Does the fact that someone is childfree merit such a lack of respect between partners? I’m thinking especially of this thread On Men, Kidults and Not wanting kids where, among other things we’ve read how somehow wanting a child seems to be more important than anything else, certainly more important than the other partner and the relationship.
And first, thanks to Josh and everyone else who has contributed and shared on that thread – and of course on all the others.
The complete acquiescence to having a child, even if you’ve been quite clear about the fact you don’t want any, is seen as “growing up”, “being normal”, “being right” and “being sensible.” That means, as we have seen in both Josh’s story and and Lisa’s contribution that in a relationship where one partner wants kids, the other partner’s views become irrelevant. Why? Suddenly one partner is put on the defensive, having to defend why they are childfree and that changing that would be a bad thing to their own partner! This is the same partner who knew all along that being childfree was part of the other partner’s personality and will, yet still dismissed that as being less important than the fact that she (I am using she in this case since the original post was about men) wants a child.
In other words, they thought the partner would change their mind (read – I never really took you seriously about being childfree) or that they would change their minds for them (read – my wanting a child is more important than what you want). Then there is the clear message – “having a child is, to me, more important than our relationship.”
So what exactly does this mean? To me it means the woman is saying to the man that having a child is more important than everything we’ve built, more important than being childfree and comes before everything else. Including respect. The husband has to be careful not to end up with a child regardless, by way of being oopsed. Some men will give in, either worn out by the constant pressure or maybe even believing that perhaps it won’t be as bad as they’d thought… and maybe they were being selfish, etc, etc. It’s hard when everyone you know, even those close to you thinks the complete opposite of childfree.
I wonder, with that kind of pressure (and you can read all the conversation in the thread) what kind of values would be passed on to the child? I’m sure that respect for others would be at the top of the list, but when you’ve pressured someone else into doing something which clearly isn’t in their best interests, how can you teach respect? Some women will say that they can’t help wanting a child, and that not wanting one isn’t normal. Having kids is “what you do”… isn’t it? Will they then encourage their own kids to put pressure on their partners to get what they want? To ignore their partners in the quest to have a child?
We have no idea how many relationships break up because suddenly one partner decides they can change the childfree person’s mind about having kids. Although it’s a sad thing I am happy that Josh and everyone else who is going through a rough time has taken the time to share… and that at lease they know they are not as crazy as their partners would have them believe. It goes without saying that I am grateful I am not faced with such a painful choice – relationship and being true to oneself or children (as we know it never stops at one child). We both respected each other’s choice and I don’t expect that to change
Putting up with “oh you’ll change your mind” and the lack of respect from strangers is one thing. Having to endure it from a spouse is something else entirely.
Your thoughts?
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You’ve raised a good point here. Whilst I don’t feel I have any smart answers to it as such it makes me think of relationships in general and how sometimes people (or partners I should say) can go through years of not listening to each other and hearing each other out. It’s often said that women in particular tend to try and change their partners in the course of a relationship. My partner has always been clear with me about not having any urge for fatherhood. However before we married I talked to him in length about my feelings towards parenthood and how I’m still sitting on the fence, as they say; I’m not fully decided that I never want to have a child, or to try for a child. It was important to me that he understood this before we married. My husband tells me he is not against having children period, and I feel we are in a similar place. It’s important to talk about these things and certainly not to put any undue pressure on either party, in particular when it comes to valid life choices or preferences which are a central part of the partners’ personality and character. I wish to have this wonderful relationship with my husband and it’s important to me that we are partners in life first and foremost.
Oh! When I read that title my heart did a little jump of recognition.
I feel as though I am less important than some little person who doesn’t even exist! The contribution I could make to his life is less than any contribution a child could make, just because I already know stuff that he wants to teach a child. (Which begs the question, what happens when the child reaches my age? No fun anymore, just have another?)
However I am fortunate in that, while he has said things that have hurt, he hasn’t meant them that way. I would much prefer that he is honest about his needs, and we both knew the situation going into this relationship. He hasn’t ever suggested that he thinks I will change my mind – just that he wishes I would!
I do feel that he doesn’t respect my decision because he doesn’t understand it – in his world it’s such a foreign concept. I can’t open his eyes to something he doesn’t wish to see. I have to respect that he feels strongly about this and that he can’t change his emotions with logic anymore than I can, or would want to.
Luckily in our case we care for each other enough that this isn’t looking like it’ll get ugly. I think we will soon part ways, amicably, and probably forever hold a small candle for each other. (Well, I can’t imagine that I’ll ever stop thinking about him and wondering “what if” – but I’ve thought that about men before and managed to move on).
I think that people who want kids often want them to fill some sort of gap in their lives. I would love to be able to fill that gap for him, but I can’t. In some ways, that makes me feel bitter and angry, but the truth is that we went into this knowing it was for a good time, not for a long time. I think we just didn’t expect to get along so well – I thought something else would break us up long before this became an issue!
I am SO glad we discussed it early on though. This would be so much more painful if it had come as a surprise.
Great article– what I had tried to tell my ex-spouse for so long–he decided he wanted kids out of the blue and then for whatever reason he feels justified to end everything we built over a 10yr marriage.
In the end, he isn’t where he wants to be in his career so he sees a baby as a new ‘project’.
Although ultimately I am better off without someone like this, it is bothersome that society 100% accepts no kids as a marital dealbreaker. I always saw it as something that both people had to turn their keys on, but if they got together with a certain understanding– one just doesnt get to bail, or shouldnt get so much cultural understanding for bailing.
I think though, sadly, people change through life and not all marriages will be cut out for life-long. Unfortunately–you just never know what camp you are in there.
I just know that the next guy im serious about will have a vasectomy!
I don’t get it either – give up a loving, wonderful partner for a question mark? Why??? Besides, what kid cares about your hopes, dreams, fears, likes your music, humor, TV shows, will kiss and cuddle you even after years and years? Pick you up after a hard day, help cook, clean, fix stuff? Support you emotionally and financially, always want to go everywhere with you? Please. Kids don’t care one bit about their parents’ feelings, dreams, fears, hopes, exhaustion, finances. They don’t want to be seen with, touched by or help their parents. maybe when they become self sufficient adults tehy will visit at Chrismas. All that work for THAT??? And to give up a daily companion and lover? For a holiday guest who wants food and gifts? Seriously, people are nuts.
I ended two marriages with men who wanted children. The first marriage, I was young, and I was just beginning to feel the automatic recoil at the thought of having kids. It was enough to know I didn’t want to have them, though, with the man I was married to – a man who wanted the house, the kids, the car.
The second marriage was with a man who knew I didn’t want children, but assumed I would change my mind.
It was the assumption I would change my mind that made me angry, not that having kids was more important to him than being with me. Oh, sure, if I felt like arguing I would say something like, “So, you’re more interested in your partner being an incubator than you are in the relationship itself? An unborn baby means more to you than the live person you married?”
But, really, I understood his desire to have children was as strong as my desire not to. If necessary, I would end a relationship with someone for whom children were absolutely essential – just as I would expect them to end it with me, someone for whom children were not going to happen. Each person’s needs are ultimately more important, yes, than the relationship, because if having children, or not having them, is a fundamental element contributing to the happiness of this existence, the partner becomes a secondary priority.
Really, it’s the assumption that I would/will change my mind that gets me the most. At times things seem to be getting better, but there’s still a bunch of comments thrown in about “when we have kids” or how various friends of hers are praying for me to change my mind and “see the light”.
We’re not fighting right now like we were, and the counseling has gone off on an entirely different direction of helping her deal with some personal issues of her own that go way back before we ever met, but I’m smart enough to know that the issue hasn’t been settled, only pushed to the back burner. It’s just a matter of time until the other stuff gets worked through and we;re back where we started.
Also, I want to say thanks to Britgirl and everybody on this site for listening to me and offering support. I really do appreciate it.
@Josh “… there’s still a bunch of comments thrown in about “when we have kids” or how various friends of hers are praying for me to change my mind and “see the light”. I’ll bet they are.
They’re probably having special prayer meetings every day to “pray for Brother Josh to see the light and realize he really does want kids.” I have memories from my years in a very charismatic church. Never mind the conveniently forgotten fact that praying for a person to so something against their own free will or to “change their mind” is so completely wrong on so many levels.
Again, thanks for sharing…though I’ve been late to my own party (so to speak) I have been reading all the comments and I am glad through your sharing that this painful issue is being discussed. Scary to think of how unsupported really are even by those who should be our main support. So if this blog did something, however small, that’s a good thing.
Yeah, you summed it up pretty well. There’s even one of her idiot friends praying not only that I’ll change my mind, but that we’ll have triplets. Not even my wife wants that. It really has been a big help finding this place, since I get virtually no support from the “real” people out there.
Oh, Britgirl,
This is such a relevant issue-it’s happening everywhere all the time. I’m constantly witnessing conversations among acquaintances, colleagues and relatives and I’m surprised that these otherwise intelligent and logic women would express such a narrow, subjective and selfish view of a relationship. I’ve tried to express some kind of opinion, but I’m quickly silenced with the argument I have no right whatsoever since I’m lacking any kind of mothering feelings (never mind that we’re talking about relationships here).How can you argue with somebody who can’t see the point?
Everything you said is so true-men unfortunately are sometimes treated so unfairly. I want to congratulate Josh for being truthful to himself-you know that for me is a real man knowing who and what you really are. I know how difficult it is when it is somebody you love-I also had difficult times in previous relationships. It is so noble that you’re making such an effort for your relationship to work ,but I think you’re making the right decision-as someone once said better regret not having a child than regretting having one.
By the way do you remember The George Clooney case-one of the few celebrities to openly admit he doesn’t want kids and the way he is viewed –immature, selfish, the famous playboy etc.Why is he so apologetic when he talks about this-oh yeah yeah kids are great,yeah ,really I admire Brangelina for what they’re doing it’s so humanitarian and selfless, but I couldn’t do that –I’m a selfish guy. I think he’s not being entirely honest.
And there’s another thing. I’ve noticed that these women I’ve listen to insist for independence and equality in all aspects of the relationship, except when it comes to parenthood. In parenthood they have all the power and responsibility to “influence the man positively, to show him the right way, you know use your woman powers and manipulate them a bit, it’s what women do best,right” this is usually followed by a smirk and a nod that says-yes he’s ours and he’ll do it, he just doesn’t know it yet. The partner is no more a partner, they called them kidult right. Well this is because they are treating them as naughty kids, and they are the knowing mothers already-to their husbands.
I sit, I listen and I’m thinking-men, if you ever come across such a lady please, please don’t generalise. We’re not all like that.
Oh ,by the way if you haven’t seen “Coco before Chanel” I highly recommended- an amazing childfree role model/woman right there.
Anyone recommend other films with childfree role models? Dont mean to go off topic – especially given the seriousness of the discussion – but little things like this help so much in the whole mentality of trying to not feel like a freak .. and also to normalise what can be seen as a lifechoice that some people struggle to understand….. maybe part of the problem in relationships is many people havent ever thought about the option of being childfree until they find themselves in a relationship with someone who has strong ideas about it. they may never have met any childfree people, let alone role models ……. as we grow up we rarely meet the childfree – the majority of adults we meet will be friends of our parents .. and as a rule they are generally parents too! the childfree people are generally elsewhere. so perhaps in the style of the “nudge” philosophy (great book by the way) there might be a few films/books that would help the undecided to contemplate and consider the childfree option.
I’d like to add one more thing — it’s always assumed that if you force a child on a partner, all will be well.
I grew up in a house where there was a surprise, late life baby. My little brother was and is a blessing — but the extra stress destroyed both my parents’ health and marriage.
Josh, I can sympathize totally because my husband will occasionally say things like, “if we have kids….” Er, if you have kids with someone else, you mean. I told him I didn’t want children before we married and nothing’s changed. I think for him it’s that he hasn’t fully thought through the idea that you *don’t* have to have children and there is another choice. Additionally, I run the household and I’m pretty direct in pointing out to him that he slacks off in the chore department so I have no expectations that a child would improve that attitude, merely double (or triple!) my workload. It’s a different dynamic because I’m the woman and frankly, the buck stops here on this issue. I can change anything about my life – sell my house, change careers, dump friends, get divorced – but you can’t take back having a child. I know it’s hard right now and I wish you the best of luck with this situation – it doesn’t sound like it’s going to go away any time soon….
I really don’t understand this attitude that other human beings are conduits to provide mates with stuff they want, just because they decided mid-stream that they want it–whether it’s a child or a big house or a two carat diamond ring. That doesn’t seem like love to me–more like a business transaction. I assume that big life stuff is agreed upon before marriage and if you are both into and work towards it that’s fine, but anyone who tries to pull a 180 and starts making demands should not expect anything other than push-back and really has no right to be indignant about it.
For me, being child free is so much a part of who I am that if someone doesn’t accept that about me, they don’t accept me, period. And anyone who has spent enough time around me to know and love me would also know that I’m not going to change my mind about characteristics that define me. If you chose not to pay attention, that’s on you. And honestly, if you’re not paying attention why would I want to be in a relationship with you.
Call it confusion or change of heart or just how they feel or however you want to justify it, but some of the behavior of the mates of people on this thread towards their partners borders on abusive.
Don’t most mature adults understand that you cannot happily partner with someone if that happiness is contingent upon them changing something major about themselves? I always thought that was relationship 101. And even if you do change a big something to make someone else happy, there is no guarantee that they won’t come up with something else that they need from you to be happy or that they’ll decide that the thing they asked you to do for them didn’t make them happy after all. This has been said many times before, but having a child to keep a relationship is a recipe for disaster and it is absolutely no guarantee of anything. When it comes to major life decisions, I’m with kd220–only change those things for someone else that you can change back if they don’t work out. Maybe, it’s because I am older than a lot of people who post here, being in my early 40’s, but let me assure you that life is way too short to saddle yourself with responsibility for another life on a whim or in a moment of weakness, exhaustion or sentimentality.
Once you are out of your early thirties, the years really fly by. I’m already trying to figure out how I’m going to accomplish all of the things that remain on my list of things I want to do/see/experience before I hit sixty which is when I figure I will still be in good health if my luck holds.
When my fiance said he wanted kids, I asked him if he would one day leave me in order to have them, because I sure wasn’t going to. He replied that he would, and I told him he could leave right that minute.
Never mind that he didn’t even know that he could father children at that point. I felt very deeply hurt that he cared more for a hypothetical child than a future with myself, and there was no choice for me but to call the whole thing off. He’s now married to someone else, and has three kids, and I’m very happy I let him go.
These days I find out from the start what page a man is on when it comes to having kids. You can’t compromise on this like you can on many other things. A child deserves the love and attention, willingly given, of both parents. If you can’t give that, then you shouldn’t be having a kid.
I remember when someone once told me that my marriage must be a joke, and that I am ruining my Husband’s life because I wasn’t going to have children. I posed the question about whether it would be fair for me to force a child on my Husband and they thought it would be. They couldn’t understand that *neither* of us wanted children, they seemed to think that the one-sided forcefulness regarding children was a perfectly natural and healthy way for all relationships to be.
In the end, I chocked it up to jealousy on their part. What surprised me the most, was this all came from a man who obviously thought that he was more intelligent and more capable of making something of himself than I am, and that as a woman I must be consigned to motherhood. Jeez, the pockets of resistance that I come across are harsh!
On this lucky freaky Friday, I just want to tip my hat to all of my child-free compatriots here who had the courage to say to partners and potential partners, “this is who I am, love me or leave me.” I’m sure it must have been a very difficult and painful decision. As an elder child-free person, I want to share that in my experience as I get older, I become more me, not less me and have not, at any point, doubted my decision. The consistent feeling I have is Phew! followed by a wave of relief. Also as you get older, you tend to not care much at all what other people think of you. What’s the saying, when you are in your twenties you worry about what everyone thinks of you, when you are in your forties, you don’t care what anyone thinks of you and when you are in your sixties you realize they weren’t thinking of you at all. To me, the moral there is don’t change your life for people, who truth be told, don’t really care much at all about what you do other than to make passing snarky comments to push your buttons. The type of people who do that are rude and inappropriate with all sorts of people on a range of topics, not just reproduction..
And, for those types who continue to offer their unsolicited opinions to other adults about their reproductive and/or personal lives, I say “Who the #uck are you to judge anyone’s life besides your own” and/or at the risk of being vulgar, “Please feel free to kiss my backside in the window of Macy’s under a full moon.”
oops–forgot to append the last sentence in my previous post….
“under a full moon, at your earliest convenience.”
My boyfriend said the other night that I should visit Mother’s groups so I can talk to “real people” about babies instead of “internet people”. Did you guys all know that you are, in fact, not real people? It turns out that I am naive and ignorant for thinking that the experiences I share with people on this blog and others are meaningful experiences.
The more we talk about this, the more bitter the conversations become, from both sides. I feel that he isn’t satisfied with his life and he thinks kids are the ultimate answer and solution (which of course they are not), he feels that I am somehow “broken” by some terrible event that must have occurred in my childhood to make me disconnect from humanity and not want kids. We both feel that the other is ridiculously naive.
I don’t even know why we’re still together. We won’t be for much longer, that’s for sure. I don’t know why he hasn’t ended it with me. I suppose the reason I haven’t ended it with him is that it’s all become an issue quite suddenly (was always there but we were ignoring it until recently) so I’m still sort of processing things and reeling from the suddenness of it all.
I too feel like an “incubator”. He feels that marriage and life partners are meaningless without children. He even said he doesn’t see the point in having sex if you’re not trying to get pregnant!!
Well, I guess that says it all. I mean nothing if I don’t spawn. Our partnership does not exist if there is no offspring.
Real or not, you guys really do make me feel stronger throughout this whole experience. I hear your voices backing up my arguments every time I am attacked. I know there are others here who are going through similarly painful experiences. And I know that we are all staying true to ourselves. This would be so much harder if I only had “real” people around me to talk to – none of them would understand.
It’s been interesting to see in the past few months how this blog has gone from being mostly a discussion point to a strong, valid support network. I’m very grateful.
Lisa,
I can definitely relate to you. Everything you said almost perfectly sums up my recent experience with my wife. At least you can feel fortunate that you don’t have the added pressure of having to go through a divorce over all this, although I doubt it’s much consolation at the moment. Like you though, I can’t believe how it went from as perfect as I could’ve imagined to a hateful hell-on-earth in virtually no time flat. It’s helpful, but at the same time sad, to know that someone else out there is going through almost exactly the same thing as me right now.
I also get told that I should listen to people at church about this issue, not people on the internet because you are all “worldly”. So yeah, I can relate to any support or stories to support my side being totally dismissed in any discussion should I try to bring them up,
which I really don’t bother to any more.
Regardless, I don’t know how I could’ve made it through the last couple months without the support from you all here, even if none of you are “real”.
You have to love it when the only “real” people are those that espouse ones own POV. You should show him the Dooce blog where quite a few of those “real mothers” (several hundred in fact) were sharing their misery at being mothers on discovering all is not exactly what it was touted to be.
yes, apparently if those women weren’t “messed up” they wouldn’t be posting on there. all the “normal” women are too busy playing with their babies to post on the internet, and nobody ever writes on the web about how happy they are.
he lives in a world where facebook isn’t used by 90% of the population and the internet is the realm of nerds. yet *i* am the one who is naive about the real world.
WOW!!!
That’s unbelievable! But you know, at least he showed his true colors now and not after marriage!!
And as for the “sex is for procreation” argument, that’s just awful! You should tell him that if that’s the way he feels then what’s the point of doing it now? But I guess a guy that can say that is not that interested in sex…
I’m sorry, I don’t know what your relationship is like, but based on what you said I can’t see how he is worth sticking with. I really feel for you, I know what’s it like to have this discussion with people that think the complete opposite…
There are guys out there that would appreciate you for you and not as a womb. I am engaged to one. He was on the fence when we met, but once I made it clear I was not planning on having kids ever he actually started thinking about it and now is relieved he doesn’t have to be a dad one day. Part of my reasoning for not having kids, btw, is that I want my partner to be my number 1 and vice versa. I would rather put that relationship first than some hypothetical one. (and of course there are a whole bunch of other reasons!)
signed,
“not-a-real-person” (:
Haha I like your sign-off!
Of course only one aspect of the relationship is on display here (and I think that’s where his “not real people” argument comes from – i.e. only people with certain interests are here, there are no parents espousing the opposite point of view and those that do, do it badly).
He is in fact a very generous and loving person, who’s going through a really hard time right now, not just with this but with other aspects of his life. He said those things partly out of frustration, confusion and sadness I think, and I obviously took them out of context to an extent too.
I do feel awful for him. It must be so frustrating to meet someone you can really care about, and discover she’s the only woman you’ve ever met or even heard of who doesn’t want kids! All things considered he’s handling it fairly well, and I’m not without fault for my part in these conversations.
But yes, it is time for this to end, it’s just a matter of when we both feel ready to come to terms with that. I think we’ll come out of it as friends, which is important to me.
It’s awesome you have such a mature attitude about it, I wish you all the best!
As for people on this site espousing only a certain point of view – that’s what the rest of the world is out there for! To tell us we are wrong and don’t know what we are supposed to want! There is no need to go to a mommy group just to hear the same stuff again…
Sorry I keep posting in the wrong place. Sigh!
My husband has two mistakes from a previous marriage. For people considering having a child to save your relationship – odds are, you will not, and you will be a divorced parent. As someone now married to a divorced parent let me tell you it blows. And my husband, while regretting the decision, at the time wanted them! And it sucks for us both now, to be stuck with those children, if not living with still dealing with.
What do you think it will be like for you as a divorced parent? The child support, which just adds insult to injury, the loss of property, alimony, the burden on your REAL life partner, when you eventually find them. I know it must seem like you can salvage this relationship if you give in, but you won’t, you will prolong it and handicap your future. All holidays? Ruined. Fighting with the ex, shuttling the children, all relatives taking sides, your partner annoyed because they have no interest in your spawn. All vacation time? Ruined. Weekends too, likely. Unless God forbid you get custody, then you might as well shoot yourself. Imagine you have a child you don’t want to please a partner and that partner dies? Or changes their mind AGAIN and decides parenting isn’t for them after all and leaves you with the kid???
I often remember your comment about how you’re not really letting go of your perfect partner, because “once the babies arrive” (haha that saying cracks me up) they wont be the same perfect partner anyway.
Staying together is lose-lose, breaking up is the only win.
People love to live in la-la land when it comes to using a child to save a marriage. If it needs a child to save it, it’s already in big trouble and no amount of having a child is going to mend it. It’s the worst… a child as sticking plaster. Lucky child – not. But as usual people only think of themselves….
although my childfree desires are unwavering, life can indeed change at the drop of a hat. my husband and i were having dinner with some childfree friends tonight, and one male friend was talking about how easy and painless a vasectomy was. my husband (whom i have thought was childfree as am i) was very hesitant about the procedure, and asked if there was a way he could “save some.” i thought he was joking and said “you’ll have to use it on another woman,” and he said “maybe i will.” that’s when (and i think my heart stopped beating here) i realized he was serious. now he’s shut down and says i was “open” to the possibility of children when we were dating, but “decided” i didn’t want kids after we were married. this is all a huge gray area here, and maybe i was leaving open a possibility when dating by not saying i absolutely didn’t want kids, rather saying i don’t like kids and “probably” never want any. well, that probably is an absolutely, and always has been. the day of our marriage, i even asked him if he was okay with never having kids.
falling in love left a soft spot in my heart that feels if i were to have had kids, it would have been him, but that’s a past-tense never-gonna-happen kind of feeling.
i feel broken right now. the marriage is new, and i love this man with all my heart, but i don’t want to continue if he wants kids. i am totally blindsided right now and somewhat in shock. i’ve posted on here by another handle, but even have changed that now.
my head is swimming right now with all sorts of upsetting thoughts. no amount of love for a man would ever change my mind. i don’t know what to do.
thanks for listening guys. i feel like from one minute i was happily married and childfree to being in total limbo. i’m reminded of how sometimes we’re just left in the cold on our own (which oddly reinforces my childfree feelings even more).
Thanks for sharing and very sorry you had to have such a shock right out of the blue. I also feel it was rather insensitive of your husband to put it the way he did in the circumstances he did. Blindsided is probably an understatement. I do hope the two of you can find a resolution that will restore your equilibrium… clearly a lot of talking will have to be done. Feel free to share as much as you want (or not) here. We don’t have the answers but at least you know there are people here who understand.
e_blue, I’m so sorry! While I too am hurting, I am also very aware that my relationship is relatively new, and we both knew this would be the end of us. Even having gone into it with eyes wide open I admit I was lulled into a “what if” world in which he would magically change his mind – we probably both were. So even under such clear-from-the-start circumstances I was still shocked when the moment came. I can only imagine how sick you must feel. It’s like being punched in the stomach and having the ground open up beneath you all at once. It’s indescribable and I really, really feel for you.
As Britgirl said, we don’t have the answers, but we can listen.
I wish you both the very best of luck.
I’m really sorry to hear that. I know exactly how you feel, still being there myself. Not much more I can say that the others haven’t already, but I really do hope it works out for you.
I want to thank everyone for these comments and for sharing their stories and thoughts. I knew that the comments would be greater than the article, even so, the very real depth of experience here is eye-opening – and appreciated. keep them coming.
thank you for your support. i feel like you guys are the only people that really understand. i know i risk harsh judgment from family and friends if this really does end up going where i fear it might go. this morning when i woke up, i wished so hard it was all just a bad dream. then i realized i’m in bed alone, and for the first time in our 2+ year relationship, there were no goodnights. this morning when i left for work, it was the first time i’d not woken him up to say goodbye and have a great day. i just feel sick all over. i really can’t believe this is happening. he always went along with the no kids thing. i mean, really went along, and led me to think it was what he wanted too. he’s everything i ever wanted in a partner, i love him so much. there isn’t much i wouldn’t do for him. but i can’t change my very being, i can’t sacrifice my soul to spend a lifetime being something i’m not. i just don’t understand….
That is terrible. That’s what got me too, and got me looking for support in places like this. I’ve never been treated and as badly, and just plain coldly by anyone in my life as my wife has treated me since this blew up. I could’n't believe how quickly what seemed so perfect crumbled. It’s getting better at times, but there’s still lots of moments like that. I have no family that agrees with me or really backs me up. Her’s sure doesn’t. My own mother told her to “oops” me. I get dirty looks whenever I have to be around her friends, which thankfully isn’t much.
Anyway, stay true to yourself, even though it’s hard. You can try counseling, and it may help you find out why he changed his mind, but only do it if you think you can handle going in as the bad guy and be able to stand up to the ultimate bingo-fest. After I got through that, it has been somewhat helpful for us, at least we’re back to getting a long most of the time anyway. Whatever you do, I wish you well though.
I have read this blog for a while, but this is the first time I have commented. I just wanted to say that I really feel for the people here who have partners who have decided they want kids. I went through that. At first he said he wanted kids. Then he said it was more important to be with me than to have kids. Then he went back and forth from kids to no kids various times. Finally, he actually said that he was happy with the childfree lifestyle as it had given him the chance to do a lot of things he probably wouldn’t have been able to with kids. Then after 5 years he decided he did want kids after all and left He even told me that I should have known he would eventually come this this conclusion.
Some later conversations revealed that he had assumed my biological clock would eventually kick in and I would decide I wanted kids. His being okay with being childfree was just an act. After that things got pretty nasty. We were not able to remain on good terms at all. However, I don’t think it was such a great loss since if he thought he was going to change my mind all that time, he really did not understand me or respect who I am. I think part of him thought that his leaving would make me change my mind and I would agree to a child to get him back. That is kind of pathetic. I mean who would want to manipulate someone to have a kid they didn’t want like that.
I since have met and married a wonderful childfree man who makes me the number one priority in his life. Yeah, the breakup was tough at first, but in the end it was a relief to be done with that roller coaster ride of him wanting kids, then being okay with being childfree, then wanting kids and the stress, arguments and tears his changing opinions brought. In the end, sadly, if people are at opposite sides on this issue, I think the options are either breaking up or one person being perpetually unhappy.
I don’t know where most of the posters here reside, but as someone who grew up in the Midwest of the U.S., I can relate to being surrounded by people who think that procreation is a rite of passage–and generally speaking, the sooner, the better (my two best friends from high school were pregnant by the time they were 22– and divorced by 30). In my experience, Christian family values = hypocrisy–just peel back a few layers and you’re bound to find something far worse, in my opinion, than a desire to remain child free.
That is why I left home sweet home in my early twenties. If you are single and want to find more like minded people to interact with (assuming that you care what people think) and you live in the bible belt, you may want to consider moving to one of the coasts. I’ve lived on both the East and West coast and while there are many people who have and want to have kids, there are just as many who don’t and won’t. You just encounter more options re: how to be in the world in a more densely populated and more liberal place. Child free doesn’t even register on the NYC weirdness scale–truly. For example, I read a statistic somewhere recently that approx 40% of household’s in NYC are single person. That is an umbrella for a lot of life variations including DINKS, single, divorced, and elderly but it also means almost half of the population have no kids living with them.
Again, my heart goes out to those here who are being put in the horrible position of having to defend themselves against a partner who pulled an about face. How is that remotely okay?
e-blue, I think what your husband did is really kinda shitty. That is a conversation to be had in private, not brought up during a casual dinner with friends. Not cool and not nice. Not to mention that he didn’t believe you when you said you didn’t want kids. Attention all men who read this blog, the biological clock is a not a given in all women–if it even exists. Don’t make assumptions about an entire population based upon media propaganda. Jeezus! I’m sure many women use the “clock” just to manipulate anyway. It’s easy, convenient and readily accepted as a legitimate reason. Biology is not destiny, unless you still swing from trees and/or have had a frontal lobotomy.
I’ve not been in a stay or go position, but I can empathize with the pain. My first significant relationship ended for other reason–I felt my partner was incapable of being happy and would always depend on someone else to make that happen. We never really got to the point where we talked about having kids because it didn’t occur to me as I thought it was ridiculous to have kids in your twenties period (the 1950’s were over) and besides I didn’t want any.
As it turns out he married twice–the second woman who had intense baby rabies from the get go and they now have two children–eleven years later he said marrying her was a mistake and they are both still unhappy, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE CHILDREN. Just an example of how people who are unhappy within themselves will always be searching for that magic someone–something to turn it around. Who wants to be a chess piece in another person’s life? Yuck.
Don’t let the wishy-washy, flip-floppers drag you down. You deserve respect and have just as much right to your happiness as they do.
Lee – I often think that a LOT of people want kids to fill some gap in themselves. Most people talk about the things they’d “get right this time” as though it’s their OWN life they’re getting another chance at.
The hardest part of this for me is the bitterness and the little comments – constant attacks that on the face of it have nothing to do with me not wanting kids, but they only started coming after we had this conversation. Then again he seems to be bouncing back to his old self again at the moment. Which makes me think very very carefully about what N-Anon has said about her guy who kept changing his mind. Mine has shown signs of being just like that!
N-Anon, you said that “He even told me that I should have known he would eventually come this this conclusion.” – it seems to me that he really felt that HE should have known that he would come to that conclusion.
N-Anon, you said that “He even told me that I should have known he would eventually come this this conclusion.” – it seems to me that he really felt that HE should have known that he would come to that conclusion.
Exactly, Lisa. I really felt lied to, like he was just along for the ride and knew he would leave eventually when the urge to have kids got strong enough. I lost all respect for him at that point, which made it easier to move on with my life.
Never posted here but read for ages.
I really can’t believe people who “change their minds” and mess with people’s lives. I’m blissfully married and child free. We took the “nuclear option” and I had the snip as we were horrified of any accidents happening. But before I did, we discussed it for weeks and said to each other that if one was not sure it was not too late to cancel the operation. Lots of people don’t seem to have a conversation about children before they are married and just make assumptions about it. I suppose for childfree men if they’ve had the snip its easier as it’s not a matter of don’t want kids, but can’t, any prospective partner is in no doubt about the stuation, also they cannot be “oopsed”
I was interted to read Josh that you go to Church, We do so as well I’ve always noticed that we Godsquad and child free are rare birds indeed. I don’t think there is any incompatability between the two areas of life. There seems to be a lot of hostility to religious types on some childfree forums (not this one) which I think is a shame as were not all the same.
Wow, this thread is heart-rending! I am a newlywed (married in June to my partner of 7 years), and I am so glad my husb is adamantly CF (I am CF as well). I would be SO PISSED if my husband abruptly changed his mind! It would be a heart-breaker as well as a deal-breaker. OMG, my heart goes out to each of you suffering like that right now!!
E_Blue, I feel for you! Just keep in mind that it’s far better to be single than to be in a bad relationship. Of course, it SUCKS that your man decided to flip-flop on you–he sounds like a great partner OTHERWISE! But if he’s going to be shitty about being CF, it’s time to get free, sister-friend! That goes for the other posters on this thread in a similarly shiteous situation, as well.
Sometimes I worry that one fateful morning I will wake up and be consumed with baby-rabies. Shudder. But I have to actively resist that stupid “magical thinking” that a baby is the answer to all of life’s problems–because it ISN’T. And that I can go through my fantastic life, continuing to make it better for myself and others, without succumbing to this popular myth.
I may not be wildly happy ALL the time, but I know that my life is pretty damn awesome. My husb and I have striven hard to get where we are (highly educated professionals who travel often for pleasure), why give that up?
It kills me to see so many of my beautiful, intelligent friends who have an active “plan” in place to begin breeding in the next 2-4 years (professionals in their late twenties/early thirties). I want to shout, “What’s so bad about your life as it stands right now? Why do you want to toss something that works perfectly well [your current CF existence] for a HUGE unknown variable [that would be the baby], one that will bring with it substantial amounts of stress, expenses, worry, and change your marriage and your ENTIRE existence as you know it?”
I’ll take my comfortable, quiet existence, with my husband and my cats, thanks. I’ll say YES to travel and large screen TVs and quality, quality, quality! Quality wine glasses. Retardedly expensive (and wonderful!) hair conditioner! These are a few of my favorite things, grin.
Oh, and let’s not forget another wonderful thing I should be grateful for–I am fortunate enough to live in a state in the US where medical marijuana is legalized, so this powerful medicine is (mostly) legal for me to use. As someone with a medical marijuana license, I can use my medicine in my own house, and leave it wherever it’s convenient for me. I don’t have to worry, “What about the chiiiiildrun?” I can leave it on my dining room table if I want to! So I will add “quality medical marijuana” to my list of quality stuff I adore!
(Quoting xaviere) “I want to shout, “What’s so bad about your life as it stands right now? Why do you want to toss something that works perfectly well [your current CF existence] for a HUGE unknown variable [that would be the baby], one that will bring with it substantial amounts of stress, expenses, worry, and change your marriage and your ENTIRE existence as you know it?””
You know, I actually don’t feel that way at all. I’m glad other people have kids for me to play with (I usually last about ten minutes, haha). I also think it’s great and perfectly valid that they want to add this extra challenge to their lives. Assuming they have thought it through and feel prepared to go for it, then there is no need to pity them.
I, for example, put my relationships before my career. I’d move for a man I loved and leave behind my job. However I know heaps of people who’d be “disappointed” at my “lack of independence”. But, I know what makes me happy and I’m not afraid to go for it.
So don’t feel too bad for them, just be glad that you are who you are, and they are who they are.
I think we might be trying to analyze something that is so completely irrational that there is no way to understand it with a rational mind. What I mean is that, from my observation, desire to have a child is such an irrational need in most people, such a strong urge, it overrides any reason.
The reason we, childfree, can soberly analyze the pros and cons of parenthood and why we chose not to go down that path is because we don’t have this overwhelming urge (thank Goodness for that!). Our minds are not clouded, so we can think about the issue rationally. From I have observed, when they get the urge, women (I never saw this in men) aren’t capable of thinking clearly and rationally. They don’t care if they lose their partner, job, identity, financial independence etc. – they can’t think of anything other than having that baby.
Like one friend of mine explained it – “It’s like craving a cheesecake, you just got to have it”. Sad that so many women give into the craving without thinking of all the consequences of having that cheesecake.
I guess I am very, very fortunate and have taken my husband’s disinterest in children for granted. Thanks for reminding me of that! I’ll thank him profusely tonight!
Britgirl, you are exactly right!
To get “the pressure” from a stranger is one thing but to get it from the one who is supposed to be your closest is something totally different.
My gf has wanted kids during the 2-3 years we have been together. The pressure has been constant although subtle.
We broke up just recently. Personally I reckon it was the child-issue all along the way.
Guess there wont be any more cold wars with her…
Lisa–No kidding! In yesterday’s Salon column, a bitter and depressed woman wrote in asking for advice. She has contemplated suicide and is in a relationship with a man she is incompatible with whom she feels doesn’t really love her. One of her priorities is to have children in the next few years and one of the things that she is angry about is that her boyfriend doesn’t seem interested in this plan. What?! I don’t care how badly you have the urge to have child, I’ve never heard of it making anyone delusional. Ignoring the fact that you are severely depressed and angry and that the man you are with would not make a good father means that despite your WANTS you aren’t necessarily parent material yourself–mature, responsible, able to prioritize, a realist–not to mention emotionally/psychologically stable.
A few people commented saying she must have children because she wants to is rather besides the point, given that she is in a state of despair, and not in a position to manage the blooming dysfunction right in front of her.
Lots of people want lots of things in life. The difference between children and grown-ups is that grown-ups are supposed to be able to tell when that thing (whatever it is) they just have to have is a right choice for them–emotionally, psychologically, financially, professionally. I really feel sorry for children born to parents who haven’t given parenting any more thought than they give buying a new handbag or eating a piece of cheesecake. I know seven women who had children in the past five years–two of them are in good relationships and are strong, well balanced people who make excellent, nurturing, responsible mothers. Did all seven REALLY want children? You bet!
p.s. my comment was in response to Lisa’s comment on Nov. 17. For some reason it didn’t post there….
og217:
A little bit off the grid…but:
I have gotten some interest from a single mom. She is a very beautiful person but we are just getting to know eachother.
It sounds like you dont advice getting involved with a single parent?
@ Lurker… if you decide to get involved with a single parent, just be prepared to parent to some degree. The child/ren are part of the package.
@Lurker, I am a step-mother, my husband has a 16-year old daughter from a previous marriage. I’ve been with my husband for 10 years now, which means I met her when she was 6yrs old (the mother has a full custody).
It’s been extremely challenging (and I think it’s more difficult with the girls than the boys). At the beginning, she and I both hated each other (I didn’t show my feelings because that would be totally wrong, but I confessed them to her later when she confessed hers to me; but that was after we started to get along). Fortunately, she is a very smart girl and is not a brat, so we developed a nice, easy going relationship which is not a parent/child relationship at all. I figured, she already has a set of parents, she doesn’t need another one. Instead, I am her friend and confidant.
But even now, when things are ok between us, it’s tough sometimes because when she is here, I have to give up my quality time with my husband and we can’t do all the things we want to do. I can’t wait until she is 18 and off to college.
Having said that, I feel my husband is my soulmate, if you believe in those, and I would never give him up. If being with him means dealing with his daughter (on a part-time basis, thankfully), that means I’ll deal with his daughter. Do I wish he didn’t have any kids? Absolultely! But this is not something I can change, so I learned to accept it.
The point I am trying to say (I think I am rambling) is that it’s very tough to be a step-parent; it’s the most ungreateful job. I think stats say that most second marriages end because of the kids from previous marriages. HOWEVER, if you find the right person and that person happens to have a child, I don’t believed you need to give that person up just for this reason. I might regret that my husband has a child but I never, for one second, regret being with him. Listen to your heart. Realize that it would not be easy but it might be totally worth it. Only you can know whether or not this person is important enough to you to go through this.
@Natasha/Britgirl: Thanks for the reply and for sharing.
I kind of wonder why I should get involved with someone elses kids when I from the start do not want my own. At the same time we dont choose who we find chemistry with. I try to think of this women as if she did not have kids. Do I like HER or not. If the chemistry and feelings are true and worth to sacrifice for then i think her kids (yes…3 of them…believe it or not..) would be able to overcome. She is amazing and I am surprised how feelings for a stranger suddenly develop, especially when women with kids so far have been off-limit.
Reading my last comment over again. I want to add, that someone having kids IS an issue, but my point is that nothing is impossible if everything else seems to be right. Even if it involves some (hopefully) lower degree of part-time parenting.
Ok. Since this is off topic, it ends from me here.
Meh, most of the point of marriage IS to raise kids together. Otherwise, it’s a rather redundant and dull institution. I don’t entirely understand the desires of deliberately childfree people to shove their feet into a shoe originally designed for breeders, and then complain that it fits ill.
There are plenty more enjoyable, fulfilling ways to structure an adult love life without children, but there is no really satisfactory replacement for boring old-fashioned marriage if there ARE children.
I think sometimes people (women in particular) will marry someone in the unspoken hope that he’ll change his mind about the “child issue” later.
Sometimes this bet pays off, and sometimes it doesn’t. If it doesn’t pay off, she’s got to figure out what to do then, and I tend to agree that a married woman who really wants kids ought to find a new husband before her clock runs out.
Of course, being honest with yourself (and everyone else!) is always the best policy, and I would never encourage anyone to marry a person with whom they have “dealbreaking” issues on the vague hope of changing their minds later.
Lurker, I would actually not encourage you to pursue this relationship. No matter how great the woman is, you ARE marrying her children, too; and unlike Natashka’s stepdaughter, YOUR stepkids would spend most of their time at YOUR house.
This is even harder and more thankless than having three children of your own would be.
“Meh, most of the point of marriage IS to raise kids together. Otherwise, it’s a rather redundant and dull institution. I don’t entirely understand the desires of deliberately childfree people to shove their feet into a shoe originally designed for breeders.”
While I concede that the original intention of marriage was based on raising children, I don’t think it becomes redundant without kids. I have childfree friends who married (quite simply, in a park with a BBQ reception) and they have each separately told me that they were surprised at how much MORE connected they felt once married.
As with the choice to raise children, marriage is a choice that means different things to different people and is therefore only “redundant” if YOU think it is.
That said, if I were to have children i would insist on marriage because I believe it brings a perceived stability to a relationship, that is important for the kids to grow from. However I don’t plan on having kids, therefore if I fell in love with a guy who didn’t want to get married, I wouldn’t bother to push it.
Now…the Honeymoon is a different matter entirely!
@Mama C: I hear you..
well, that’s fine and all, but I don’t understand what the fuss is all about when childfree people get married, blithely declaring that “marriage is whatever you want it to be!” when in fact, it’s an institution created primarily for the cumbersome job of bearing and rearing the sproggen, and only secondarily existing for the happiness and fulfilment of the adults involved.
Because sometimes it is frankly neither happifying nor fulfilling. lol. but much familial misery has stemmed from the idea that marriage is primarily supposed to make the adults feel good about themselves.
As for the childfree marrieds, if it makes ‘em happy, then fine; I do know several childfree-by-choice married couples who seem to be doing well in life, and I wish ‘em no ill.
I just don’t feel overly-sorry for people who jump into an ancient breeding rite and then feel abused when pressure to actually breed comes to bear. It’s just funny to me. What did they expect, really?
well it would be interesting to hear comments from gay couples who want to get married but may or may not want to raise children.
I guess they would like the choice to be there just like everyone else has, and I believe the marriage purpose changes over the years.
A lot of people simply like to make a formalised commitment in front of witnesses and wish to do that via marriage!
The reasons people got together in the first place have changed relationships/marriage were primarily due lack of options for women financially. Its been used to bring assets and nations together historically and I believe, although I could be wrong, but not all “classes” of people throughout history married in the formal sense they do today purely for raising children.
Yes, the expressed purpose of government-approved official “marriage” is prone to changing as time rolls on, but I think the further removed it becomes from procreation, the more irrelevant it also becomes as a sign of formal public commitment.
As plenty of CF posters have already noted, without children, either party is free to walk out the door at any given time, “marriage” or no “marriage.” It’s almost purely a personal matter at that point. Aside from the couple, there are no other real stakeholders.
The only thing still lending “Marriage” any of its old social gravity and formal recognition is the prickly matter of bearing children. We haven’t figured out a broadly satisfactory replacement for it in that sense, (yet?) and so it drags on. Nobody would care a bit about it otherwise.
I suppose a lot of people like the idea of participating in the ritual and gravitas of it all, but I do think that when a critical mass of folks ride those coattails, they unintentionally undermine the whole institution. I suppose if the business of government-sponsored marriage ever becomes too weak to attract the breeders of the world, they’ll have to invent some other way to cement their committments.
I’ve read before that various tribal societies have not considered a marriage really a settled matter child has been born to it.
This seems somewhat logical to me, and I do think that this is the direction Western society is perhaps headed. The confluence of no-fault divorce, joint custody, paternity testing, and the abolition of legal “bastardy” seem to point that way. The marriage itself is gradually becoming irrelevant. Having children with a person is the place where society, the law, and your whole extended clan becomes invested in your couple-ness.
For better or for worse! lol.
Just my two cents. As I say, I’ve got no beef with the CF crowd. Just out expanding my mind on this quiet Monday night.
Note: I’m trying to write this in a friendly tone but text is making me look much narkier than I actually am – so please bear in mind that I’m just having a discussion here.
“I just don’t feel overly-sorry for people who jump into an ancient breeding rite and then feel abused when pressure to actually breed comes to bear. ”
To be fair, it’s not like people don’t get pressure to get married too!
“When are you going to buy a house”
“When are you going to get a boyfriend”
“When are you going to get married”
“When are you going to have kids?”
“When are you going to have more kids”
It never ends!
(There are also several legal and financial advantages to being married in many countries.)
I would expect that a childfree person (or someone visiting a site such as this for the right reasons) would be someone who knows how valuable it is to have the freedom to do what is right and meaningful *to them*, without having to justify it to other people who hold different values.
I guess I just find it odd when I see people on childfree sites who come here primarily to seek support for their choice, and yet then say they “don’t understand the desires” of people making other, non-child related choices. You don’t have to understand it, but you don’t have to undermine it either.
“I just don’t feel overly-sorry for people who jump into an ancient breeding rite and then feel abused when pressure to actually breed comes to bear. It’s just funny to me. What did they expect, really?”
Well, I was under the impression that we were both OK with no kids from the beginning, otherwise I wouldn’t have married her. Why did I get married then? Lots of reasons. I didn’t look at it as something that I could just walk away from at the drop of a hat, that’s why I’m doing what I can to work this out instead of leaving with the going gets tough. We both have very conservative families, and to some degree we ourselves are too, that would’ve never accepted an ongoing living together relationship without marraige. As Lisa mentioned, there are several other benefits, and if you plan on being together for life, as I did, and deep down still hope we can be, why not take advantage of those?
Rituals have been with us for ages. Personally I find it strange when people try to break down a “constitution” for some reason. It tells me more about that person than the question in matter.
“As plenty of CF posters have already noted, without children, either party is free to walk out the door at any given time, “marriage” or no “marriage.” It’s almost purely a personal matter at that point. Aside from the couple, there are no other real stakeholders. ”
As an adult, you’re free to go where you want, when you want, and it’s always a ‘personal matter’. It seems to me that a whole lot of childed people bail on their marriages and relationships too, and having children doesn’t seem to be much of an impediment to that, does it?
“The only thing still lending “Marriage” any of its old social gravity and formal recognition is the prickly matter of bearing children. We haven’t figured out a broadly satisfactory replacement for it in that sense, (yet?) and so it drags on. Nobody would care a bit about it otherwise. ”
Sure we have a replacement for it. It’s called “have a kid if you want one, nobody cares that you’re a brainless unmarried teenager.” I don’t know what planet you’ve been living on for the last twenty years, but being married is certainly no prerequisite for having kids these days, and to be honest, the only people who do care about marriage are God-botherers and dinosaurs.
Where is it written that you ’shouldn’t get married unless you want to breed’? And following this train of thought, does thie mean that infertile couples should immediately get divorced, because their marriages are pointless? Puh-lease. As Britgitl so rightly pointed out, maybe it’s about making a commitment in the eyes of your friends, family, and society in general, standing up and saying you want to spend your life with someone you love. Nobody makes you do it, but some people choose to. Not to mention, the tax breaks and legal upsides are kind of helpful.
Not everybody chooses to frame their relationship in the confines of an outdated Christian mindset. Deal with it already.
Kat – couldn’t have put it better myself.
“t seems to me that a whole lot of childed people bail on their marriages and relationships too, and having children doesn’t seem to be much of an impediment to that, does it?”
My thoughts exactly. As any child of divorced parents will confirm.
The ‘childfree’ issue, is probably the only thing my girlfriend and I argue about, she wants them, I don’t. The argument flares up every few weeks (most recent, last night), she gets upset and angry, I try to comfort her, thats the routine.
As far as she is concerned, her life would be incomplete without children, she compared me not wanting children, to her not wanting air to breathe.
The thing that frustrates me the most is her total lack of empathy for my point of view, if I say why I don’t want children, she will just tell me all my points are wrong or ill-informed.
I’ve always been pretty honest about how I felt about having children, I started off being ambivalent, I didn’t think too much about it, it seemed a long way off. As I get older (I’m 30, she is 27), I’ve thought more and more about children, and how I simply don’t want them. She makes out I’m some kind of child-hater, which I’m not, I just couldn’t deal with them 24/7.
Everytime we have this argument, she tries to convince me I’m wrong, the sad thing is, the more she does this, the more it convinces me not to have children. Do I really want a relationship with someone trying to bully me into agreeing with her point of view?
She was very spoilt by her parents, and still is, I wonder if this has resulted in this self-centered attitude to life, that I’m simply a meal ticket/sperm bank…
MT – you don’t want kids, she can’t see herself without them, what’s more she ridicules you for your choice. I can’t help wondering why you’re still in a relationship which has big red flags waving in your face, not least the fact that she shows you no respect. As Loinnir says, get out now, as the likelihood of being “oopsed” is pretty high. It’s a no-win situation. This is a deal-breaker.
@ Mama C: the original point of marriage was NOT to raise children together. It was meant to secure a man’s exclusive access to a woman’s sexuality (and consequently fertility). In return, the man would provide for the woman and her children and protect her from sexual assaults of other man. The women (as well as the children) were quite literally the property of the men. So, if you do want to go down that road and argue with the historical purpose of marriage, do it properly and say: “If a woman does not want to be beaten, abused, raped, if she wants any say as to the number of children, if she wants her own money, if she wants any personal freedom at all – then why the hell did she get married in the first place?”
Mama C, while I respect your right to an opinion, many of your ideas are quite insulting. Us childfree ARE tolerant about people choosing to have kids. We accept that most people want them, and we don’t, and our attitude is “that’s fine if they want kids but it’s not for us”. The childfree do not constantly harass parents/breeders about why they want kids, even though many childed people refuse to be tolerant of our choice to remain childfree.
Your attitude that the childfree are undermining the institution of marriage are nothing short of insulting. Are you saying that we are not entitled to marriage simply because we do not want children? That’s a little unfair don’t you think when you consider how the childfree are constantly financially supporting the choice of people who choose to have children, namely through our taxes. Why are the childfree not entitled to the same choice of marriage as those who choose to have children? Us childfree simply want to make our union to our partner formal, in the eyes of our families and friends, just like you Mama C, have the right to do.
It’s ironic that you raise the point that the childfree have noted that we can walk away from our unions if we so wish. Just as many childed couples leave their partners as the childfree. In fact, the childfree, in my opinion, have so much more invested in each other than the childed. In a lot of cases, couples stay together in unahppy unions because of the children, and when/if they do eventually separate, the only thing typing the couples together still, are the children.
Lastly, Mama C, the greatest irony in your opinions set out above several times, is where you state that the only point of marriage is children. Many married couples end up separating/divorcing because of this “society rule” that marriage = kids, whereby if they can’t conceive naturally they will bankrupt themselves to go down the IVF path. This path puts a huge strain, emotionally and financially, on couples which eventually drives them apart!
Lastly – yes, this time it is
– Mama C, you are browsing a childfree website. This website is for like-minded people to converse and support each other. This website is not the place to be preaching to us that we are wrong to get married if our aim is not to have children.
So, MT… your girlfriend thinks you’re a child-hater who would sooner see her dead (since she equates having children with having air to breathe… oh, ye gods!) than have kids. She has no empathy for your point of view, and she tells you you’re wrong. You’ve been honest with her, and she treats you like an ill-informed fool. What part of this situation doesn’t scream “GET OUT NOW!”…?
You think her parents have spoiled her. Well, just picture them in her corner, looking at you like you’re some kind of ghoul. Picture the three of them– her and them– looking all smug when she “oopses” you.
She won’t change, and, with luck, neither will you. This is a deal-breaker. Get out now, before Little Miss Condescension tries to trap you with a baby-related “accident.” She sounds like a real piece of work.
Tried the “reply” function, but my post did not seem to be registered.
MT: Your last comment could have been written by myself.
Kids or no kids is one thing. To be pressured into having kids is a totally different matter. Especially when you are not being heard at all but just expected to fall in like “everybody else” since everything else is abnormal.
After a while it seemed like not only my opinion about kids were totally ignored. Probably unnecessary to say, but that relationship (just recently) ended. Good luck with yours…