I saw the article about the restaurant that decided enough was enough and banned misbehaving children under a certain age. And I was cheered to read that several other kinds of companies (like airlines) are now actively moving towards child-free flights and services. I think it is long overdue.
Of course some irate parents have decided to view it as discrimination (rolls eyes) but they are probably the ones whose kids scream the loudest. Personally I think it’s actually the parents who should be banned – that is, the parents who, when their child is acting up, either ignore or just seem oblivious. Unless they are taught otherwise they will act up and scream if they see it gets them what they want – every time they do it. Some children HAVE been taught otherwise are are well behaved in adult places. Unfortunately the other screaming kids (unconcerned kids-will-be-kids parents) spoil it for the others.
I’m taking a trip to England this week. I normally hope and pray there are no screaming kids on board. Or if they are they are not sitting right by me. I hope that some tot isn’t sitting in the seat behind me kicking my seat no matter how many times I tell him to stop it. It’s expensive to fly. I think I (and everybody else for that matter) deserves to enjoy my flight in peace and if banning ill-behaved kids gets us there, so be it.
Perhaps now parents will sharpen up and teach their kids it’s not OK to yell and scream or kick in adult establishments. It also says that people are having less and less patience with ill behaved kids or their parents who are responsible for them. I think we will hear less of the “well, they are only children” refrain. Don’t bring them to good restaurants, or fly with them if you can’t stop them yelling.
Of course this doesn’t refer to the parents who DO ensure their kids are either well behaved or who exit with them when they start acting up.
What do you think? Over the top or about time? Check out the comments on the article too.
Thanks to the reader who sent me this link! I hadn’t seen this one but your sending it prompted me to write. 
http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110/
{ 31 comments… read them below or add one }
This is definitely not discrimination, now everyone has a choice! I expect many people to embrace this option. If for some, kids that scream are ok, then for me it’s ok to choose to eat in a place where kids don’t scream. It’s the same thing as smoking areas – i don’t think it discriminates, but offers people an option.
I think the fact that they are “only kids” is why it’s reasonable to offer kid-free services. It’s not reasonable to expect an 11-month old to be perfectly behaved at all times out in public. And whether their parents are good or bad ones, their crying is just as piercing either way!
As far as discrimination goes, part of a dining experience is the atmosphere of a restaurant, and the proprieters definitely deserve to say what kind of establishment they’re running.
Banning children from your business IS age discrimination, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. There are apartment complexes that don’t allow anyone under 55 to live there, there are minimum ages to enter bars, there are requirements in all kinds of venues that no one under a certain age can be left unattended. We don’t allow 12 year olds to drive legally even if they’re big enough to reach the pedals, and you can’t vote on any laws about any of this until you’re 18. Insurance companies charge different rates for people of different ages. Some rental car companies won’t rent to anyone under 25. (This is from a U.S. perspective. Individual results may vary.)
On the other hand, banning children is NOT discrimination against parents. Parents are still parents if they arrive without children.
Sorry, crying “Discrimination!” doesn’t mean you get your way.
P.S. I’m betting a lot of the people deciding to close their businesses to children are actually parents themselves. I can’t help but think that many PARENTS would love to have a place to go that has no children around — this may be a GOOD thing for parents, too!
nice way to see things – I like your arguments.
It seems that most of the parents crying discrimination over this are new/first time parents. I have a wonderful friend who has four kids – ranging from 18 years to 18 months (yes, the last one was a menopause baby!
) – and she is all in favour of this. As she says, ‘Hell, I get enough of my own kids at home – why would I want to tolerate other people’s when I go out?!’
As for even using the word ‘discrimination’ – my goodness me, these people don’t even know they’re born (if you’ll pardon the pun). I cringe for all the brave people who actively fought/fight against REAL discrimination in terms of gender, race or sexuality, how insulting this is to them.
Well said!
Argh, forgot to mention disability advocates – you see, there’s so much REAL discrimination in the world that it’s sometimes hard to keep up with the ‘proper’ fights, never mind this nonsense!
Great article! I predict we’ll be seeing more and more of this in the near future, as childfree adults begin to speak out. I wrote a post on this very topic for my Psychology Today blog, Complete without Kids, and the angry letters from parents poured in. One woman even suggested that it was her right to breastfeed on a plane next to her fellow-passenger. The rudeness of a few parents is going to result in children being banned or families being separated out, which is too bad since most parents do try to be respectful of others.
Lots of places have no children policies in effect, including public services. For example, most of the public pools here in Toronto have adult-only times so that people who want to do lane swimming away from playing children can do that. My local pool has 3 different options, carried over twice a day, and I think it’s brilliant: one of them is adults only, one is everyone welcome, and the third is family time, where children must be with their parents/guardians, and adults must be with a child. Something for everyone, which is fine. Yesterday, I went to the everyone welcome time just because the adult time didn’t suit my schedule, but knew what I was getting into.
I think the solution is to offer people options: perhaps there will come a time when an airline is brave enough to offer adult-only flights (or no child sections?), or when a majority of restaurants will have no-child hours. I know it’s important for children to learn how to behave in public, but surely it is not my responsibility to do that for them in a public space when their parents are being clueless.
One big difference between this and the anti-smoking movement is that the anti-smoking movement included government support and eventual regulation. I do not see any government mandates requiring businesses to set aside childfree sections on airplanes, for example, or in restaurants. This will all be driven by pressure ont eh private sector.
I just suggested on another blog what I think is an awkward but fair solution:
Charge a deposit for each table like you pay when you rent an apartment. If you are well-behaved and you leave the table relatively clean when you’re done, you get your money back (maybe even a discount). If the patrons at the table disturb others or are otherwise bad customers, they don’t get the full deposit back. Well-behaved people don’t pay any extra money, and poorly behaved people (of any age!) have to pay more. If good behavior pays financial benefits to parents, you’ll see more well-behaved kids.
Scott, it’s a nice idea in theory, but you just know that some parents will try to make excuses for why their kids were screaming the whole time, or why the mess on the table isn’t their fault, and why they should get their deposit back.
With kids screaming and bothering other people, running around and making servers drop things, discounted kids meals, dropping food on the floor or otherwise wasting it and needing a new meal, etc. Kids are a liability to restaurants, not a boon.
Sheri,
You’re right, it’s an imperfect solution, but presumably those parents would complain once and never come back. The loss of their patronage would be offset somewhat by the deposit itself. They are generally so strapped for time they wouldn’t hang out too long after their meal. Those parents may be people who are already high maintenance no matter what you do.
My fear would be the opposite, maybe — people would feel like they already paid for a mess, so why not make one? Or they would then stiff the waiter because they refuse to have a deposit and a tip.
Just throwing it out there. Trying to find some way not to have a blanket policy against kids that would encourage well-behaved people and discourage poorly-behaved ones. It would be ideal from an income standpoint to appeal to parents of quiet kids and discourage parents of obnoxious ones.
There’s a chapter in ‘Freakonomics’ which talks about a study carried out in Israel in which a nursery implemented a policy charging parents a ‘late fee’ of approx $10-15 per event when they were overdue picking up their kids.
(Previous to the study taking place, the nursery had not imposed a fine, only made it relatively clear that lateness placed an undue strain on staff, resources etc)
You’d think the added financial pressure would make tardy parents more punctual, right? WRONG! The rates for overdue collection actually went up, rather than down, as those who were charged felt (either consciously or unconciously) that, as they were paying for the priviledge, they could then make use of it.
It just goes to show that, if somebody has an entitled mindset, charging them only makes them feel more entitled. Meh, these people are lacking in basic courtesy anyway, you really think an extra $10 is going to make them develop decency?!
@furrynumnah I had almost forgotten about that study. I have wondered since I read ‘Freakonomics’ what the results would be if the prices were less reasonable and more outrageous (i.e. $100 per ‘late event’). To be fair, you could make the fee scale up based on previous history. That way a one-time occurrence isn’t unfairly penalized.
i think we should complain in public more. women feel entitled as soon as they become pregnant not for being a parent. they took the whole “it takes a village” thing and ran with it. they organize mommy militias and run over everyone around them. what do the childfree do? complain online. since the parentally challenged are screaming and ruining every possible public venue we should also complain in public venues and in these frustrating situations when and where they occur. because all of the propaganda and pandering and catering really comes down to money. if enough of us start standing up for ourselves in real time situations and with our dollars, businesses will follow. bear in mind, all this mommy pandering begain with people complaining and then it became politically correct. we need to reverse that.
Got back from holiday yesterday. Stayed in a hotel/B&B place which had a “No children under 12″ policy. Totally awesome. I’m in my 20s, but I was the youngest person there by a good 30 years. Just so freaking nice. Quiet, breakfast wasn’t disturbed. Wasn’t woken up during the night by a screaming kid. Could actually enjoy long afternoons in bed without the thought that the mood might be ruined by a screaming kid.
Now, when I’m looking for places to stay, I try to ensure it has a similar policy. We need more places with this kind of policy because they can be really hard to find.
The places where I’ve had the worst experiences with kids in restaurants is the more casual places, like Chili’s and the like. I think alot of parents think casual means there kids can run and scream. And to be fair, it isn’t even the screaming that bothers me, it’s the lack of social boundaries. If I’m sitting drinking with my friends, and a tableful of frat-boys start yelling at the football game, it isn’t any louder than when a kid starts screaming at the table. You go to places like that expecting noise. The thing that children do that really gets my goat is when they start darting in between the tables and kamikaze anyone going to the bathroom. If the frat-boys did that proceeding events would lead to the eventual involvement of local law-enforcement. With children, my options for recourse are rather limited. At some point it isn’t a restaurant that serves alcohol, it’s a bar that serves food, children don’t belong.
In an ideal world rules like this shouldn’t even be necessary. Parents should be able and willing to control their kids. If they’re not they should leave the children at home, or just not go. The fact that we live in a world where such rules are necessary does not bode well for our species.
In an ideal world
Oh, it’s LONG past time. Not only do I actively patronize places with sane attitudes/rules about children, I tell them why they’ve earned my business.
Rick says it well: “The fact that we live in a world where such rules are necessary does not bode well for our species.”
In the past decades screaming children have been infiltrating almoast every public and private domain possible, which I blame their selfish parents for. All a lot of people I know and I want is some peace and quiet since we already live in an overcrowded country where silence has become extinct. This ‘no children allowed’ policy is great news and I hope it will become a (Western) world wide trend.
It’s pathetic and annoying when parents use terms like “discrimination” for banning children from certain places.
The problem is not the children themselves, it’s the parents. Many parents do not teach their children that certain behaviour is *not acceptable* in certain areas. Behaviour that is acceptable at home is not acceptable in a cafe or restaurant. I was taught it, so why aren’t other children? On the rare occasion we went to a cafe or restaurant, I was expected to sit down, eat my food, not make a mess and talk at a normal volume and not run around. I was taken in cafe’s when I was old enough to follow these rules. If I did’t behave, I was removed. Simple. Why should other paying customers have to dodge running children or be forced to listen to them scream? Children go EVERYWHERE ELSE, so why take an undisciplined child to a nice restaurant? I don’t complain about children playing in McDonalds, as that is more of an appropriate area, but not somewhere where I’m sitting with other adults having a normal volume conversation and paying £10 or more for a main course.
I am sick of places where I can no longer go without having to put up with little Johnny messing about because their parents want to have a few beers and either don’t notice or don’t care about their child’s behaviour. Your child, your responsibility.
Childfree restaurants and flights, bring them on!!
Long overdue in my opinion. I hate hearing screaming, whiny children no matter where I venture, but especially in restaurants. Restaurants are one of the few places I expect to be able to relax, and speak with the members of my party with out interruption (i.e. having to raise my voice because someone decided it was a good idea to bring a 2 month old in). Movie theaters are another location that I wish ignorant parents didn’t bring their babies to. I don’t watch movies geared toward children (though I still can’t see how a BABY could enjoy one in that category; I hated screaming youngsters when I was a child too, so I know it ruins the movie for other children), and I can’t figure out why someone would bring young children with them to see a movie rated PG or up. The ratings on movies are there for a reason, and if something needs to be audibly explained because the person watching is too young, a public theater is no place for that. Wait until it comes out on DVD or Netflix, or whatever and watch it at home.
Just thinking about this reminds me of a rowdy child (maybe 3 years old) I saw at a restaurant the other day. He wouldn’t stop yelling until he got what he wanted, and he ended up throwing half of his meal on the floor behind him. Of course his lazy mother didn’t even attempt to punish him, let alone clean up the mess he made. I was so disgusted I couldn’t even say anything to her. If I’d done anything near that disrespectful as a child I would have been punished, my parents would have cleaned up the mess I created, and they would have apologized to the staff for my rude behavior. You best believe I would have been taken home as well.
I guess the old saying is true – spare the rod, spoil the child.
In restaurants, I don’t mind well behaved kids. When I was a little brat, throwing temper tantrums whenever I didn’t get what I wanted, one of my parents took me outside, where they would wait for my fit to subside, respectfully far from the eyes and ears of other patrons.
This should be standard. If all parents did this, it would make me feel much less of a need to be uncivil.
Still, some restaurants are not for kids. It’s awkward and uncomfortable when mom brings in her six year old to a bar and grill, while ol’ Joe is sipping his fifth beer at the bar and my friends and I are talking about sex. You don’t go into bars to see kids. You go into a Denny’s to see kids.
Airplanes, however. Now that’s about time. Not all flights, mind you. I think parents who want to fly their kids somewhere should be able to check a box when they’re looking for flights, and their search would be limited to family flights, where children are welcome.
Peple like you make me sick! I read the article and it makes me sick! I dont know the person who posted this article personally but I feel sorry for you and all other who agree with you. Maybe one day you will get a heart. Are you perfect? Do you have a great day everyday? Children are the same way they just express themselves differently. The world has become so sad and filled with hate that now you have adults who feel the ned to show hatred towards children.
Britgirl will have to speak for herself, but for myself I have to say I feel somewhat confused about your reaction. What I hear you saying is that I make you sick AND you also feel sorry for me. Which is it? Are you feeling disgust AND pity?
I’m not sure when there was ever a world where no one ever hated children and never had anything bad to say about them. It sounds like you’re suggesting the world has more hatred today than ever before. Possibly. How would you ever measure such a thing?
Long overdue.
Not everyone in society wants to enjoy the company of children and there should be restaurants who cater to those. There are lots of places I can go in Toronto if I want to be surrouned by kids, where can I go if I don’t want to be surrounded by kids? And if I’d wanted to eat with kids I would have born my own.
Amen, nothing is more digusting then some slovenly couple with their little blob children whining and dripping mucus all over the place while myself and friend are trying to enjoy our dinner. More abortions – abortions should be mandatory.
What I hear all the time is how wonderfully rewarding it is to have children, how it’s the very best thing in life, how it’s totally worth all the sacrifices. If so, then it shouldn’t matter if there’s the little inconvenience of a restaurant that bans children. I mean, if having children is such undiluted joy, and we childfree are missing out, can’t you parents take pity on us and let us have our own spaces? Parents, just think about the whole long list of positives that you get from being a parent — is the inability to take the kids to any and all restaurants really such a big deal?
Unless, of course, parents are saying that being a parent is thankless drudgery and parents need every night out they can possibly get because their kids are driving them insane and being a parent is not really so joyful and rewarding….
Kids should not be brought to good restaurants (wine list, tablecloths, soothing background music, multiple cutlery, etc.) until they are able to sit and eat their food quietly, without disturbing others in the restaurant.
One should expect noise and chaos in fast-food restaurants such as McDonald’s, Chuck E. Cheese, etc., so you’d really have no legitimate complaint.
A child running rampant in ANY restaurant is a hazard to servers, customers, and itself.
Even people with kids like to go out and enjoy a quiet, relaxing meal from time to time, so leave the kids at home and hire a babysitter. You’ll be doing EVERYONE a favor.
Jerry Steinberg
Founding Non-Father Emeritus of NO KIDDING!
The international social club for childless and childfree couples and singles
http://www.nokidding.net; jerry@nokidding.net
It looks that you’re the one who hates. Why do you hang out on childfree blogs? You are here to get that trilling adrenaline of anger. Be honest with you… On a subconscious level, what brought you here? Love and fulfillment of your life as a parent? Or just plain frustration?
sorry, that was Shelley, not for Jerry