Here’s an interesting article for both childfree men and women… but particularly for childfree men. It’s about what happens when men become parents, told from a male point of view.
Escape from Dudescape to Dadscape
The comments as always are illuminating. There are some very good childfree responses and, surprise, surprise, a good many bingoes from the childed.
Here is a great comment from a childfree man:
“Mr. Glave, likely as not, you will find it near impossible to just “return to the dudescape”. As someone who has chosen not to have children, over the years I have lost many friends to fatherhood. After the kid(s) arrive, we suddenly have nothing in common. By the time their children grow up, we still no longer have anything in common.
Priorities suddenly change. That is part of it. Another part of it is, in this status crazed society, children have become not-so-little status symbols. So the childless individual suddenly just can’t understand anything, because they are not parents. This air of superiority tends to imbue every conversation, until it becomes a nauseating nuance. Really kills a friendship, and QUICK.
Being a parent does not automatically make for a better, more enlightened person. There are many parents out there who are frankly are not fit to raise a goldfish.
But even the most dedicated parent, be they father or mother, should endeavor to have a little time for themselves, with their own friends, for their own interests. Before they end up as a just a lump on the couch. “
I agree.
Here’s one from a childfree woman:
“To ValerieM – Not every woman wants kids. I’m one of them. I don’t feel the need to have a child to “complete” myself, as many women I know do. I certainly don’t berate those who sincerely want children. It’s a basic decision that each person has to make for themselves. You are the one who seems “hostile” about your kids. I get that. That’s the “mama bear” syndrome. But your attitude makes you come off as a tyrant. Which makes me instantly feel sorry for your husband. He no longer has a wife. He has a “mommy”. Ugh.”
And here is the one from ValerieM – which to me is the usual barely veiled hostile response to the childfree… “you won’t have any joy because you didn’t have kids, poor you…”
The reader who sent me this article highlighted this comment in particular since childfree women are accused of not being “feminine” or “nurturing”, and “more like a man”:
“I guess I struck a chord…geez, I oftentimes wonder why childless people are GENERALLY so hostile and then it occurred to me that maybe THAT is the difference between a highly feminine woman who is by nature a NURTURER and a woman who lacks that quality and is more like a man and into HERSELF only? I think I might be on to something! : ) God Bless!”
I have never been able to fathom why the childed are so often hostile to the idea that anyone who hasn’t got kids isn’t wishing they had. Or that they want some balance in their lives that isn’t kid-related. Like it or not, when the baby comes along, everything changes. And it doesn’t mean men deal with it as smoothly as some would have us believe. But then, some would also have the childfree believe that having children is life’s greatest achievement… and we all know what we think of that one.
Read the article and comments and share your thoughts…what do you think?
Thanks to K for the article and link!
Escape from Dudescape to Dadscape
{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }
Ah, this old chestnut. My partner’s best mate is going to have kids one day. His girlfriend is one of those ‘but EVERYONE has kids!’ type girls, and the mate in question wants to carry on the family name, I think. He’s such a cool guy. He’s smart, he’s funny, he’s great to hang around with, whether we’re going out for dinner, or just sitting about playing video games. Yet we know, one day (probably soon, if the girlfriend has her way), all that will change, and my boyfriend and I will lose a very close friend.
I’m lucky enough not to have lost any friends to children just yet. But it’s inevitable, really.
I honestly don’t know how universal that so-called ‘guy thing’ is that’s supposed to make the transition into parenthood so difficult for men. Is he seriously positing that, though women can meet friends and relatives at home over a glass of wine, he can’t? Because frankly, my husband meets his friends in exactly that or similar settings all the freaking time! Minus the child napping in the next room. So even the incentive to meet up this way should be gone, yet it works. Is this to do with ‘guyhood’ as it’s defined in North America?
I am also surprised at this sentence: “You need to be physically present, grabbing the burp cloth, emptying that Diaper Genie, and covering for your beloved while she sneaks out for a desperately needed salt glow treatment, whatever that is.” Covering for your beloved while she sneaks out. Covering: what is being implied here? Let’s suppose he has a full-time job, she’s a SAHM. If he only “covers” for her – as opposed to legitimately taking over – doesn’t that mean that he gets off work after 8 to 10 hours while she never does, excepting the occasional break? It only gets worse when you consider that the wife may also have a job outside the house. Sneaks out: People, particularly adults, who aren’t doing anything wrong do not “sneak out”. They leave. It’s subtle, but the choice of words varies here for a reason, and I detest the attempt at manipulation. And let’s just forget about the “whatever that is”, which jumps out at me as implying ‘one of those weird girl things’ – it just feels like a put-down. Climbing and hiking – ‘guy’ activities – are not qualified at all, they just stand as is.
Overall, I don’t buy into the author’s universal concept of ‘men socialise this way, women that way’. His descriptions and the lines he draws do not apply to me and they don’t apply to many other people in my life. Cups of coffee planned weeks in advance? Not even with my friends in different countries does it take that much planning. I would find that unnerving and tedious.
Of course the people he describes, particularly men who act the way he says, exist. But if they feel they must adhere to certain norms in order to be “real men”, and if that excludes meeting up at home, then they’re building their own cage that no one is confining them to other than they themselves.
I recall coming across another article (I think it was also in parent or parenting) in some feed about how male parents would seize upon any opportunity to run errands outside of the home so they could escape the family circle but not feel guilty about doing “guy” activities with their friends. It shouldn’t really come as a surprise how much your life changes when you have children–though it probably feels like a real departure for men whose fathers were of a generation who thought child care was a “ladies only” activity. Now that men are expected to be more involved in parenting, perhaps the whole concept has lost it’s sheen.
I have to agree with the highlighted comment from the childfree man. There is this subtle or sometimes not so subtle undercurrent of superiority that comes from some “types” of parent who think they belong to an exclusive club (how exclusive could it be at 80% of the pop.) the members of which are privy to knowledge of all of life’s great secrets. It never occurs to members of the club that some childfree people have a bigger picture view of the world and humanity that they still fail to possess even though they have children. I call these types the one-uppers. No matter what they have chosen in their lives, it is always the absolute, universal best choice simply by virtue of the fact that they have chosen it. My take is because other choices are now off of the table for them, they have to expend a lot of energy psychologically reinforcing their own decisions and if that means knocking people down a peg who don’t have kids, they are up for the task. Perhaps, it scares them too much to think that they had other options that they were not courageous enough to exercise. Do they really think that life as father or mother is better than their life before? Maybe–maybe not, but they are so well defended no one will ever know because they have to keep up the front as the alpha class. My take on that phenom is if you have something I don’t want, your having it doesn’t change the fact that I don’t want it–unless I’m a very weak and insecure person.
As for the woman who feels the pinnacle of joy in her life is looking up at her offspring. Really? That’s all she’s got?! She really needs to get out more.
One more comment about this flawed piece of logic:
“I guess I struck a chord…geez, I oftentimes wonder why childless people are GENERALLY so hostile and then it occurred to me that maybe THAT is the difference between a highly feminine woman who is by nature a NURTURER and a woman who lacks that quality and is more like a man and into HERSELF only? I think I might be on to something! : ) God Bless!”
1. If this person thinks mothers are not hostile she should visit NYC-either Park Slope or the Upper West Side. Some of the angriest faces I see on the street are pushing strollers–and that is in the absence of any confrontation.
2. If your capacity for nurturing is only limited to your offspring, then I remain unimpressed. If you can care for a living creature that you did not give birth to or that has no biological connection to you and will afford you no long or short term benefit or ego reflection, then I will agree that you are a true nurturer. Hormone induced nurturing doesn’t count.
3. What does more like a man mean? Men only come in one variety–selfish?? She must confuse the ability to reason with masculinity rather than connecting the lack of that ability with low intelligence.
4. Hmmm, the description of “highly feminine woman” combined with the sign-off “God Bless”, smells like evangelical spirit. People who believe that dinosaurs and man co-existed on Earth, do not dazzle me with their logic or reasoning abilities. Funny, how they always shore up their invective by offering a blessing from God–what better way to exude the pure essence of maternal warmth and caring than to label women who aren’t just like you as essentially flawed or different in a bad way. Ooh wait, I think I feel a little tear forming in the corner of my masculine eye. Nah, just a bit of mascara….
“She must confuse the ability to reason with masculinity rather than connecting the lack of that ability with low intelligence. ”
“Ooh wait, I think I feel a little tear forming in the corner of my masculine eye. Nah, just a bit of mascara….”
Lee, your comments are consistently brilliant and entertaining! Haha.
LOL! No kidding on all your points, particularly #1. I finished high school in a small town in rural community in southern Indiana. Some of my relatives really exemplified the redneck stereotype – cousins with the truck/car on cinder blocks, the trailer that attracts tornadoes, the abundance of little fat kids running around. One cousin in particular, for a span of about five years, she was having children at about the same rate the state was removing her other children from her custody.
I sincerely don’t envy the dad-husband, because once the kids arrive he’ll be, most probably, left aside, and the kids will become the top priority. Tough job, I’m telling you!
“I guess I struck a chord…geez, I oftentimes wonder why childless people are GENERALLY so hostile and then it occurred to me that maybe THAT is the difference between a highly feminine woman who is by nature a NURTURER and a woman who lacks that quality and is more like a man and into HERSELF only? I think I might be on to something! : ) God Bless!”
That comment makes me scoff somewhat.
It’s funny that the women who are into THEMSELVES and don’t naturally go for the NURTURER role are often those in society who are indispensible. Many of them are the strong women (and for that matter men) who are Doctors, carers to people that they aren’t related to, carers for animals, teachers, mentors, district attorneys, judges.
These people care, but in a much wider spectrum than those who care ONLY for their children.
This way of life is meant to appeal to us how??
I received a record number of “bingoes” in one day yesterday, when during the lunch break of a course I was on several of my classmates challenged me in a converstaion about children, when I answered (after being asked a couple of times) that I didn’t want to have children.
I was bombarded with all the usual (utterly rubbish) reasons to have kids and yet just 10 minutes before the very same classmates, who all have at least 2 children were all sat complaining – about childcare difficulties, lack of privacy and time, tiredness, inability to meet a new partner, lack of money, difficulty in completeing homework with the kids around, complaining about having the kids off school the previous week due to the weather so soon after they were off school over xmas…etc etc
Do people think the childfree have no memories? Are they confusing “childfree” with “goldfish”?
The same people who whinge about the lack of time and space for themselves will then suddenly close ranks and turn on you if you say you are childfree, suddenly parenthood becomes the be all and end all of ife.
The most annoying comment I received was from one smug mother, who was on a different (and totally not child related) forum who complained about catching the bus while heavily pregnant. “it isn;t like I am doing this for myself” she said in her post “I am doing this for the good of everyone”
When I asked her to explain this she (and several others) all jumped in to tell me that she was selflessly doing her bit to continue the human species. as she said “these babies are our future. Maybe this baby will be the one to find a cure for cancer or something”
After slowly chewing off my own face I managed to conduct a civil reply and logged off, but jeezus, I could barely handle the smugness.
And thats the attitude I am reminded of in the article. That whole bloody martyr thing, the “ive given up my pleasures and joys” whether it be for the wife, or the child or whatever.
Just admit that is selfish, admit that it is a lifestyle choice and back off for christs sake
sorry this is probably a rather incoherent rant and I don’t think I am managing to convey what I actually mean.
Oh well.
GRRR and stuff.
ps, why is it an insult for a woman to be told she is “like a man”? Surely people who make such silly comments based along old fashioned gender divides are the ones who see men as stronger, more intelligent, more capable. If someone who has such a negative view of women, as in we are some kind of weak, indecisive fragile little flowers then I would much rather be told I was “like a man”
“After slowly chewing off my own face”
heh, great line.
I love how everyone’s child is going to be the one to cure cancer. Oh great, so not only are you contributing to overpopulation, your child is going to save millions more lives. Hopefully somebody else’s kid will find the “cure” to starvation.
The reality, of course, is that majority of kids go on to either become drug addicts, criminals, or simply breeders themselves. No breeder has the time to cure cancer.
Their kids aren’t going to have time to find a cure for cancer, because moomie will be constantly pressuring them for grandchildren. Buy hey, maybe her great-grandchildren will find one? Or her great-great-grand…
Here’s a novel idea: how about you stop saddling your spawn with our generation’s problems, and try to fix them yourself!
I wonder if Jack the Ripper’s mother secretly hoped he would grow up to cure tuberculosis…
Anyhow, I agree with nerd. The people who complain the most about the CF are those who seem to be tied into the restrictive gender roles of man = go-getting provider, woman = trembling nymph and nurturer. It says a great deal about their narrowness of perspective. I’d rather be a provider than a nurturer, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can go back to their cave and sulk.
You are way too kind, Lisa.
I’m sorry that you are going through a difficult time now. From what I’ve read here you have put a lot of thought into your decision and handled a very challenging situation with a clear head, not to mention kindness and integrity.
Thank you. Knowing that the decision is the right one helps a lot. We actually just spoke on the phone and had a really good chat, a few laughs; it helps to know he is thinking of me too.
We both said we’re looking forward to the time when we can be good friends, and who knows, maybe one day I’ll be able to babysit his kids and reflect on how much I DON’T regret this decision!
I’m proud of how we’ve handled this. Our honesty with each other was key to how well this has been dealt with, and I have so much respect for him. I could never have walked away from the relationship without him helping on the way, and it’s probably the same for him. I’m so glad we didn’t leave it too long and end up resenting each other.
It gets easier every day. I’m starting to see that I’m sure of my decision and he is sure of his, and we’ll both be ok.
My husband and I are 32 and 29, respectively. Neither of us have ever wanted children. Now that I’m almost 30, I’ve been re-evaluating just to make sure we’re making the right choice. It’s a real struggle for me because most people encourage us to have children, and even though a tiny part of me does want children, most of me does not.
It’s hard to deal with most parents’ opinion of the childfree. I find the smugness and judgmental nature of their opinions to be infuriating. I’m finding that I need a way to turn off the opinions of other people so that I can just listen to my own heart and make the decision for myself–and not be influenced by a world that thinks everyone should conform to one certain way of life. That being a life with children.
@Sara – the smugness and judgemental attitude is infuriating and it can be extremely hard to take. But as Anne-Marie says, if you do encounter these attitudes you must ignore them and decide they are not going to affect you. The surer you become in your decision and what works for you the less “they” and their opinions will matter. The only thing that should matter to you is what works for you.
Sara, although it’s hard, turning them off is a good step, since you will both be the ones dealing with the results of you decision, and no one else. I’m happy now to be 47, as the bingoes seem to have disappeared with my advancing age. Of course, in fairness, I started out thinking kids would be alright, then managed to become mentally childfree after realising I couldn’t get pregnant. Rather than going for all sorts of poking and prodding and treatments, we chose not to pursue it, or to go for adoption, which largely told us we really didn’t want them that badly in the end. In a sense, we seem to have avoid that whole smug thing, because everyone around us has silently just accepted that we can’t and don’t seem to question why adoption and the other treatment options were passed over. I guess it’s too uncomfortable, which suits me fine because it isn’t anyone’s business anyway.
I was always impression that men will find a way to hang out together regardless. Society still puts the burden on women in regards to dealing with the kids. I never figured there was a gap between childfree men and dads. However, I can believe that for some childfree men that’s true, depending on the attitudes of the dads with whom they associate.
I don’t think that most childfree men are as subjected to the snide remarks and constant urging by childed men to be dads, as childfree women are from both moms and dads. I would think that a lot more dads wish they could be free of the ties they have that childfree men don’t have. But the dads don’t verbalize it that much.
Eh, this being a blog more oriented towards the female point of being childfree, it doesn’t surprise me the (mostly) female readers of this blog don’t really understand the dynamic of male communication. That having been said, I think Britgirl does a fantastic job of representing both points of view.
Thanks Sean – I do my best! That’s why we need the guys to post their stories, views and thoughts. It’s something I would really love to see much more of. So please share!
My husband has always said that he’d do his share of the work if we had a kid. Sorry honey I don’t believe that… It won’t be just Tuesday night when he meets up with the lads! So I’ve never bought into that!
I don’t understand why people with children are hostile toward those who don’t any more than I understand why childfree are hostile to parents. The best I can come up with is that those who are hostile are insecure about, or unhappy with, their decision. Otherwise, there is no reason to belittle. Belittling is done to make a person feel better, or superior – why do it unless you feel inferior?
I can understand the hostility towards parents, but like Britgirl I think it’s a reaction to constantly having your own life choices belittled by elements of that group. And it’s rarely universal. Even on the most vitriolic childfree sites you will find that people are delighted when they come across parents who respect other people’s choices and parent their children. It’s also my belief, and others may disagree, that some parents are extremely touchy. They come across a vent on some childfree site and automatically assume it’s directed at them, almost personally. Does the description fit? On a regular basis, not the one-off? No? Well then give it a pass, it’s not about you. But I’ve gone off-topic now.
I think insecurity and the realization that having kids really is a choice can bring out hostility in some parents.
I can understand why some childfree people may sometimes be hostile to certain parents. They are told they are nothing if they are not a parent, that their very decision not to have children is unworthy of respect, that “they will change their minds” etc, etc. While I don’t think belittling anyone is the answer (and doesn’t do anyone any good) I think it can be a reaction to the way parenting and children are held up as the “de-facto” state of rightness. However I know most childfree people are not hostile to parents at all – and while I know there are some extremes – childfree commentators tend to be more balanced and less smug about their choice. I am yet to see a childfree person telling everyone else that they must be childfree or they are “lesser beings” or that they can’t imagine anyone not being childfree, yet I see parents pushing parenting at every opportunity they have, regardless. Not good.
A while back, I saw comments here by people who referred to parents (clearly intending to be insulting) as “breeders,” among other things. Generally, reasonable people are reasonable – with or without kids. But there are just as many childfree who bash parents as there are parents who bash the childfree.
(Actually, there aren’t, because there are probably more people, statistically, who have children than those who choose not to. But you know what I mean.
)
Kristen
(Childfree.)