said noise should put up or shut up. After all, the thinking generally goes, if you have kids you’d understand, they are being kids. And if you don’t, well, too bad.
To me that’s BS. The odd time one can understand. Let’s even suppose that some aren’t aware of the noise disturbance being produced by their offspring. But once they are advised of it, which is usually after the noise has occurred a few times in succession, the noise should cease… in that something tangible should be done. It comes down to respect for others to enjoy peace and quiet in their own homes. Simple as that. Kudos to parents that do make an effort – although I must say that no amount of being unable to keep a baby quiet is going to help me if I have to suffer the incessant crying. But I suspect those parents who are aware and do something are not the problem… it’s the others who think they are entitled.
The solution there is: 1). the noise source should soundproof their apartment so the noise doesn’t get out or 2) move somewhere else, like a house. Sadly it often ends up that the person being inconvenience has to move because they just can’t take it any more.
It’s time this type of noise was taken seriously – I actually think it’s damaging to one’s overall health. And for that reason people on the receiving end should complain until something is done if they possibly can. i think unless we complain, know our rights and insist on them, we’ll always be the losers.
Bottom line – as said, it’s more a case of people not caring if others get disturbed by their noise. If parents can’t keep their kids from crying incessantly who else will? I don’t buy it… my parents made sure we didn’t disturb and had respect for the neighbours and we were 6 kids!
In our Toronto condo everyone has to sign up to the condo rules. As it happens the walls are quite thick and noise rarely travels, but even so rules are there. Renovations are allowed only btw 9.30 and 5pm on weekdays only, and on weekends thumping beats have to go off at 1 am. And if there are complaints our condo management takes them seriously and offenders are given warnings if they persist. We pay a little more to live where we do, but it’s well worth it. Living with constant noise from other apartments would drive me nuts.
Thanks everyone for the great comments and sharing here – thanks to the parents as well for chiming in… it’s really interesting to see what people do actually live with on a daily basis.
It’s interesting in reading some of the comments in the brownstoner thread, how some people perceive reality. For instance, the suggestion that the person suffering from the noise should apologize for being confrontational to the noise-maker, (how was she/he confrontational?) to getting to know the neighbors and liking them and then the noise won’t bother as much and/or the noisemakers will be more willing to tone it down. HUH?! How often does it happen that one develops a fondness for someone who is torturing them on a daily basis, even assuming that they may have other redeeming qualities? Pretty rare, I would imagine. And why should you have to win over someone to get them to stop being inconsiderate. What a bizarre and completely narcissistic view of the world. Wouldn’t a decent person automatically be concerned that they were bothering their neighbors?
I also noticed that the parents who were reluctant to take their children to the park or to play outside would only say it was too far, too dangerous (?) or they didn’t feel like it. That speaks volumes. Translation = they know that their kids are being noisy but don’t really care. There also seemed to be a few people who thought the onus was on the sufferer to move not the other way around–comments like “why did you move here” or “kids need to run around”. No one suggested that the noisemakers should move. Why is that? And non of the self-serving parents suggested that it would be better for their kids to have a yard to play in. Odds are that they aren’t staying in an urban area for their kids benefit–they are staying for their own benefit. But it’s the childfree who are selfish, right?! It amuses me when people assume that child-free = loud stereos and raucous parties because everyone knows that the only reason we choose not to have children is so we can exercise our rights to break the sound barrier
What is that about beyond more pin-headed self-serving stereotyping?
For all of the groover parents out there who think that those without children who don’t like noise should move, I would agree with BritGirl that the responsibility is on the noisemaker to resolve the problem by soundproofing or moving out, not on the person who is being grossly inconvenienced. It’s not as if people moving in to a building get a roster of existing tenants to know exactly who lives where and what behaviors they exhibit or existing tenants get to sign off on who moves in (well in co-ops they do to an extent). What everyone prays for is that that won’t end up with inconsiderate jerks living near them who make their lives hell.
Those parents who assume everyone around them cares or should care for their children’s need for exercise and expression–are beyond ridiculous. It may be “common sense” to know that children make noise–so what. It’s also common sense to know that most people don’t want to deal with noise from other people’s children, dogs, cats, stereos, drum sets or clog-dancing. As has been said before and by many, if a parent had a neighbor with a perfectly legitimate hobby/need for expression that disturbed them every single day, they would not feel the need to extend understanding. Because as the judge in Germany determined—noise is noise, manipulative, bogus, pro-natal politics aside.
I had a conversation two nights ago with our friends in SF, who live in a flat with TIC (a US version of a co-op, as best as I can figure) rules. The downstairs family has two screaming toddlers, but want to have an emergency owners’ meeting to discuss “noise abatement” for the upstairs tenants, presumably to add carpets because their hard shoes and music disturbs their young family. I’ve stayed with them, and suggested they agree, provided the first floor people agree to “tantrum abatement” for their unruly children. Amazing how people can be so intolerant of others and oblivious to their own noise.
Oh, please do let us know how that goes. I’m very curious to hear what the downstairs family’s reaction is to that little suggestion. I’m willing to bet there’ll be a lot of sputtering and “but they’re kids, what do you expect?” blustering, but I could be surprised…
Ann-Marie: I think it is a horrible but unfortunately not infrequent situation where a hostile living environment is created because of noise. Co-ops are especially prone to this where a board meeting can be called to mete out punishment against the alleged offender. I don’t know how it is in SF but in NYC you can get a fine for each incident of noise and also voted out of the building–essentially forced to sell and move. I’m wondering if the children (young family members) notice the footsteps and music above (very doubtful) or more likely the parents have just decided to make it an issue — essentially being preemptive in lodging the first complaint since they know their kids are noisy. I hope your friend’s file a successful counter complaint–though that can become a lose-lose situation.
I was talking to a friend of mine who lives in NYC and she has a neighbor above her who has two kids–one who rides one of those little three wheeled tricycle thingees up and down the hall in the apartment and the other one who ROLLER BLADES inside. When my friend tried to reason with her about the outdoor activities indoors– mom slammed the door in her face and now calls her nasty names out of the side of her mouth when she sees her in the lobby. Completely insane.
Hmm… I know those quiet times exist in theory, but I’ve never seen them enforced. But that may depend on the region you live in and whether it’s urban or rural. If you work from home though, being able to complain about too much noise only after 10 p.m. or at lunchtime won’t do you much good, I suppose.
The above comment was meant to be in response to Laura – I think the reply function got lost in the preview.
From “40 Reasons to Have Kids”:
“Kids help you meet and keep in touch with the neighbours.”
Unintentionally, absolutely, hilarious.
When I was young I lived in an apartment. Since there was three of us kids, we use to wake up early and run around which really annoy the neighbors downstairs.
They mentioned it to my parents, who instantly told us to stop running around and be considerate of the people that live below us..
And we stopped doing it since.
Parents really should control their children. If they are truly sensitive, they will control their little monsters and let their neighbors have a little peace and quiet. If they knew that their kid was going to make a lot of noise and piss people off, they should have never moved to NYC in the first place.
Oh, here is the SF TIC update. Lots of arguing. My friends countered the “you make too much noise with your music, feet, shoes, etc… that we have to listen to” with “your child has a tantrum every day that we have to listen to”. Then it got really ugly. The mother in question got offended and ranted that this was a child, and that he couldn’t be held accountable for his actions the way they chose to play their music loudly. I think my friends were too shellshocked to reply. I would have been lighting into them that as far as I knew, children might be children, but parents could be held accountable. In the end, everyone agreed to buy runners for the stairs and work on removing shoes. I hope the downstairs breeders will buy a gag for their toddler, but I’m not holding my breath for them.
“It’s only a child!” Oh, my. Interesting how some parents believe that their offspring should have the freedom of expression they believe is due to children for proper development and yet they don’t feel strongly enough about it to make any sacrifices themselves vis a vis moving to a location where their progeny can howl at the moon (since some appear to be raised by wolves) without disturbing the neighbors. You can’t have your cake and it too, I don’t think. It seems like they not only want their cake, they want yours and mine as well.
I hadn’t noticed this related noise article before that links off the NYT noisy children article. It actually implies that people with children should think about the environment that they are moving into before they rent or buy–what floor is it on? what kind of building is it? who lives there? are there people with kids below the apartment you want to rent/buy or someone who is childfee? is there a playroom or park near by? Important things to consider before turning a neighbor’s home into an expensive torture chamber.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/realestate/06cside.html?ref=realestate
Thank you New York Times for encouraging parents to consider other people. Concept! Duh!
OMG, I feel so validated. My husband and I bought a condo this year underneath an elderly couple. We thought this would mean a lifetime of peace and quiet. WRONG!!! As if it isn’t bad enough that the elderly couple run around their hardwood floored apartment and move furniture as if they are on speed at all hours, their 2 or 3 young grandchildren arrived for 2 weeks over the Christmas holidays. It has been a NIGHTMARE each day as the kids run the length of the condo on wood floors from as early as 6:30am and late as almost 11pm. We have apologetically confronted the neighbors about the torture we are being subjected to, and we were told tearfully that we were interfering with the enjoyment of their family. No mention of the enjoyment of our holidays, which frankly were stressful to say the least. I had to actually leave and drive to a parking lot, where I simply sat quietly to escape the madness. A few hours of children pounding up and down above you on hardwood floors with no padding is enough for anyone. We are talking of selling our place at this point, as the thought of having our holidays ruined every year is unappealing to say the least. This thought drives me crazy, as we put a lot of money into our place to make it just as we like it…
GMom-
Actually, depending on where you live and in what type of building– leases. co-op/condo rules include clauses that define tenants/owners rights and building by-laws that the landlord/management company is obligated to enforce–including quiet hours.
It’s very easy to say “get out your sound proofing”–spoken by someone who has clearly never dealt with this problem in any meaningful way. Is this soundproofing something you have lying around your home? Can-O-Sound-Proofing? Effective sound proofing is not something that you “get out”. It can cost thousands of dollars and major construction to be effective (dropped ceilings, foam insulation in the walls, under-layment in between floors, etc). In wood construction buildings there is often very little you can do unless you gut renovate and reinforce between floors with cement. To effectively muffle or block high impact noise like running and jumping in an apartment (which should not be happening), the sound proofing has to be on the impact side (the kid side) of the floor. That means the parents of the noise makers have to cooperate and take responsibility to sound proof and/or manage their children so as not to disturb their neighbors.
It’s fascinating how people who don’t want to parent will find one million excuses as to why they can’t/won’t control their kids–and why everyone else should be happily imposed upon and inconvenienced to solve a problem the parents have created. Your kids–your responsibility!! Good parents absolutely can and do take responsibility for controlling noise from their kids. You want to allow your kids to make noise in a building that you share with other people who also pay to live there–then be a grown-up and incur the expense of sound proofing–don’t lay that burden on your neighbors!