The issue of friendship has been on my mind for some time, triggered by a few events. I’ve written quite a few posts about Chidlfree friendships on this blog ranging from how to find new friends – to the way our friendships change if one of the friends starts having children. If you are new to this blog you are probably yet to read them… so do a search on friendship and they’ll come up. They’re all in the archive and here are 3 of them below:
Childfree – What happened to our Friendship?
Childfree – What Happens to Your Friendships
Childfree – Friendships Change
Rather than repeat exactly what’s in the posts – you can read each of them – I’ll write about some of my recent observations.
The first one hasn’t changed. If you’re childfree and single, start planning from the get-go to make new friends. Because once the people you went to Uni with start having kids the chances of your being left out on a limb are high. I hear many childfree people say (disturbingly I might add) that they hope their friendships won’t change. Here’s the thing. They WILL change, and, as far as you are concerned, not for your benefit. If you’re lucky you will spot this way in advance of the arrival of the kids. And even if you yourself like children, it probably won’t be enough. The farther removed you are the better… but in these days of Facebook distance is becoming irrelevant. Recently a friend of ours had a baby. We’re all friends not just on FB but in actual fact. But I knew the inevitable photos of the baby were going to be a staple… in fact FB friends had a ringside seat (regardless right up and during the birth). Well, some might say, you can just de-friend or block or otherwise hide all the updates (Thankfully they are less now). No, in some cases you can’t. It isn’t that simple.
As my hubs and I are both childfree it’s less bothersome. Not only do we have each other to do stuff with, we have our own interests. We’re fortunate that even with a baby in this case the friendships will still be there (albeit perhaps less frequent outings) but the point is it wouldn’t be a huge deal if it wasn’t. And as long as we are not expected to baby-sit or coo over babies or get lectures about how we ought to try it because it’s the “best thing in the world” I’m still cool.
Most won’t be as fortunate and the dynamic will drastically change. That means you need to think about and plan for developing new friendships, hopefully with other childfree folk.
As someone mentioned though – you may not know who is Childfree and who isn’t. I don’t ask the kid question. I don’t define myself by childfree-ness at all, I have many ways of defining myself. Most parents define themselves by virtue of their children (sad but true) so you usually find out within minutes if they have children or not. I don’t know any childfree people who bring up that they don’t have kids as a conversation topic. At all. It only comes up in response to some reference to kids – usually the parent asking if they a – have them or b – want them.
So here’s my tip. And this is what I did. Look for activities where like minded people hang out and start there. You may have to set them up yourself if they don’t already exist. For example I recently set up my modern jive dance school. It’s exciting and I am loving it. I teach beginners to dance. I blogged some time back when I started my new venture and in it I asked the following:
And while we’re on the subject of social activities… in terms of childfree fun social activities what are the ones you do? How easy is it to find them? I find as a couple more of my friends have babies, it’s even harder to find childfree activities where people don’t come around to the “so, do you have kids?” question. Is that the case? What do you think?
Interestingly I got all of 2 comments on that. Kawi and Lurker (thanks guys!). So here’s your chance.
While I’ve been too busy to go to the childfree get togethers I’ve made more friends. Most who come to Modern Jive are single. We have more guys than girls – which is great. Or they are couples – no kids. I organize monthly dance socials at our local pub where we get together dance, have a drink and get to know each other a little better. And my hubs now dances – yep, modern jive. He’s pretty good at it too.
I am not saying everyone should rush out and set up dance classes, but when it comes to creating new friendships they are not going to drop into our laps, chances are we have to go out and make them happen. I tried going to the gym – it’s the most isolating thing imaginable. I much prefer doing things than sitting around talking… somehow when you have a shared activity it’s easier.
If you’re married i don’t think the pressure is as great. And I rarely hear guys complain (because they still seem to be able to get together. Or maybe they’re better at finding new friends) it almost always hits women the hardest. If married it is still great to know other childfree couples to do things with. If you are single just know that, just as we discussed some years ago, friendships can change abruptly when a child makes and appearance. 99% of the time you will have nothing in common with the new parent/s. You will have to accommodate and adjust to them, not the other way around. They won’t have time to hang out with you and that’s just the way it is.
Rather than let it devastate you or let it get you down or worse side-swipe you – you can prepare. With childfree blogs and discussions like this there’s really no excuse any more not to be prepared. The sooner the better.
Again… on the subject of social activities… in terms of childfree fun social activities what are the ones you do? How easy is it to find them? I find as a couple more of my friends have babies, it’s even harder to find childfree activities where people don’t come around to the “so, do you have kids?” question. Is that the case? What do you think?
Share your thoughts on the post.
{ 32 comments… read them below or add one }
My husband and I aren’t involved in activities, but he (military) works with many, many people from whom to pick and choose who to invite out for a drink. He always goes for the child-free, but there aren’t many of them.
Interesting thing about invariably talking about kids when you’re out with parents who have kids. I find the same thing happens when you’re out with people who have pets.
But, we have cats, so we don’t mind this at all.
True there are not many of. Them. And you are fortunate if you know who they are in advance. That bit of info is often hard to find.
Today we are going to spend the day with some friends. They have a 3 year old boy. They know we’re not kid enthusiasts so it was actually funny when they hastened to assure us he’ll be good. We are not “anti-kid” so it doesn’t matter to me. I am actually looking forward to seeing them. They are so thrilled we are coming to spend time with them. Sometimes things like this can be tricky for childfree people. I often wonder how many others encounter it.
I also find some people with pets tend to go on and on about them. I find it just as irritating.
“…when you’re out with parents who have kids.”
Ugh.
I liked it before when you had an editing option!
Hi Kristen. I will look into the editing option. I thought it was working. Thanks for commenting!
Oh, it’s not a problem, the lack of an editing option. You can’t edit on most sites, anyway. I just get too sloppy and then go “snrk!” when I can’t fix my own errors.
I’m glad you continue to post on this topic. My husband and I are childfree by choice and we’ve found ourselves having to reevaluate friendships each year as more of our friends get married and have children. Friends that choose to have children usually become one-sided friendships for us. In most cases the woman in the relationship just can’t get away plus I tire easily of endless chatter about how adorable little Jr. is while eating cereal. (Thankfully we’re not on facebook, but I digress.)
Of all the groups of friends we’ve made all but one couple has completely lost themselves in parenthood. A life can exist outside of children but that concept is lost on most new parents.
We have yet to meet other childfree by choice couples in our mid-sized city in the Midwest but we remain hopeful!
Thanks for letting me rant!
This subject is hitting my wife pretty hard right now. The couple that lives closest to us had a kid a couple of months ago. We’ve seen them a few times since, and they even forced me to hold the thing once, but I really don’t like children. At all. And I’m getting tired of hearing about the kid.
One of my wife’s best friends just told her she is prego. My wife is really worried about not having these people as friends. It’s gotten to the point where she told me she might want to have kids just so she can keep these people as friends. I told her pretty early on I don’t ever want kids and that this is NO reason to force another mouth to feed on the world. I also made it clear that if we DID ever have a kid, it would be number one in both of our lives. My wife would be relegated to #2. I think that shocked her enough to put it off for awhile.
I’m just not sure what to do for my wife. We are always trying to find new friends, but it’s hard. I tend to be shy around people I don’t know.
@Beowuff – you can encourage your wife to start thinking ahead and keep on looking to make new friends. Look for activities rather than friends. Through which you both can meet people. Many people are shy when they don’t know people however if you both take the step to organise something it is less uncomfortable.
One thing is certain. Her best friend will expect your wife to have a healthy interest in her pregnant. And to be equally excited about the baby. The pregnant friend WILL find other friends easily – other mothers. So, instead of your wife thinking about having babies to stay friends ( a stupid idea if there ever was one) she needs to see the writing on the wall start distancing herself and actively finding new friends.
I always refuse to hold newborns. I just say no – as does my husband. I just tell the parents I might drop the kid – that seems to work but a firm no thanks is even better. Parents seem to think that holding a baby magically transfers baby-wanting fuzzies to the childfree person. If one wants to hold the baby fine. But if they do not it’s annoying they insist on it.
It was interesting reading.
As I approach the end of my thirties I have for first time come to terms with that I for very REAL could be living my life without children. Even if I suddenly changed my mind a child would be a serious challenge from now on. Actually it feels more like a relief since now its in a way out of my hands. I am no longer just someone going against the main stream with purpose, my age simple makes children less possible (even if I am a man).
I wonder if age would make it easier to keep up with friends in future, especially as their kids grow older?
Britgirl: Why do you deny to hold a newborn? Is it because you do not want to goo-goo over it or any other reason. Sorry, just curious?
@Lurker… They are quite fragile and I really don’t want to drop them. And often because I am really not interested in holding them. I have held new born babies before several times (so it’s not that I’ve never ever done so) . It’s just that if I don’t feel like holding babies then I won’t do it.
I find if If I am asked “would you like to hold him/her” it’s expected the answer is always yes and people get offended or puzzled if you say no and start insisting you hold the baby until you say yes. In situations like that I just say no. Nothing wrong with going goo-goo over babies… that can happen whether one holds them or not. The other thing I’ve found is that on the odd occasion I have said ok the next thing is I hear is “aww… you should have one, don’t you want your own?” or something similar. They never give up.
My husband’s always being asked to hold small babies and he won’t do it. When he says no thanks, he might drop it, the parents almost try and force him to hold the baby…and he still won’t. I also learned recently that mothers have to say yes… to confirm their mommy cred.
the comments about holding new babies made me laugh – a friend had a baby last year and we finally met up a few weeks ago. I actually asked to hold the baby but she responded “erm, probably not, no” and then fastened her back in the buggy! Nice to know I am trusted after years of friendship, but there you go.
My partner and I were friends of this couple for years, my other half and the man of that couple went to school together. Yet since they got pregnant we have heard from them twice – when the woman got in touch to arrange to meet me, and when we actually met. My partner has had a lot of health problems on and off over the years and she asked me about that when we met. I told her he was having a bad spell, and happened to mention that her OH had not been in touch. Her reply? “Oh, well no he’s a father he doesn;t have time for that kind of nonsense.”
So that was a heartwarming way to find out what years of friendship amounted to. Needless to say, we haven’t been in touch again. Now my best friend is getting ready to start planning her family and I am scared I will lose her friendship. I really hope not we have been through a lot together and she has finally accepted that I do not want kids and the reasons why so I have hope that maybe our friendship can survive. Watch this space…
A place where I have found CF friends is through volunteering. I am heavily involved in four wildly different non-profits, and well over 80% of the volunteers are CF/CL or have older children (who are therefore not the only/main topic of conversation).
In my experience, the only “volunteering” my childed friends do is at their kids’ school (which I would call “being a good parent” rather than “volunteering.”)
As a plus, you are doing some good work, plus the people you meet are likely to have that interest in common with you.
I have had similar experiences while volunteering at my local animal shelter. The staff and other volunteers could not care less whether I have children — in fact, they are probably glad that I don’t because that means I am more readily available to serve.
Most of my “buddies” at the shelter are retirees who either don’t have children or they don’t talk about their children/grandchildren. We are all too busy swapping stories about our animals.
Maybe you can maintain friendships with people with children, but maybe you can’t. Either way, it’s better to just fade out of a friend’s life than it is to be a fifth wheel or worse, cause some kind of problem. Personally, I think I am doing a my parented friends a favor by not maintaining the relationship, even if I seem like I’m being rude in the process (honestly, I doubt parents even really notice). I know my parent-friends are super-busy and stressed-out and need support from other parents. I have nothing for them except a “Good luck with that.” I also don’t want to run afoul of an overprotective parent and I would be too worried I would say something that would offend them or commit some sin of omission by not doting incessantly on their child. Who wants or needs that?
I agree that going on the offensive early is the smartest thing you can do. As soon as the EPT test reads ‘positive’ take evasive action. Solidify your own life and interests and develop relationships that can’t be upended by the arrival of kids and you’ll be so much better off.
Great writing and sharp observations as usual, BritGirl.
Somehow people with kids forget that they used to have friends, and now everything is about their kid this, their kid that. I trust that not matter if you have kids or not, you are still you. Of course that priorities change, but friends shouldn’t.
My partner & I are childfree. We just finished a 5 week scuba certification course & it was full of singles & no one talked about kids at all
As scuba is a buddy sport, it’s a great place to meet new people, most of whom either don’t have kids, or they’re all grown up & not part of the conversation.
I have several friends with kids, and the friends ship have pretty much stayed the same. I don’t see them as much, but I am ok with that, and that is partly b/c I live in a different city so I only see friends when i am home visiting anyway. But they don’t make everything about their kids. they also understand I don’t want kids and don’t try to change my mind about it. i have childfree friends as well, most of them are single though. it seems like I make more new friends with younger people who don’t have kids though b/c they tend to have more time and more in common than I do with people who have kids. I guess I am lucky that my friendships with my parent friends have pretty much stayed the same. They even go out of the way to make sure their kids are not bothering us while we hang out, or we make plans to hang out while their kids are in school or visiting grandma or whatever.
I’m in the same boat. I’m in my early 30s, so many of my married friends are on their first (or second) children (I’m married, too, but kids are not a priority for me or my husband – we’re quite likely never going to have any and ok if that’s the case). The friendships don’t feel as if they’ve changed too much, but then again, most of us are living in different cities now, so I don’t see them all the time and most of the interaction is through email or Facebook. Luckily I haven’t been subjected to overwhelming baby/parenting overshare from them (inlaws are a completely different story, which is why I am thankful for the “hide” option). I usually give my new parent friends a few months of “OMG so excited to be parents!” type posts, after which they return to sanity and quit making every single post about their kid(s). I like knowing about how they & their kids are doing as long as it’s not the only thing their posts are about – in most cases, I’m happy for them as parenthood is the result of a lot of soul-searching and thoughtful planning on their parts (and so far they’re not pushing me to follow in their footsteps – I’ll be far less charitable if that circumstance changes).
I think it really depends on the type of people your friends are – parenthood seems to really bring into focus who your real friends are and who are friends only when you’re convenient/useful to them. The friends who really put in a lot of thought and planning into their decision to be parents are the friendships that have changed very little – we aren’t able to talk as often, and visits require more planning and have less spontaneity, but they don’t bombard me with bingoes and don’t treat my life as “less important/less meaningful” just because I have chosen not to hop on the babytrain. I’m not interested in having kids of my own, but I’m looking forward to being the crazy, fire-spinning, tattooed “auntie” with embarrassing stories about their parents before they got “old.”
The friends who act otherwise are the friends I let drift into “acquaintance” territory. In some cases I’m sorry to see them go, but sometimes it’s almost a relief go our separate ways. So bottom line is that I don’t really care if my friends become parents as long as the level of mutual respect remains on an acceptable level.
As for making new friends, most of the time it does seem as if the new friends I make around my age are single, although there have been a few couples (married or not) who aren’t interested in having kids. A lot of it is based of mutual interests/activities, so taking classes/joining social groups are a good way of making new friends, I think, especially if they are hobbies that might be difficult taking up if you have kids, like, say, circus acrobatics (then again, the city studio that offers classes like that for beginners & professionals has a really popular aerial ropes class taught by a married couple who had a baby 8 months ago – and they’re AMAZING, so I guess there are always exceptions).
Gak, this is so, so hard! I’m in Scandinavia now, and between the very high social benefits and the very high unemployment rate right now, just about every woman between 20 and 35 is pregnant or just had a baby. And people here are cold and unfriendly, anyway. Everyone has a circle of friends already, so as a foreigner it’s really hard to make friends. I know if I had a kid and could participate in the baby blather, it’d be easier. But since I can’t stand them, I’m pretty much resigned to just being miserable and lonely for the time we’re here. Of course I have my husband, but I miss having girlfriends very much.
Britgirl: thanks for reply. If I experienced bingos after holding the baby I would probably escape such situations in the future. I kind of put on a game-face with the children around, but always keep my distance since I really do not want to get too close to the fire. I have noticed how some parents kind of consider you less an alien if you pick up the kid and since I can give it back it is usually no big deal for me.
If I have problems with friends who are parents I usually remind myself all the perks I got as CF. I cant participate in the diaper-talk or how expensive the public services for kids have become. But I find such talk repulsive and always bless my own life when it comes up. Seem to me that a lot of CF knows how to fill their lives with travel, professional life and hobbies. If you manage to have an active life, does it really matter if you can bring your old friends or not?
I do plan to find places were it is more likely to find other CF, but I have come to terms with my situation and understand that I cant depend on others to find happiness. Any activities with friends are more a bonus than a longing.
“Seem to me that a lot of CF knows how to fill their lives with travel, professional life and hobbies. If you manage to have an active life, does it really matter if you can bring your old friends or not?”
Couldn’t agree more. Friends come and friends go for a variety of reasons. Best thing to do is to accept the natural ebb and flow of friendships.
I’m a member of a church where four women are pregnant at the same time, and their kids are due practically back to back from each other. I’m already dreading the endless baby conversations. I’ve opted out of attending an upcoming baby shower because frankly, baby showers don’t interest me much.
I know two of the women fairly well, but I’m sure the relationship between them and I will change as they won’t have much time for anything outside of their kids. They are way more conservative in their thinking than I am, and one appears to be perfectly content to be a stay-at-home mom once she gives birth.
The number of friends I have that don’t have children has always been small. I don’t see any change in this.
Hi all
I think this blog is brilliant.
Strangely enough I do have a kid but prefer not to label myself purely by that, and have found the friends that I have spent time with and loved throughout my life are the ones who know and appreciate me as me, not by my marital or parental status. Our friendships ebb and flow due to relationships, where we live (several have lived abroad for a few years), the arrival of kids etc but usually they emerge from the toddler-dom/the other country to resume their previous selves and carry on as before, even if we do see each other less frequently.
I love going out supping sauvignon blanc with friends who don’t want to compare so-and-so’s nappy or feeding schedule. The bliss of intelligent conversation!
I think all of society would be better if we all recognised each other as people first, and the rest came second.
*getting off soap box*.
Hi Mel, you reminded me of one of my friends. She has a little daughter and lives in England. Whenever I go home to visit I go and see her she bemoans the lack of adult conversation. She’s always pleased to see us… she jokes we confirm her brain hasn’t turned into a cabbage
. Also reminded me of a girlfriend I have here… she has 2 boys but she’s always game to go out for a drink when she can… you reminded me I have to set up a date with her. I haven’t seen her in ages. Thanks for commenting.
I’ve had a realization after spending a weekend in the country with a friend and her three children, all younger than 4 years old. It’s easier to be friends with people who have kids if you meet them after they have kids. 1) you expct a lot less – there is no history of nights on the town, single life, sleepovers, 2 hour long phone chats. You see them as they are and what they can offer and you like them. Or not. 2) They like you and don’t expect more from you due to history. 3) They have kids and they are who they are. They already mad ethe life change into parenthood and you don’t have to be there through it or to adjust to the major personality shift.
As for my old friends who’ve had kids – some want to stay in touch, get together, take a night off to go be 19 again. Some don’t. And some people have been looking for a reason to stop being friends and can now sigh with relief that they always have the excuse of a child for the fade-out of the relationship.
A good friend of mine has been lamenting her difficulties in getting pregnant, because she is sick of having to try to fit in with all the girls in her town (a small town of 2500 people) and when she has kids she won’t have to bother with it anymore.
She obviously sees kids either as an automatic pass into a certain friendship group, or she sees them an an excuse to leave the friendship group entirely… who knows.
I found it really sad.
As for me, I am yet to see any of my friendships suffer as none of my close friends have kids yet. Time will tell I guess.
It’s natural that people with kids will see their non-childed friends less, as they will have less in common. I think og27 above made a relevant point – if we can adjust our expectations we will be less disappointed. It’s similar to the way friendships falter over distance – you just can’t catch up as much and don’t have as much in common. You could feel sad that you’ve lost the friend, or you could feel glad that you still have them in your life, albeit in a different way.
I also often lose friendships because I remain friends with exes, and when they get a new girlfriend it’s always “BAM, your ex girlfriend is a witch, you are banned from seeing her”. I’ve now come to expect that I will lose these friendships when a woman comes on the scene – unless the woman is mature and sensible, which sadly they never are! So it doesn’t hurt as much these days.
I think friendships *should* change throughout life, constantly. It’s part of growth. But there should also be a few that stick around no matter what, and they’re the ones I’d hate to lose. The rest come and go as with anything else in life.
I opine that to receive the home loans from banks you ought to present a good reason. Nevertheless, once I have received a collateral loan, because I wanted to buy a building.
Thanks for the interesting posts and comments. I have been connecting with other childfree people using meetup to find the local childfree group in my area and joining it and going to their events. It takes a long time to find people you click with enough to be good friends but in the meantime it’s good to have friendly acquaintances to socialize with and social events that don’t revolve around children.
I was wondering if you or any of your readers has encountered my parent friend situation. Several close friends have small children (1-3 yrs old). When I visit these parent friends, I don’t ignore their kids but I don’t try to engage them and I politely decline when they ask me to play with them or read a book to them. I’ve gotten the message from my parent friends that this behavior (not being interested in interacting with their children) is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I don’t know what to do. Has anyone else faced this situation?
Not sure how they can be friends when they insist you do something you’re not interested in doing. I’d stop going to see them. If they ask why tell them.
Thanks! I will try to do that. They aren’t insisting so much as letting me know that my behavior is hurtful to them, but it ends up at the same place.
and on the same topic…article called:
Advice for a woman who wants to spend time with her friend without her children
http://www.slate.com/id/2262968/