I got this fascinating link from one of out long time Child free male readers (thank you!). This is one where I hope both Childfree men and women will both chime in with their perspectives. The first link below is actually a response to an earlier post by Lori Gottlieb where she advises women to settle for Mr Good Enough rather than wait for Mr Right – because waiting for Mr Right is fraught with all kinds of disappointments. The story linked to below got more than 100 comments, so a lot of discussion about this topic. I read both articles and while I saw some good points in her original articles I think she rather spoiled it with some over-generalizations. Here are some noted by our reader whom I will call B. I agree with them. He says:
- Ms Gottlieb assumes that all women want children. She does make a few token mentions of neutrality.
- In general she’s quite dismissive of men (at least that’s what comes across to me)
- She apparently wanted a child so much that, in her mind “settling for Mr Good Enough” was the way to go and
- If Mr Good Enough didn’t materialize then having the baby on your own was the way to go
So much for making people feel special when looking for love I just felt warm all over reading that. Her first article was written in 2008.
“My advice is this: Settle! That’s right. Don’t worry about passion or intense connection. Don’t nix a guy based on his annoying habit of yelling “Bravo!” in movie theaters. Overlook his halitosis or abysmal sense of aesthetics. Because if you want to have the infrastructure in place to have a family, settling is the way to go. Based on my observations, in fact, settling will probably make you happier in the long run, since many of those who marry with great expectations become more disillusioned with each passing year.”
She goes on to say:
The couples my friend and I saw at the park that summer were enviable but not because they seemed so in love—they were enviable because the husbands played with the kids for 20 minutes so their wives could eat lunch. In practice, my married friends with kids don’t spend that much time with their husbands anyway (between work and child care), and in many cases, their biggest complaint seems to be that they never see each other. So if you rarely see your husband—but he’s a decent guy who takes out the trash and sets up the baby gear, and he provides a second income that allows you to spend time with your child instead of working 60 hours a week to support a family on your own—how much does it matter whether the guy you marry is The One?”
I read the first long article. While I do get that marrying solely to have a man around to furnish babies and make it possible to stay home is unrealistic in this day and age, I felt the whole “settling” aspect rather “unsettling” to say the least. Is it necessary to make someone feel as “less than” because you want to get married and have babies? And what about the option to not have kids – something that didn’t seem to feature at all in her generalization.
Should women give men more of a chance and have a more realist outlook? I think so. I recall when several of my friends got married years ago (and before me) they literally wanted a man who checked all the boxes in very long lists. Such men either don’t exist or are a rarity. Should women have a more realistic view of who “Mr Right” is? Yes.
Except on the childfree aspect. It is a deal-breaker. There is no “settling” on this aspect for those who do not want kids.
It’s very true that as we get older and want companionship and or marriage some things become more important than others when it comes to relationships. They certainly did for me. Having babies became less important as did whether my husband earned more than me or not. But I don’t think anyone should be made to feel that they’re “second best” nor should anyone look at anyone as being second best.
On another note, perhaps if women took their biological clock out of the picture and considered being child-free as an equally viable option the pool of people might be wider. Then again, there are also men who insist that marriage also means kids (and that all women want kids even when they say they don’t).
I don’t subscribe to the “marriage is hell” school of thought (being happily married and childfree I am hardly likely to) but I also feel that along with society’s other pressure to fall in with everyone else marriage is right on up there along with “when are you going to have babies?” Fortunately I ignored it… I married late and I was quite happy being a singleton… but my single friends (still with the long checklist) don’t love being single in the least.
OK, I’ve rambled a little on this article… so what are your thoughts on Lori Gottlieb’s articles? Don’t forget to check the comments out… they are an interesting mix. Here are a few excerpts:
I do not understand why Gottlieb isn’t married. Where does she live – in a universe where there are no straight men? I moved to the Washington DC area in 1984 as a single 25 year old woman. I was told that there were 10 women for every man and that I’d never get a date. What nonsense!
…What most men want- and I’m not talking about the top 5% who are millionaires – is a woman who is not a financial or emotional parasite. They tend not to want a woman who thinks that a marriage license is a license to no longer work. They want a woman who is a full partner.Again, where does this chick Gottlieb live???
“Ugh I HATE reading stories like this. Talk about over-analyzing a situation.
Ms. Gottlieb seems to take a simple lesson to the extreme- of course, don’t throw away someone awesome because of whatever random shallow reason. That’s Basic Human Decency 101. But anyone who goes out to a bar looking for “The One” to walk in the door is going for the wrong reasons. Go to a bar with your friends to have FUN. No one is guaranteed a partner, and to be unable to enjoy doing things alone (and really, are we ever alone? friends, family, etc.) isn’t healthy.
You have to live your life to make you happy, rather than building it around the idea of someone who might not show up. That is how people end up 40 and empty and full of regrets..”
There are so many more, best you check them out yourself…
Lori Gottlieb and the Issue of Settling (this was the one about the responses to the first article).
Marry Him (this was the first article).
Look forward to hearing some CF perspectives on this. And thanks to B who sent me the link!
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Maybe I’m just too introverted. I am truly not worried by the thought that I might be single forever. Of course, I’m only 26. But so many women in history never married and had amazing lives. If I were to marry, no he doesn’t have to fill all the checks on my checklist, but I don’t want to live with someone I’m ALWAYS lukewarm about, who NEVER fills me with passion, who is stable and responsible but nothing more.
And whenever someone says older single women deep down inside aren’t happy, I think, “So what about nuns?” Most of them never married nor had kids, and they seem pretty content with life. I’ve met some who’ve done more than many other people (married or otherwise): one was a mayor, one ran an afterschool program, one ran a summer school in Ethiopia, lots of teachers, to name a few. I’m not saying I want to be a nun. I’m just saying that clearly it is possible to have a meaningful, fulfilling life sans husband and children.
This woman just comes off as someone who views men as walking wallets. Obviously this article is geared towards women who want children and a man to share them with. But then Gottlieb goes further and assumes that all 30-something women are going to start longing for children.
Another thing I dislike about the message is that it contains much sensible advice couched in a nasty, slimy use-him-as-a-provider-and-babysitter message. Yes, it makes sense to choose someone who may not have movie-star looks, but understands you. It’s a good thing to pick someone you can live with rather than someone who may make more money, but who is selfish and rude. If you want children *with* someone and you’re a woman, you have a much shorter time compared to a man to find someone to do this with you.
This article assumes that it’s okay to take advantage of a man’s feelings of love in exchange for financial stability and sharing the responsibilities of child raising. Or, at least, it assumes that men know that they’re being taken advantage of and are okay with that. If someone was dating Gottlieb at the time that this was published or in the future, how would they feel knowing that she’s evaluating them, not as someone who she would enjoy spending her life with, but as someone whose potential has more to do with job-sharing?
I’m amazed she didn’t come on out and just advise women to go to the nearest sperm bank. You hit on the fact that good advice was woven in with the nab the walking wallet advice. As long as the sap of a guy is there to “have children with” it seems to be ok in her book. If I were a guy this would make me feel even more naseous. I guess she couldn’t follow her own advice though.
I’ve always found the concept of “Mr. Right” to be a very odd one. Someone may be “Right” when you first meet them. Six months later some of the shine might have come off it and a few years later once you’re married even more will have come off. You might meet someone new when you’re already married who you think is more of a “Mr. Right” than your current “Mr. Right”. I’m inclined to believe that there is no “Mr. Right” and that media types and society shouldn’t put all this pressure on women to find “Mr. Right” or to “settle”. People change over time, hell every day, so the person you married is not the same person that you woke up to this morning. When it comes to kids…that’s something that, we’ve all said before, should be discussed long before people get married. It doesn’t matter if you’ve married “Mr. Right” because by the time the kiddies come along things will change, and in many women’s opinion he probably won’t be “Mr. Right” anymore because he doesn’t change nappies or do night feeds and would rather hang with his friends at the bar.
I’ve seen many articles which seem to hang on the old Romantic idea that there’s a Mr. Darcy for every woman out there, and that someone like Mr. Darcy will always be that perfect and never change. I never saw the attraction with Darcy (absolutely hated the book too, I’m far more into the slightly rough and intense police officers from all of your wonderful Police shows in the US), but I did understand that it was just a romantic ideal in a book. Now seems that it has been translated from a two century old book into some reality which is possible to find, and if you can’t, then second best will do and living with disappointment is how you should martyr yourself. Please, whatever happened to trying your best and achieving your potential instead of courting pity? And, as has been said, why slowly erode someone’s self-esteem by letting them realise that they are “second best”? That’s so damn selfish.
I have a firm belief that the view of “just settle” is the reason why people are unhappy in their marriages.
The following may make the usually practical me sound like a romantic, but a relationship without a passionate connection is not a relationship: it’s a roommate-with-benefits arrangement. How long can a person stand to live with someone, children or no children (that I’ll address momentarily), before one starts to say, “I have to get out of here, I feel nothing here.” To be in a relationship without emotional connection is draining and stifling, and if there are children involved, it’s all but a thinly veiled trap of convenience for the sake of the kids.
The issue of children… Now, the presumption that ALL thirtysomething women want children is fallacious. The idea that one should just find someone to mate with, for lack of better words, gives me the impression that the author thinks that women really do view men as walking sperm and dollar donors. Oh, it doesn’t matter that he has nothing in common with you, that he can’t keep an orderly environment, or that he could be abusive – if he’s good to have children with, he’s okay to settle for!
Puh-leeze.
I muchly agree with Dorian on this point: why slowly erode someone’s self-esteem? The author also assumes that the men in this equation have no feelings or self-worth of their own and should contend to being the sperm-and-dollar donors. That’s as insulting as reducing a woman to the product of her uterus. A person is a person, regardless of gender. That includes feelings as well.
And regardless of who may or may not show up, the assumption that someone will end up full of regrest if they don’t follow the LifeScript(tm) is foolish. Usually, it’s the people that assume people have regrets are the ones with them.
“So if you rarely see your husband—but he’s a decent guy who takes out the trash and sets up the baby gear, and he provides a second income that allows you to spend time with your child instead of working 60 hours a week to support a family on your own—how much does it matter whether the guy you marry is The One?”
So…this woman is basically telling people to use men. First off, for their sperm so that you can have children. Second, for their money, so you can stay home with said children. Finally, for their “manliness”, so they can take care of the “man things” around the house. Is she serious? What about love? What about companionship? What about friendship? Instead, she advises just finding a decent guy since you won’t see much of him anyways once you have kids. Ridiculous.
Ridiculous and not a little insulting. And she is selling a book with this kind of twaddle. It seems when one wants a baby trampling over anything decent goes.
I think one of the biggest advantages of being childfree as a woman, is that we can take all the time we want playing around in the dating pool, because we don’t have a biological clock that is urging us to just flip a penny and get it over with.
Just in time for Valentine’s Day–the romantic notion of human beings as commodities!
I recently read an interview with this author on Salon where she lamely tries to justify the choice of title for her book–which is clearly button pushing as sales tool. The very idea that she and her list making brethren are so exceptional as human beings that they (used to) have lists of requirements that must be met for someone to earn their affection and attention screams narcissist to me–and immediately discounts them as desirable partners for anyone.
The men they choose must reflect well on them in the world so that they can be perceived to “have it all” because they deserve it all and should be envied by their equally shallow and self absorbed friends. Now that Ms. Gottlieb who btw, suffers from an eating disorder (hmmm, deal breaker?) has realized that her perfect man doesn’t exist and if he does, he doesn’t want her, she’s revising her position, but still believes highly enough of herself that she will be marrying down should anyone deem to touch her with a ten foot pole now.
I know women like her, and in my opinion from firsthand observation, it’s not because they can’t find a man good enough for them that they remained single in their 20’s, 30’s, or 40’s, it’s because spending more than five minutes in their company would make any sane man want to chew his arm off. One woman in particular that I can think of has a list that includes: Ivy League-advanced degree, 6 ft min. six-figure income min, good family (money), proper social circles (Anglo Saxon/money), athletic and handsome (objectively). Note the complete lack of positive character traits in the list. Somebody appears to be watching too many reality TV shows.
To be fair, I also know men like her. They hold out for the Ivy League educated, Victoria’s Secret model/erotic dancer, NFL fan, gourmet cook, from a wealthy family who belongs to Mensa and teaches handicapped children in her spare time. When she doesn’t materialize (because she doesn’t exist) by the time they are forty, they may revise their requirements down to “young and hot”. Problem is, unless they have money that usually doesn’t work out for them either. And if it does, they purchased it– so can’t really object to being treated like walking cash machines. Whatever blows your hair back.
It’s interesting that even in her back-peddling/explanatory piece she could only find women who agreed with her. Supposedly. You make an excellent point about happy not being married – a point that Ms Gottlieb et al were clearly not (and therefore could not believe that anyone could have enough sense of self and self-worth I might add) to be content and happy whether or not they were married.It seems to have escaped her that people simply are not attracted to “needy” people… in her case her needing the man to furnish HER with a family do the “accepted” things so that other people can envy her. If I were a guy I’d be running in the other direction – fast.
Happiness comes from within… and it’s a choice. She clearly doesn’t believe that we’re complete in and of ourselves. The pity of it is there is no-one and nothing that can fill that void, certainly not a baby.
“Ivy League-advanced degree, 6 ft min. six-figure income min, good family (money), proper social circles (Anglo Saxon/money), athletic and handsome (objectively). Note the complete lack of positive character traits in the list. Somebody appears to be watching too many reality TV shows.”
LOL or reading too many “Mills and Boon” romance novels. I think they are called “Harlequin” in the States.
It seems to me like the underlying issue here isn’t even about dating at all; rather, its dissatisfaction with the way your life turned out, and instead of trying to make peace with it and move on, you just want to drag everyone down with with you. I have not read the book, but I did read the article in the Atlantic, and to me it just sounded like one big pity fest.
Everyone she qouted in the article seemed to be miserable- those who were single were miserable, those who were married were miserable (but less so, so apparently its best just to get married so you will be less miserable than your single counterparts), it was just sad. But one part that did annoy me was when she said that people who are over 30, single, and are actually-gasp!- happy are “just kidding themselves”. And those who are in their 20’s (like me) and truly, HONESTLY believe that it’s better to be alone than settle, are “going to regret that when they actually turn 40.” Hmm, sounds similar the many “regret” bingos we as childfree people get all the time.
I wish someone could write a book about people who are actually satisfied with their lives: Despite what Ms. Gottleib may think, there REALLY are people out there who are satisfied being single, just like there are REALLY people out there who never regret their decision not to have children. Also, the way she depicted marriage in the article sounded terrible too. I’ve never been married so I can’t speak on it, but for those of you who have, is it really as mundane and sexless and like a “partnership running a boring non-profit business”, as she describes it?
I put it down to sour grapes on her part.She never experienced it, therefore it could not be.
“I ’ve never been married so I can’t speak on it, but for those of you who have, is it really as mundane and sexless and like a “partnership running a boring non-profit business”, as she describes it?” Speaking from personal experience, I can say categoricaly no. And I would never settle for something like that either. Life is far too short. Like Lee I was quite content not being married – and I’d agree that’s a big part of why I think it works.. that and because we are important to each other and respect each other.
Ms Gottlieb tried to imply something like respect for the people she referenced, but I didn’t find too much of it. And if one lacks repect for self or others it really is down hill from there.
Beyond the fact that Ms. Gottlieb is trying to make a lot of money selling her book and the more inflammatory and controversial it is, the more it will sell. She appears to believe that her experience is the only valid one. If she wasn’t happy being single in her 30’s then no one else could be–no one’s perspective exists or is valid but hers. If she were to acknowledge that one could be happy without being married then that may mean the origin of her misery lies within. Perhaps she doesn’t know how to be happy and it’s easier to blame her misery on lack of good men that on her personality or the psychology/issues that contributed to her eating disorder. If you live in such a way that you will be happy “when” this happens or that happens or this or that person appears, I fear you are doomed. Perhaps at the age of 42, that is what she is starting to realize.
Speaking as a happily married person who met her husband in her mid-30’s, if your only goal is to achieve a married state that then you will probably be dissatisfied with the outcome of that transaction. I was happy not being married (as Miss Q pointed out, which is why I think my marriage works. I wasn’t looking for someone to fill a void or my uterus and I was lucky enough to meet someone who I really liked to be with-every day– who made every experience even better. He has an optimism, enthusiasm and curiosity about people and the world that makes life a more interesting adventure and I feel truly blessed to know him, let alone be married to him. Is he perfect–no way. Am I? No way!! But when I look at him, I still get a feeling that takes my breath away because I respect him and admire the kind of person he is and because he treats me with the same respect and like I am important to him because of who I am and who “we” are together, not because of what he hopes to get from me.
It’s a pity Ms Gottlieb didn’t talk to a few childfree people. It would have done her (and those who applaud her) a world of good. But then, she wouldn’t, would she… except to say we’re kidding ourselves if we think we can be happy without babies and husbands. In her world,every woman over 30 is looking for a baby, a rich sperm bank and mediocrity… and not necessarily in that order. I guess they are the same ones who complain about how boring their marriages are.
I think she makes a good point that people should throw out their unrealistic expectations and get on with their lives. Where she goes wrong is in thinking that she is any better than the men she is settling for. Does she have a grasp of her own imperfections? Does she not realize that the man she settles for is also settling for her? Of course not – all she cares about is that she wants children, a task so important to her overinflated ego that it trumps all else. To me, this is just another example of a self-important parent – the catch is that she just hasn’t had the kids yet.
Someone mentioned that as childfree women we aren’t on a deadline – I’d like to second that!
I have no idea whether I would “settle” for someone just for the sake of having kids, but I think that the same part of that makes me childfree, is the part of me that makes me not the kind of person to settle, for anything, be it a man, a career, or whatever.
I’m glad it’s not a choice I have to make.
I hope you don’t mind me chiming in a second time, but I see something else with all of this settling thing. I remembered from when I used to know people in my peer group, and they had this very fixed idea of what they wanted in life. They wanted it because it is what their Mother had or wanted but never got. It was what their Mother told them they should always ’strive’ for. Forget self-worth, financial independence, a career, personal achievements – nah, screw those, just a man with money, a good job and who will give you babies. Once you’ve got babies, you’ve not only got the state at your behest (in the UK the benefits for having kids seem to be huge, largely regardless of your household income) but you’ve also got a man who is tied to you forever regardless of whether they want to be or not. They still have to support those kids, and the state will make them do so. There have been a number of cases of men being forced into bankruptcy and even suicide because they were so hounded by their ex-wives and the Child Support Agency for child support payments. I can’t help but feel that if there was a little more responsibility over this kind of life choice and fewer people followed the LifeScript(tm) then fewer lives would be destroyed by greed and martyrdom.
It’s a very pervasive attitude which will probably be around for a good while, as long as the ‘traditionalists’ who believe solely in a woman’s worth being Wife and Mother are peddling the crap to people. You’re set for life if you find someone who will pay your way and give you babies. Screw how it might make you emotionally feel and how you will go on to destroy not only yourself but your husband and children – at least you’re doing something that’s NORMAL. “Those people who aren’t married and who don’t have children…they’re not NORMAL dear, they’re wrong and they’ll realise it one day. You want to be NORMAL, don’t you dear?”
I believe it was Foucault who was onto something when he said (and I hugely paraphrase) that it’s easier to conform.
Why is it that those who define themselves as the most “NORMAL” usually scare the living daylights out of me. Double Yikes!
LOL, yest BG, they are Harlequin Romances in the U.S., also known as “bodice rippers”. Good work if you can get it.
Delighted with the perspectives and so happy I shared the link with Brit Girl. I read the book cover to cover and did find some relevant nuggets. Gottlieb talks about the dating market and one’s value in a way that resonates for this businessman. Also, she makes a fair distinction that the best date material isn’t necessarily the best for marriage.
I agree with many of the above critiques. And in particular, I feel she portrays men as a means to an end. Many of my single male friends are concerned that we are desired strictly for the sperm and the wallet. This book will add much fuel to that fire.
Thanks Brit Girl for this valuable site and bringing this wonderful group together!
“I wish someone could write a book about people who are actually satisfied with their lives: Despite what Ms. Gottleib may think, there REALLY are people out there who are satisfied being single, just like there are REALLY people out there who never regret their decision not to have children. Also, the way she depicted marriage in the article sounded terrible too. I’ve never been married so I can’t speak on it, but for those of you who have, is it really as mundane and sexless and like a “partnership running a boring non-profit business”, as she describes it?”
I’ve been married, and right now I’m happy being single. I walked away from the cheating husband, and then from the boyfriend who caught baby rabies, and recently from the guy who thought I should be his long distance bit on the side without his girlfriend knowing. I’m holding out for that special person who will adore me as much as I adore him. I do have a few requirements (and let’s be honest, we all have at least a few) – but some of the ‘lists’ these women have are retarded. I had a friend like that, who turned down every decent guy she met because there was something that didn’t meet her mile-long list of attributes. Thankfully, she grew up and wised up and is now happily married. See, it’s not that hard!
I absolutely agree that self worth and happiness comes from within, and nothing external can fill the void. I don’t believe you should settle in anything. Live your life for you. Do the things that inspire you. Hang with people you love whether they be family or not. Chase your dreams. If you meet someone to share that with, that’s awesome. if kids are part of your dreams, that’s awesome too. But this shallow life script stuff – ugh. I hope ‘it’s all worth it’.
Just a rant..
“My advice is this: Settle! That’s right. Don’t worry about passion or intense connection. Don’t nix a guy based on his annoying habit of yelling “Bravo!” in movie theaters. Overlook his halitosis or abysmal sense of aesthetics. Because if you want to have the infrastructure in place to have a family, settling is the way to go. Based on my observations, in fact, settling will probably make you happier in the long run, since many of those who marry with great expectations become more disillusioned with each passing year.”
Is this a speech from HELL?? This is exactly WHY I got my vasectomy!!…
I’m just amazed at what a low opinion of men Gottlieb has. She talks about relationships as if she a were a lawyer negotiating a corporate merger–”infrastructure in place to have a family”? Huh? I guess it doesn’t occur to her that men also have feelings about their relationships and want to feel cherished and valued as human beings not just serve as life facilitators for women who are indifferent to their needs. This woman doesn’t want a partner, she wants a daddy!
As was mentioned before, she must believe that any man she would settle for would be grateful to have her so would go along with her little scheme. This helps to explain why she’s alone–she doesn’t understand men very well at all. Her idea of an ideal couple is Will and Grace–need I say more?
And in her infinite wisdom, she fails to realize that in recommending that women settle so that they can set up a family infrastructure–children can sense when one parent does not respect the other because the disrespected parent projects that they are UNHAPPY. Duh! What does she think that the poor slob will be ecstatic with a peck on the cheek from her after he unclogs her drain (so to speak)? Great lesson to teach your kids about relationships–”it’s okay to use somebody to get your needs met honey, that’s why I married your father–you know that guy who pays all our bills and serves as our doormat.”
Can we expect her next book to cover the topic of higher divorce rates amongst those who settle? Gross, gross, GROSS! Send this title to the remainder shelf, please!
Reading the above comments, I am so glad that my own grandmother i supportive of me and my choices in life. She grew up at a time when a woman was expected to get married asap, pop out a few sprogs and put up with whatever hubby said and did. In her case she was married with kids by the time she was 18. Unfortunately her husband abused her, beat her up, and had another 3 kids with other women while he was married to her. So, against convention at the time she divorced him. She married again to a bloke who also thought it was acceptable to use her as a punchbag, and divorved again. Once she was “free”, living in poverty she decided to live the life she wanted, and became the first woman elected to lcoal government in the area she lived, she never dated again! She is old now yes, and has been single for decades but she says she was never happier than when she was single. One thing she always told me is NEVER “settle”, think more highly of yourself and pursue what you want to do. Obviously I dont want to have kids, despite pressure from the other side of my family (the crazy religous ethnic side) and I am glad that I had an alternative viewpoint to tell me that I didnt have to just marry and settle down.
My best friend is only 26, yet she is already panicking about finding a bloke to have kids with. she wonders why she isnt getting dates, but even I can smell the desperation at times – she wants a sperm donor with a bit of cash and what bloke would want that, really?
Interestingly, an older female friend tells me that post menopause dating is very different to pre-menopause dating and far more relaxed because both parties know they are seeking a relationship and not an incubator/sperm donor. And this from a woman who has got kids!
I just did an article on my blog about women who are obsessed with marriage and kids by a certain date. I saw a letter in The Sun from some bitch who was complaining that her boyfriend’s charity work wage wasn’t enough because she wants to be a SAHM one day. I had to blog about it, it was just too tragic.
I read that article a couple of weeks ago, and I thought, “She’s crazy as hell.” Women have a lot more to lose if they just settle so they can say they have a man. I’ve seen too many women — including my mother — struggle and struggle to get over the damage that a Mr. Wrong had done. Some never recover.
Getting a Mr. Good Enough is not only a poor antidote to solve loneliness, but it is also a conforming to others’ ideas of social standards. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of women got married to fit in and supposedly be acceptable. Then the women are miserable by the sub-standard husband and annoying kids that may follow. It’s better to be alone than miserable.
In a movie there was this line: “There is no Mr Right, there’s only Mr Right Here”, which I find to be very true. And if there’s no Mr Right Here, then we shouldn’t be afraid to “be alone”.
This is my first post here, so sorry to be jumping in with opinions blazing. I really like the perspectives and thoughtful comments here.
But I don’t think this article deserves the hostility it’s getting. It’s simply not directed at the Childfree.
Sure, there are the odd presumptions like, “And all I can say is, if you say you’re not worried, either you’re in denial or you’re lying.” But even that isn’t so ridiculous.
I’m a 38 year old childfree male. Finally got a vasectomy last year as a single guy, and though I am confident it was the right choice, sure I worry. A good friend told me something before I got it done. “Yeah, you will regret it from time to time,” she said, “don’t let that freak you out. Don’t panic. It doesn’t mean it was the wrong choice.” I arrived at my childfree status slowly over the course of my 20s and early 30s, and many hard knocks contributed to my developing assurance of my feelings. I’ve let more than a couple of good relationships go over the kids issue, and I sometimes find that sad. Some of my friends have pretty cool kids and there’s always that romantic idea of the bustling family filling your life blocking out the loneliness. Then I remember, “waitaminnit! I hate bustle. I can’t stand endless demands on my time, I like solitude and slack time and quiet and even loneliness, whose best cure really is a hobby and not other people anyway.”
People need to have a realistic and tempered idea of what marriage and kids really is before they can hope to develop a solid opinion about whether it is for them or not. Among my friends who have children, which is most of them now, I am very much impressed by those who are willing to give it to you straight and tell you how tough it is, sometimes how if they had it to do over again, they would have made different choices. Those who aren’t afraid to reduce it to “running a boring non-profit.” My own father told me he would not have had kids. I think it’s a very different thing than saying he regrets it. And I do believe her advice is good for any kids that actually do result. Kids don’t care about the passion of their parents, they want a stable home life and no custody battles.
Whatever Ms. Gottlieb is guilty of, it is a far less serious offense than those of her poor deluded audience who have swallowed the fairytale bullshit of Mr. Right and Mr. Right’s oh so right sperm.
I actually believe the childfree have a different opportunity, which they are ignoring with their own romantic ideals of Mr./Miss Right. Specifically, let’s ask why is every relationship that ends considered a failure? Those who do not have the need to prepare a permanent nest to raise hatchlings in are still tied to the idea that the next love must be the last love. That no more may ever come. That you must sever contact with your exes in your rampant search for Your One instead of being comforted by your own journey and the people who move through it. It’s a poor way of looking at the world. I don’t think killing the Mr./Miss Right ideal means you must love less fully.
“Specifically, let’s ask why is every relationship that ends considered a failure? Those who do not have the need to prepare a permanent nest to raise hatchlings in are still tied to the idea that the next love must be the last love. That no more may ever come. That you must sever contact with your exes in your rampant search for Your One instead of being comforted by your own journey and the people who move through it. It’s a poor way of looking at the world. I don’t think killing the Mr./Miss Right ideal means you must love less fully.”
I love this paragraph and totally agree.
So far all of my relationships have ended but none have been a failure – they have all contributed hugely to my life and personality. I remain friends with all of my exes (excepting those 2-3 week flings that don’t really count) and in fact most of my closest friends are ex boyfriends. They’re lovely guys – that’s why I dated them! They just weren’t right for me *beyond a certain period of time*.
My last relationship still makes me smile when I think of it and to me that’s a big success!
I think it’s part of our general fear of death – whether it be death in the literal sense, or simply death in the sense of things ending and new things beginning. Why we are so afraid of something that is such an important ingredient of life is beyond me. It’s like being afraid of darkness – yet imagine if there was no light: we’d never sleep and we’d all die of skin cancer!
In short, I’m happy to spend some time alone, while also looking forward to the next “one”, knowing full well that he is only really one OF the ones.
“…part of our general fear of death.” Spot on.
Lori is the kind of woman I’d have a tendency to avoid. She just seems to be replacing one set of preconditions in looking for “Mr. Right” with one where the man will give her a child nonetheless. I mean, they’re virtually the same precondition!
The amount of times I’ve been told to settle for a man! Personally, I’ve no interest in having a relationship. There is no rush for me after all. Secondly, I feel complete without another person in my life. If I ever met someone that I clicked with and actually wanted to spend the rest of my life with then so be it. However, I don’t aspire to it and if I stay single then I’m not going to be too concerned.
I got told only last week that I should hurry up and find myself a man before it’s too late for me. Apparently it becomes harder to find a partner the older you get but I’m not one to go and chase after something just because I “should” and not because I genuinely want it. Not wanting children does not mean I need to settle fast and pop a few whilst I’m still young.
Gottlieb’ s ideas are so stupid to begin with, they don’t even have a connection with wanting children anymore. I’m 22 and in a relationship with the same boy for 6 years. Yup, that’s right, since I was 16. He was my best friend ever, and still is, and then my highschool sweetheart and now my lover. Although we had our shares of fights (inevitable when you’re growing up) and saw other people, right now I can’t even imagine being with someone else for ever. Now I had a lot of friends telling me what a great guy he is, but that “I could do more” and that I’m just settling with what I’ve got. What’s that supposed to mean?
I think that in any relationship, common ground with common taste, fantasies and pleasures is the most basic thing to look for. It’s all uphill from there.
But not wanting men just to herd your kids. It’s treating them like absolute crap. Like women were treated until a century ago. Geez…. Look for a friend, not a sperm donor!
As annoying as when the question “when are you going to have kids?” is the question “When are you going to get married?”
I want to get married, my partner doesn’t really care either way. We’ve been together the better part of a decade… one year shy actually. We’ve lived together. We own a house together. We have a cat and a dog.
But everyone implies that you have to get married, well, except for our families.
Marriage is in the some day category and kids are some day after that. My niece just had a baby and that made me realize that I’m not ready for kids.
For now, I love my partner and we are completely happy with life as it is.
I hate this idea that a woman’s life is incomplete without marriage and babies. Seriously, it’s so insulting. I am happily married, but I never felt like I HAD to be with a man to be happy. I think that we should be telling young women that they have the tools to make their own lives meaningful, and that relationships are a fantastic addition, but not a requirement, for happiness. I was happy as a single woman. I’m happy as a married woman. I didn’t settle at all. I was prepared for the possibility of being single for the rest of my life, especially after a string of dates with men who turned out to be desperate to procreate. I knew I didn’t want kids, and if I couldn’t find a man who shared that view, well, I was ok with that. Sure, I wanted to get married, but I never felt like I needed to.
In fact, the idea of being with the wrong person is a hell of a lot scarier than the idea of being single.
“In fact, the idea of being with the wrong person is a hell of a lot scarier than the idea of being single.”
My thoughts exactly.
I was always happy as a singleton and my experince now is that marriage has made life even more fun. I do remember feeling that when you’re single EVERYONE seems to be coupled up or wanted to be coupled up. Now I’m married I seem to meet more single people – and in many cases when they tell me what they are looking for in a man -often ridiculous things – I think “you are going to be waiting a long, long time”) I think it’s fine to have a goal to meet someone to share your life with if that’s what a person wants – but like you say, it should be a want not a need and I believe it has to come from a position of completeness. Being needy is the way to send men running in the other direction. Whereas there’s something really attractive about people who are already comfortable with themselves.
I would didn’t and would never settle… I think it does a disservice to both people.
I think that the book’s premise makes complete and total sense. If you are 37 and want some perfect man – 6′2 Clive Owen look-alike surgeon who spends his free time volunteering at a dog shelter and hiking – to come along and give you money, kids and a house, you need to wake up and start scrambling around for ANY man who will give you kids, and if he doesnt beat you and is employed – well then, super! Women in their 30’s who honestly think some millionaire supermodel is coming along any minute to sweep them off their feet and breed and are holding out for that guy are crazy and need to tone their expectations waaaay down – do you have wrinkles? starting to sag? A bit world weary and sun damaged? Divorced? Have kids? Yeah, guess what. Rich, hot, successful guys are not coming to father your litter and if someone doesnt come along soon, you’ll be adopting infants from Malawi a la Madonna. Alone.
That’s just the way it is. You had a short window of opportunity, if you were ever good looking to begin with, to reel in a gorgeous, successful man in his prime. If you’re 20 years out of high school, you missed it some years back. So if you want kids, you have to quickly assess what is realistic for you. And just like the guy you settle for, guess what, he is also settling. He also never imagined he’d be with some middle aged woman with grey hairs and cellulite. But you want kids.
How great is it to be child free! Never have to settle. Marry when you meet the right person, not “before 30.” Yes, having unrealistic expectations is never going to work, so look in the mirror and see what you offer, then see if what you expect is reasonable. But without the deadline due to breeding requirements, we can develop ourselves into the best version of us that we can be, at any age. Then we can meet a person who cares for us and who we enjoy! How sad to rush around like a game of musical chairs to land a man before the bio mommy music stops. I am so glad I got married for the right reasons – to live and experience life with a person I love. How sad for people who don’t get that.