Once upon a time (or so the story goes) there was never any need to bring up the issue of kids or no kids. You met, dated and it was assumed that kids would come along (assuming of course that you both stayed together and got married). For many people that’s still the way the story goes. There were few, if any childfee questions or considerations coming into play.
These days not only does it seem harder than ever to meet the right person (by which I mean the right person for you) there is also the question of children. But, you may say, you don’t bring up the kid question when you’re just dating!. True. In fact one of the best ways to send a guy running in the opposite direction is to ask one of the following questions when you’re 3 months into the relationship:
- “How many children do you see yourself having…?” or
- “Where do you see us in 6 months?” or
- Both of the above
Note I said send the guy running in the opposite direction… because it’s almost always the woman who starts this particular ball rolling.
On a more serious note though, should the childfree be raising the no-kid question sooner rather than later? After the initial dating but when you’re going steady? Unless you meet on an online site (where you’ve stated clearly that you are childfree and you’re not changing your mind) at what point do you bring up the childfree topic? Or should you not bring it up at all and hope for the best until you get to know each other (it can be a relationship killer).
While some of these questions may seem obvious, from what I’ve read and heard, this is a tricky area for childfree men and women. Either the man has every intention of having kids and assumes (as many people still do) that the woman’s going to want kids, or the guy doesn’t want kids but the woman’s most certainly does.
In my own case I was very fortunate to meet someone who didn’t want kids. I’d just assumed I would always have them, then gave it some more thought and decided I didn’t want them that much. It was simply a matter of being sure we didn’t want them, than trying to convince the other they did want kids.
We’ve heard heartbreaking stories on this blog of relationships that disintegrated because one party agreed, then changed their mind about being childfree – with devastating consequences. So one might say bring it up sooner rather than later – launch the childfree f-bomb and see what happens… and at least you don’t need to waste each other’s time.
However – is it that simple? I don’t think so. Although we know there are many men and women who are childfree and want to stay that way, somehow they seem to be elusive and hard to meet. (Case in point, my husband’s from Toronto and I’m from England. I made the move to Toronto after he’d come over to England but it just worked out better that way).
No-one particularly wants to start off by saying “Oh by the way I am childfree what about you, ’cause if you’re not let’s not even waste each other’s time.” That doesn’t give any time for the chemistry to develop does it?
What do you think? Is dating more difficult because you’re childfree? How easy is it to meet childfree people to date? And after dating and you’re serious, where does being childfree come in? Share your thoughts. And if you’ve been through the dating/relationship minefield, what tips do you have to share?
I think it’s a huge area however I don’t see much written about it from a childfree perspective. Maybe that’s just me, so if you know of useful resources feel free to share as well.
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If you’re looking to settle down with someone, then sooner rather than later. I don’t want anything to do with a guy that has kids or wants kids someday.
I’m interested to hear the comments on this. I just turned 37 and I’ve been divorced for a little over seven years. I’m only now almost-maybe-kinda-sorta thinking about trying to start dating. But even in a big city like the one I live in, I expect that meeting men 35 and up who don’t already have kids is going to be no mean feat, let alone someone that age who is truly CF, not just fence-sitting or still hoping to work in a kid or two “before it’s too late.”
The one optimistic thought I do have about it is that if a guy is in his mid-30s, he’s had time to see the stress, expense, exhaustion and time-suck that kids have created in his friends’, relatives’ and co-workers’ lives. He’s had time to consider whether he really wants to go down that road and to realize that it’s CHOICE. Also, he’s likely to have seen a few of his friends, relatives and co-workers go through divorces, maybe even go through one himself. Maybe he’s gotten to see that “having it all” (marriage, career and kids) has been oversold and realized that a good relationship, rewarding work, and an interesting life are plenty.
For someone my age, I think being CF would naturally come up in conversation pretty early in the relationship. Since about 80 percent of all women eventually have at least one child, “Do you have kids?” isn’t an outrageous question for someone in their 30s to ask after a few dates. I can even imagine it coming up on the first date for some people. Chances are that a person who does have kids will be the first to bring it up. People without kids almost never mention NOT having them, but kids seem to work their way into parents’ conversation all the time.
My view on this has evolved over the years.
When I was in my 20s, this issue rarely came up when I was dating. Most of the time, I did not date a woman long enough so it would be an issue. But when I was 25, I did date one woman for a few months and she happened to raise this issue. Not being a staunch CF back then, I kinda hedged and that did not seem to faze her. We did break up a few months later but not because of that (although my lack of enthusiasm about having kids probably would have been a big reason later on).
When I was in my 30s, my being CF did cost me some relationships. When I was 33, I was dating a woman for several months and even though the issue never arose, it became more and more clear that she wanted kids. (She worked as a nursery school teacher and always spoke about the cute kids in her class.) When I eventually told her about my CFness, that ended things as I knew it would. She expressed some annoyance at me for not telling her sooner, and I then knew that in the future I had to let women know sooner.
In placing online ads, I could let women know right away that I did not want to have kids. This greatly reduced the number of responses to my ad to nearly zero. Furthermore, the number of ads I could reply to was nearly zero because nearly every woman either had kids or wanted to have kids. I did meet and date a few women but it was very tough when 98% of them had no chance with me (and I had no chance with 98% of them).
But as I approached 40, I began to be willing to date woman who had grown children, those who were not part of their mother’s everyday life (and the women had to not want to have any more kids). Finally, when I turned 41 seven years ago, I met a woman like that. Her grown daughter lives hundreds of miles away and I have spoken to her only a few times and have never met her.
Dating when you’re CF stinks, quite frankly. I’m 37 and it’s hard enough to meet single women in their 30s who don’t already have kids or have the desire to procreate like NOW in real life, let alone online. As a previous commenter has posted, put that you don’t want kids on your dating profile and you get zero response and trying to find a CF woman on a dating site within 75 miles of me is like looking for a needle in a haystack. If you find two, hurrah, but the chances of you then finding them attractive or having other attributes you are looking for is non-existent.
I don’t want someone who has kids already either. I have no desire to be a step-parent and living in the UK, you can never be that far away from your partner’s brood.
I’ve more or less had to resign myself to the likelihood of spending the rest of my life alone and that gives me no pleasure at all. And I get so fed up with my female friends (I have many) saying I would be a fantastic catch in every other respect. It’s like who I am doesn’t count. My only worth is in my sperm, not in the fact I could love someone totally and utterly, not have to share it with a child, and give them a wonderful, happy home life and the time to go and do whatever we wanted whenever we wanted.
Don’t give up. Before we met my husband told me that almost every woman he dated was either looking for a father for her existing children or looking for a father for her future children. Needless to say the dates didn’t go past 1 or 2. I was talking to him about this post and his advice? Wait for your 40′s. By then you will meet women past the recommended safe baby-making age (late 30′s, early 40′s). They can be more easily steered away from I wanna have a kid stage. And if you meet one who starts talking about IVF, it’s easier to spot – and again they can be reminded of all the reasons it’s a bad idea – especially at her age. And the older you get the more you can say you simply don’t want to have kids in uni when you’re supposed to be in retirement, etc. This happened with some friends of ours… it works. They aren’t having kids.
In my experience it is easier to find CF men in the dating scene than women regardless of the age demographic. Most men (that I have met) do not want kids, don’t like kids & don’t even like to think about them–in fact many have gone so far as to say that women with children from previous relationships are disgusting\ruined\wasted\not worth the time because of demon spawn(whether they are CF or future breeders, this view stays pretty well unchanged).
Women on the other hand.. some may say the ‘need to breed’ is biological others cite media influence (I think it is a bit of a mix there), but there is a staggering amount of women out there with thinking with their ovaries.. it is especially aggravating to have infertile women (or with fertility issues) approach you so forwardly about your own fertility\ability to breed. Just because I can, doesn’t mean I will (or should for that matter). But that is much the issue, there is not so much concern for a willingness to propagate, but rather the ability to be able to. It is kind of terrifying really how many times I have been asked if I could\would surrogate or consider being ‘the vessel’ in a woman\woman relationship etc.
I am pretty straight-forward and blunt when it comes to being CF. Maybe not first date material, but as soon as things start getting somewhat more serious I try and be as up-front as possible, because really the longer you wait, the more involved you get and the stronger emotional bonds made only makes it more difficult broach the subject & more painful to part (if that is the result) the longer you wait.
Sure the dating turn over might be higher, but in the long run, compatible views & outlooks on life & future makes for a happier relationship.
I think the majority of men (certainly in my experience) wouldn’t have kids if they weren’t pressed into it by their partners/wives/girlfriends/mothers/in-laws. They are not interested and it means goodbye to freedom in too many ways to mention. So most would be quite happy enjoying their lives without kids. But they are rarely allowed to get away with that train of thought for too long.
It seems to me that instead of asking a potential partner about their feelings on the subject of kids, it’s easier to just put your own feelings out there first and let the discussion go from there.
I met my husband-to-be when we were both 30, and I had known for years that I didn’t want kids. I mentioned this to him fairly early on in our relationship – maybe 3 or 4 weeks into it. He said that he always saw himself having two, but then he admitted he’d never given it any deep, serious thought. The older he got, and the more time he actually spent around children, the more he realized that he didn’t really like them, and eventually he figured out that raising children was not how he wanted to spend his life. By the time we finally got married, he had no doubts that he wanted to be childfree.
Too many people just assume that children will happen, and they don’t give this the serious thought that it deserves. It’s good to get this topic out there early.
I’m a 26 year old female in the U.S. Midwest (breeder central) and am using a free dating website. I have ‘childfree’ plastered on EVERY answer and warn prospective suitors that if they aren’t childfree to move along. I also only like matches of 90% or higher. So far, so good. By emphasizing my #1 qualification of Childfree, I have basically eliminated most of the random guys that send me messages and have actually found a couple CF guys 90% match or higher with whom I get along at the current time. (They say, ‘ask and ye shall receive’, right?)
Without the use of internet dating, it’s nearly impossible to find a CF match, in my experience. I don’t want to be bothered with non-CF guys, so I don’t waste my time on the bar crowd anymore. To me, the number one (besides attraction) is if a guy is CF and I do think it would be weird for me to go up to every cute guy in a bar and say, ‘Hi, are you Childfree? No? Darn.” and move along. I had to make sure CF was very clear on my dating profile b/c I did date a guy for several months this summer… and between my strong stance and his friends having kids, he discovered he actually does want to be a father eventually and he respectfully broke it off.
I’m not going to waste time on non-CF guys and it’s always been something I bring up right away, to ‘scare them off’ if you will. Unfortunately, because our CF qualification really limits the dating pool, I don’t expect it to work out for everyone b/c there are many factors that go into finding a match. Best of luck to all!
My decision to be child-free helped along two divorces, so I would have to say that the child-free decision should be raised pretty early, and with “No, seriously” attached. My second husband always thought I would change my mind, even though I told him before we even got engaged that I wasn’t interested in children. By that time, however, we were already … not SERIOUS, but far enough in that no one wanted to leave.
The sooner you put it out there, the sooner someone will know to take off if they want kids. If they’ve already started liking you, they might think, “I guess I could do the no-kid thing…” But once the lovey-hearts and rainbows wear off, they’ll figure out that they really DO want kids, and that you’re not giving them to them.
The infatuation stage can make you think you’ll be able to adapt to a lot of things you’ll actually not end up adapting to.
I’d say not only put it out there but stick to it so that people see there is no point trying to change your mind.
My husband and I met young, so young that we were not at the age yet where people date for the sake of forming long term partnerships…more like the age where people date to find someone to go to the prom with. Only later did we discover that we were both childfree. If I ever found myself back on the market, however, I think I would want it out there sooner rather than later. No point in wasting everyone’s time if you and the other person are fundamentally incompatible.
Wanting to know whether my date wants kids seems, to me, like wanting to know if he plans to move to India next year, or if he’s a fundie, or a hardcore vegan, or something equally important that would make his lifestyle and most likely his values not mesh with mine. However, I understand how awkward it could be on a first date to blurt out of the blue that I’m CF, and how about you? Instead, I’d look for an opening to make an “offhand” comment about kids, like if we’re in a restaurant and the table next to us has a screaming infant, and say “wow, I’m so glad that will never be me” and then sit back and see how he reacts.
And to those who hope that potential dates (especially men) who are out of their 20s will know their options better, good luck. The 30-something men I know at work and in my personal life, who were not already CF, all still want kids, despite seeing their parent friends’ lives disintegrate, because they figure their wives will do all the work and their involvement will be limited to reading bedtime stories and playing baseball in the backyard (and of course, since all women are naturally selfless and nurturing, she will just LOVE doing all the work and won’t resent it at all!). I wish I were kidding, in this the year 2011, but it seems a whole lot of youngish men out there are still perfectly happy to pretend it’s 1950. Sometimes talking to these guys, I feel like second wave feminism never happened. The silver lining here, of course, is that you can use their sexism as a giant red flag to weed them out.
(To be fair, I also know many 30-ish women who, despite seeing their sisters’ and friends’ and coworkers’ lives suck in a major way post-kid, still want “their own.” And no, I don’t understand them either.) Everyone always thinks that it will be different for them, and I think that’s the biggest difference between the CF and everyone else. When I see other people’s lives sucking after having kids, and hear them complain about their kids, I not only listen to them, but I believe them, and instead of thinking that I’m just so much better and smarter than them that OF COURSE I would NEVER make the same mistakes they did, I think to myself “there but for the grace of god…”
I don’t think its necessary to ask or blurt out anything about being childfree. I think there are millions of opportunities to make a point without saying “I don’t want children.” You could be sitting in a cafe with your date and see a frazzled woman with a screeching kid, and make a comment about how that doesn’t look like fun. Or mention a friend you are seeing this weekend, who has finally managed to get an afternoon off from the misery of childcare. Go to a movie and say you hope no one brings a screaming infant in. If a date suggests some activity like an amusement park, say that you’d rather not go to kid oriented places, they give you a headache. Later on you can and should still have an explicit talk calling things what they are, but if you drop hints, you shouldn’t be in a position of being madly in love with a person for 2 years and then both of you being shocked and surprised by the other’s stance.
“woman with a screeching kid”
“an afternoon off from the misery of childcare”
“a screaming infant”
“they give you a headache”
what a limited view on what it is having a child/children
I don’t know what they did (or did not) to you guys when you were kids, but have you ever thought that you wouldn’t exist unless your mother had you?
How can you hate children and the idea of them so deeply?
And yes: you don’t know what amount of fun and love and partnership you are missing!!!
have you actually read anything we’ve all written here?
lol
I sometimes wonder if there is an automated bot out there that seeks out childfree posts and replies with a series of randomised one liner bingos.
Well ironically you just prove how frustrated you are: you go on childfree blogs to say how much we are missing something… Who are you trying to convince?
Oh, and you have no idea what it is to be rich, free and having a flat stomach… that I’ll show up soon for two weeks on the beach… and get jealous looks from the moos!
Keep the diapers, I’ll keep the fabulous life!
We meet online, but not though a dating site but though Second Life (mutual friends on there introduced us to each other), and before we started getting serious I did actually ask him his stance on having children (this is before we even started dating each other though the “game” or even got serious in real life) and to my pleasure he was like he can’t but if I already have them it was alright with him (turned out he never wont’s them, but was back then keeping his options open for his family’s sake).
I actually never had an issue finding a partner who was CF, even the first person I dated offered to get himself cut to prove to me that he was 100% serious about not wishing to have them (only trouble was finding a doc who would do a V on someone under 30 never mind someone who was only 21 at the time), he did years later go under the knife but by then we’d broken up so wasn’t an issue between us.
I’ve always been to the point when meeting people and asking about their interest in children, but one thing that has always also been the case is that we’ve been friends or aquantaces long before the “dating” stage of things so the topic of kids always seems to come up do to their siblings having them or something, so its always a good in on the subject to get their point of view of the matter at hand.
Guess it goes without saying that depending on how it is phrased you can learn a lot about someone and their wish or lack there of to have or be around children – thus be able to gage where the final Q might be between the two of you for future reference. Then again taking the bull by the horns and just being blint hasn’t hurt my old dating pool or record (never had a guy or girl run from me after the Q was asked – then again never went beyond 1st base without it coming up because no way was I putting out without knowing that they would be on my side should something happen.)
Hi Brit Girl,
I asked this question earlier this year on La Vie Childfree as a cf on-the-ground question–here’s a sum of what cf said:
http://lauracarroll.com/2011/03/reporting-back-february-on-the-ground-question/
This is also a good resource for cf dating: http://lauracarroll.com/2011/02/a-great-how-to-on-childfree-dating/
What I learned: don’t talk about it right out of the blocks e.g., with the first date, but in general sooner is better than later…on dating sites, be sure to make your cf status clear, but still expect to deal with frustration of getting matches who will not be clearly cf! Laura
I do not date much and have a stance of being single all the time. I love it but this same issue has come up. I recently met a man who I am really into and he is into me. The one thing that is keeping me from taking that next step is this whole child issue. Before I knew this man liked me and visa versa with him, we were casually talking. We have a great friendship. Children came up where I stated I do not want to have kids. I am not changing my mind. Unfortunately, he went on to state that he wants at least one child. I was distressed then but am even more now.
I feel we can’t move on because I seriously think we can have a good thing (maybe a lasting relationship) but I won’t bend on having a child and I don’t want to deny him something so personal and emotional. I stay single because I do not enjoy hurting people and I see couples doing just that daily to eachother.
Right now, things are at a standstill and I know it is puzzling him. He wants to proceed (and, by golly, so do I!) but I am so afraid I will change my mind and have a baby to please this man. Yes, I am that confident things would move onto a lasting relationship with us. Then I will, under no certain terms, be extremely unhappy. I want to stay happy now and I want the same for him but I want him but not that kid he so wants.
It is an awful decision to make and one I am struggling with and have no way to turn.
Well, if you don’t want children and he wants at least one, the writing is on the wall. If we agree that we shouldn’t try to change the other’s mind then you both have some talking to do because right now there is a big incompatibility there on the childfree front. But no need to break up just yet… I mean you’re friends thinking of going to something more serious. You could proceed and enjoy each others company, but you both have to state where you stand and agree that if you cannot agree then you either stay just friends or part ways. Actually, when you say you are so afraid you may change your mind and have a baby for this man… it sounds like you may be a little unsure and not as unbending as you may think.
@Britgirl – you said that, in your experience, most men wouldn’t have had kids if it hadn’t been thrust upon them by the women. I experienced the opposite – I married (and ultimately divorced) two men who wanted children, and all the men I’ve ever known have wanted children (except for the one I’m married to). In fact, I think I know more women who don’t want children than men… strange.
That makes sense to me. For men, children are kodak moments and desk photos a lot of the time. Sure, I’d like that too! Yeah, pay some bills, play some catch, go to a dance recital, sounds good. Women are much more realistic. Children mean a gross body, becoming permanently less attractive to your mate and all other men because of the physical as well as the baggage now, screaming, crying, snot, vomit, poo, pee, lack of sleep, end or serious fall in career and money prospects, end of social life, having to be the disciplinarian, end of sex as fun, resentful husband, piles of laundry, cleaning that never ends, etc., etc. Women are stuck with doing the child work, and pretty much always stuck with the children after a divorce. Of course women who have even an inkling of a brain have doubts!
Bit of a sweeping generalisation isn’t it?
Yes, like the realistic women who want to stay home (SAH) while the husband goes and works all hours so all the family can live on one salary… yep, heard that one, even in a down economy. I tend to think that if women really believed their lives were going to change so radically they probably wouldn’t have children. Many think it’s going to be different for them – until they have one and then it takes over and they see differently. And then they don’t really care that much because they decide they need to have another one. Men are better at still keeping a social life and connections with their buddies. But I believe that many do play their part as present fathers (I am not talking about the deadbeat dads of course). If the woman is stuck with a guy who doesn’t do anything it’s partly her own fault… for letting him get away with it so she feels stuck with it.
“Children mean a gross body, becoming permanently less attractive to your mate and all other men because of the physical as well as the baggage now, screaming, crying, snot, vomit, poo, pee, lack of sleep, end or serious fall in career and money prospects, end of social life, having to be the disciplinarian, end of sex as fun, resentful husband, piles of laundry, cleaning that never ends, etc., etc. ”
So not! I have perfectly recovered from two pregnancies, my “mate” and other men stil finds me attractive, my children are not baggage, they are people just like you (although it is hard to believe you were once a child yourself!), as far as I know adults also scream, cry, snot, vomit, poo, and pee (and their reason for it are another question!). My career is bloosoming and my employer finds my new found skills (thanks to motherhood!) very valuable. I have plenty of friends and a rewarding social life, I do have sex for fun with my husband (actually, very much so), and it is not like you don’t have laundry or cleaning to do…
You guys are soooooooo full of topics which only proof that you have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying not to feel bad about your decision not to procreate (which might not be a bad idea on the other hand!)
Same here. The majority of all men I have ever met wanted children or already had the children they had wanted. Either way – I have come to the conclusion that men not wanting children is an unfortunate stereotype.
It would be slim pickings if I were dating now. Even if I disregard for the moment that I am not the least bit attracted to any unattached guys I know, they all – without exception – want children, and they are not shy to tell you so.
I’m quite sure many men want kids. They are, after all programmed just as much as women, albeit differently, to want them. If they don’t want/have kids, they’re immature, not grown up, not settled down, childish, yada, yada, yada. The norm is to have them – as that is society’s sign of stability – and most of society plays along. Plus of course most men, just like most women, have grown up always thinking they are going to have kids and want to have kids. The majority of women are looking at datable men as future fathers – and providers. But just because all the men you’ve ever known have wanted children and several of the ones I’ve known/know don’t want them or are indifferent doesn’t make it strange… it just means it’s a different experience.
I know several men (personally) who just don’t want kids… and because of that will probably be single for a lot longer than their peers as unless they meet a childfree person and it clicks, there’s nothing doing. I also know quite a few men who have said that were it not for the women in their lives they probably wouldn’t have had children. Not saying it’s a bad thing, or that they aren’t being great fathers, or that they are in the majority of all men, just that that’s been my experience. Nothing strange about it at all.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that men wanting or not wanting children was strange. It is not that I never met a childfree man, just that the majority of men I know or have met were outspokenly not, and that this runs counter to so many other people’s experiences, as you said. So I am always a little surprised when I hear people say that they never meet men who actually want/ed children. (Perhaps they all congregate around me. I’ll have to ask them how they find me.
)
I’ve been lucky in that my first and present husband didn’t want kids. I always made it clear right up front that I would be childfree.
Thanks Britgirl. As a follow up to to, “Actually, when you say you are so afraid you may change your mind and have a baby for this man… it sounds like you may be a little unsure and not as unbending as you may think.” I can tell you that I am 100% sure of not wanting children. I don’t even like them. I almost hate being around them and get irritated when I see too many in one area. I won’t have a child for this man. I guess I was saying that sometimes love makes you do things you didn’t really think you would. Silly me, I don’t want kids and would break up with him (if things progress) if it was an all or nothing case. Thanks for the advise though. I think I will try to “date” him. It is also hard for me as I don’t date (single for life girl here) but I am willing to date and see men. I find the longer I stay single, the harder it is for me to date. lol.
I think you should simply relax and have fun with each other. If you like each other, take it from there. If it turns into something – great. If not, something else will come up. You can’t simply jump from not dating at all to the kid thing…. I don’t think it’s doing either of you justice. It’s not as if it’s all or nothing right now anyway. Things have a way of working themselves out. Take care.
“I don’t even like them. I almost hate being around them and get irritated when I see too many in one area.” Are you serious? Today is children, tomorrow is black people bothering you… Honestly, you have a serious problem!
@Rhona: How can you compare disliking children to racism? They’re completely different things.
It wouldn’t be the first time that the race card was used as a bingo. While you’re at it, Yo can invoke Godwin’s Law by equating the childfree choice to sending children to the gas chambers in Nazi Germany.
I have (had?) a very interesting dating philosophy. I refused to date any guy that I wasn’t already friends with. Some people found this weird, because it can definitely cause awkwardness in a friendship (and many times, you can’t go back), but I strongly believed that if I couldn’t be friends with a guy, why would I even want to remotely think of him in a romantic way. (That means no blind dates, no “pick-ups” in bars, no random encounters that led to a date the next weekend, etc.) My friends and family had a VERY hard time dealing with this, but I stuck with it. I firmly believed in it. Of course, I was also a content single and didn’t much care if I got married, so I wasn’t running around looking for a partner either.
I’ve only dated three guys, all of whom started as friends and morphed into something deeper. I knew where they all stood on children before we even started dating, which was a huge bonus. The first two wanted children, so I knew in the back of my mind I would never end up marrying them (of course, one was high-school-to-college bridge boyfriend and the other was a college boyfriend, so marriage wasn’t even on my mind then). My husband was my best friend for a while before we decided to try out dating, and I already knew that he didn’t want children. In fact, that was one of the biggest reasons I found him so attractive in more than just a friendship way. Here’s a guy who speaks my language (and understands my weirdness), who loves the same things I do, who has the same values and moral leanings, who is compassionate and kind and can temper my fiery fierceness and tendency to hold grudges (and he did when we were friends by excellent advice already), AND he doesn’t want children? Heck, why weren’t we already dating? Luckily, he thought the same thing and asked me out, a bit hesitantly, since we both were worried about the great friendship we had.
That said, most people who knew me more than a few months knew I was not having children by choice, so it would’ve been hard to keep it a secret from any guy I dated, whether he knew me well or not. I made no bones about the fact that I didn’t want children and really didn’t care if guys cared about that. If they didn’t like me, they didn’t have to be around me. (Strangely, the confidence that you don’t need a guy seems to make guys think that you want to date them more. After I made my “friends-only” pronouncement to myself, I was more confident about my “nos” to people I met randomly, which seemed to make them think I was saying “Well, maybe. Ask again sometime.” Very weird.)
If you are looking for new childfree friends and/or a childfree partner, join or start a NO KIDDING! chapter.
It’s easy and a lot of fun! Many people have done it.
Jerry Steinberg
Founding Non-Father Emeritus of NO KIDDING!
The international social club for childless and childfree couples and singles
http://www.nokidding.net; jerry@nokidding.net
For anyone wanting new childfree friends:
If you would like to make some new childfree friends and/or meet a childfree partner, join or start a NO KIDDING! chapter.
It’s easy and a lot of fun! Many people have done it.
Jerry Steinberg
Founding Non-Father Emeritus of NO KIDDING!
The international social club for childless and childfree couples and singles
http://www.nokidding.net; jerry@nokidding.net
It’s really rough. I’ve tried online dating sites for a few months and I get no responses. All the single women I’ve met in real life that I’ve found attractive were either in their early to mid 20s and considered me too old(about a month shy of 37) or the ones closer to my age all turned out to already have kids from previous relationships. Because of this, in about 5 months of seriously trying to get back into the dating game, I’ve been on exactly 0 dates. It sucks.
When I got married right out of college, we decided that we weren’t having kids. He is one of 13 kids and told me REPEATEDLY that there were enough people in the world and he was really happy being “Uncle Joe.” I almost called off the wedding because a couple of his sisters convinced me that he really did want them. So, you can imagine my surprise when, 4 years into the marriage, his biological clock goes off and he starts trying to convince me to have “just one!” I just couldn’t do it.
Sadly, and probably obviously, that marriage ended in divorce. We’re still great friends and now he has 2 really cute little boys (for now) and I’m very happy for him.
So, no matter how much you try and cover all your bases, things happen. I don’t blame him, because I do believe that there has to be some DNA wired in all of us that makes most people want to procreate. Otherwise, the race would die out.
And that’s fine…for others.
One last point: I was a 38 year old woman who started to date a 27 year old man and I told him on our SECOND outing, “I am NOT NOT NOT having kids. You want them, this ends right now.”
Fast forward 5 years, and when he called my dad to ask for my hand, Dad only had one question for him. “You do realize that if you marry her, you won’t be having kids, right?!”
We got married 19 days ago.
Congratulations! I wish I could be as straightforward as you are with men.
My latest relationship ended over the childfree issue, but we had actually discussed it way back in the beginning, and made a mutual decision to be in it “for a good time, not a long time”. We were happy for 2 years before deciding it was time to move on and seek more suitable life partners. (Obviously the fact that he is still young enough to find someone to have kids with was an influencing factor in his decision to take a 2 year detour with me. I doubt he would have chosen the same way if he were ten years older.)
The relationship itself was great fun though, and we never argued or became bitter with each other because we both went into it knowing where the other stood. It actually all turned out remarkably well – and I think it was our mutual honesty with each other that enabled us to remain friends after the relationship eventually ended.
As for finding a life partner though – I’m beginning to wonder if maybe a series of rewarding medium term relationships, interspersed with some time spent being single, might be a more realistic goal.
I still hope that I’ll meet someone and make a long term life partnership with him, but to be honest I also kind of love being single, so for now I’m sort of fence sitting on the whole “having a boyfriend” thing. I guess if it’s the right guy, then being in a relationship will be as much fun as being single anyway, right?
As to dating – I make the occasional comment that alludes to my childfree status somewhere around date 2 or 3. If it’s an issue for the guy, he will raise it. If not, then I will raise it properly a couple of months down the track.
Also I can’t help noticing how many of us are lamenting the lack of members of the opposite sex who don’t want, or already have, children. We’re obviously out there. Don’t lose hope guys!
I think I was very fortunate in that I have been with my partner since we were both still in school.
I think early on in the relationship we assumed we would have kids, because “thats just what you do”. However as we were still in our teens it wasn’t like we were considering it then, it was a someday type of thing.
As we got older, later teens we actually started talking about it a lot more and we both had many reservations. Over many long into-the-night discussions, about money, health, the state of the world etc we realised that neither of us actually wanted kids at all.
A couple of years ago my partner had the snip. As we were both still in our early twenties it was nearly impossible to find someone who would do it but we saved up and went private and it was such a relief that we no longer had to worry.
We are now at an age where all our friends are starting to talk about kids, are having kids, trying for kids, planning kids etc and its starting to drive me mad. Luckily one of my best friends and her husband are also child free so I have a close friend who totally gets it. So many others, unfortunately, do not, and I see increasing strain and distance in these friendships which is a shame. Don’t get me wrong, I am happy for my friends if they are happy, but some manage to be normal, and happen to have kids and some turn into some kind of baby obsessed stuck record and seem to care not one jot about anything other than babies babies babies.
I think if I was back out looking for dates I would just be totally honest from the get-go. I am lucky that I have never been in that position and I hope not to be. Finally, after several years both my family and his (who are catholic) have accepted our decision and we are not subjected to constant pressure. Though that may also be as our siblings are coming to the age where it is a possibility so they are laying all the pressure on them instead.
I came upon this blog looking for “no maternal instincts”; it is very interesting, though Britgirl’s life is very different from mine in Montréal. I’m no doubt older than you, in my 50s so finally people stopped asking me when I was going to settle down and have children (I look fairly young for my age so still looked “fertile” through my 40s). I’m a bit like Jessica in that men I have fallen for were always friends or people involved in the same activities I am; I’ve never really been into “dating”. And I do think it is important to be compatible in some key areas such as this one, as well as life goals and strongly-held opinions or outlooks.
I’d say there is a period in your thirties when it is very difficult as (I’m speaking of heterosexual women here) the available and interesting men are either looking for someone to “settle down and procreate with”, superannuated Peter Pan types who just want endless and meaningless flings or divorced or separated dads who assume you are just mad about the prospect of sharing the joys of parenting. I have indeed lost chances for relationships with the latter category due to my outright refusal to get involved with a man with minor children.
Obviously there is also the category of men one is better off giving a wide berth to…
However, although our prospects do decline with age because of sexism – men looking for younger (fertile?) dating material, in one way at least things do get better – their kids are raised and nowadays often living far from the parental home. I have a long-distance relationship; he has a grown daughter whom I’ve never met, but I wouldn’t mind doing so either; she is through university and on her own.
Why does men have a responsibility for women waiting until late their 30´s to reproduce?
If women wait too long to reproduce they should take the consequences!
I spoke with childfree women who said they yet had to meet men who did not want to have kids. So I think it goes both ways.
My last relationship ended because of disagreement over wether having kids or not.
Soon to be 39 and single I can clearly see the challenge of finding a suitable life partner.
Probably I will get cynical and go all in when dating but keep a lit on my CF attitude. But have not given up to find true love even as a CF man.
Becoming a stepfather is not an option! Why would I get involved with somebody ELSES kids?? No chance!
Nope – don’t give up! It may take longer to meet that person but I believe they are out there.
Very nice post beholde poste sånt …!!
I’m in a long term relationship. When we met I made it clear I wanted nothing to do with kids. She didn’t feel the same way. I said if she wanted to have kids, she was welcome, but I wouldn’t be raising them with her. Then we got serious, and the topic sort of fell away.
A little over two years ago, we got a dog. She’s wonderful, and some people have even suggested she’s our kid. Well, she is the same amount of work sometimes.
Now, with the experience of raising a pup, she no longer says she wants kids. She says she’s had enough, and is thankful a dog lasts for fifteen years and then is gone, while a kid will outlive you. I couldn’t agree more.
It won’t work for everyone, but if there is a question of a person you love very much and the concept of children is tearing you apart, try getting a dog. Commit to it, train it properly, research its ideal diet, make sure it’s the happiest, healthiest dog on the planet.
If after all that work your significant other still can’t live without kids and you still can’t live with them, it’s time to find a new arrangement. It’s worth pointing out that custody battles for dogs can be just as harrowing as custody battles for younguns, though.
I’m currently married, in my late 30s. I’ve always loved animals, and the sight of a dog or cat would make me smile and I never had such feelings for kids. My husband always thought that I would come around, and perhaps I did as well. Now I’m here, 10 years into the marriage and my husband wants a kid before ‘it’s too late’. My whole body panicks at the thought of preganancy, labor and my fear of not being a good mother because I simply didn’t want this in the first place. There is such heartache over all this, and also the lingering thought that maybe I will regret my decision, whatever I do.
Hi C,
I’m sorry you’re in such a difficult position. As for regret, one phrase that is popular on this blog is “It is better to regret not having children than to regret having children.” Once the kids are here you can’t give them back. Also, emphasize to your husband that you (not him) are the one who has to go through all the physical torture to bring a child into the world. Best wishes whatever you decide.
Regarding REGRET:
I was reading an article in the paper on making career choices, and I thought the following advice pertained, as well, to people making the decision whether to have kids: Assume that whichever choice you make will turn out to be the wrong one, then choose the one which would be easier to live with.
If I’m going to regret my decision — one way or the other, I’d rather regret NOT having children than have them and resent them. Once you have them, there’s no refund, no return. If you regret having them, you’ll regret it for the rest of your life. But if you end up regretting NOT having kids, you can still have lots of children in your life: adoption, nieces & nephews, friends’ kids, teach, work in a daycare, babysit, Big Brother & Big Sister, Adopted Grandparents, etc.
Jerry Steinberg
Founding Non-Father Emeritus of NO KIDDING!
The international social club for childless and childfree couples and singles
http://www.nokidding.net; jerry@nokidding.net
I am childFree by choice, and I can speak from expereince that dating someone who has kids is a CHORE not a relationship.
I am dating a man in his 50′s who has kids (well adult kids, 20′s and 30′s), so if you think that dating someone with kids is OK as long as they’re grown – You’re Wrong. Learn from my experience. It’s a nightmare. Notice I said, I’m dating this man. Everyday people ask why we’re not living together or in a committed relationship – the answer is simple – kids. He’s got them and I don’t want them, not my own or anyone else’s.
Now who would think that a 30 yr old kid could cause problems in our relationship at this stage. I would never have thought it. But trust me, it’s a major hindrance to the success and happiness of our spending time together.
This man has his 30 yr old son living at home with him, and this son has complete control over his father, and makes it his business to interfere in our relationship, to control his father, etc. The problem – it causes fights with us. My partner says I shouldn’t let this stuff bther me, it’s nnot my kid and I shouldn’t care, so I said, OK, sounds good to me, I don’t care, you two do whatever you want, just leave me out of it – I was happy about that. Then the tabes turned and my partner says he doesn’t understand how I can be so uninvolved and not care at all about his son. HELLO! You were the one who told me to not care.
Simply put, it’s a major problem, causes fights, and is distressing in the relationship. Who needs it.
If I’d had my time back I WOULD never have allowed myself to fall in love with a man who has kids, not any kids, regardless their ages, etc. Now I have to leave the man I love or choose to live a life that is affected by kids – someone else’s kids. YIKES!
Don’t take that journey people, it’s beyond the realm of rational thinking to believe that you’ll be ok dating someone who’s got kids…..it doesn’t matter how old his/her kids are, being a parent will ALWAYS take priority over being a partner, and that my friends is where the problem lies. Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone who always puts you on the bottom of the priority list….and I mean always.
As much as they say they can balance, and that you’ll never be a lesser priority, it’s not humanly possible to expect that of a parent. I have watched my partner rush home at the end of the day to make dinner for his 30 yr old son who lives with him and he takes it in the bedroom to him because the bum doesn’t want to get out of bed. But there’s no problem right ??? Think again!
I have decided that dating anyone who has kids is not a reasonable option for me. It simply does not work.
I’ve been with my GF for about a month now- dating for 2 weeks, and we’ve been official for almost 2 weeks. I know she wants kids- she’s mentioned she wants to get in shape so she can exercise during pregnancy. (what?) I figure I should bring up the idea that I don’t want children sooner rather than later.
Sigh, I’m not looking forward to this though. I’ve never brought this up before in a relationship, so I don’t know how to do this. For those of you that discussed this early on with your bf/gf- what did you say? How did the discussion go?
I guess I can always hope that she hasn’t really thought about it and she might change her mind, right? Ugh. I really like this girl…
Tezcat, you need to discuss this sooner rather than later so you can split up now before either of you get too attached to the other. It has always been a dealbreaker for me, resulting in the automatic end to the relationship. Waiting too long will only make it tougher and more painful so get it done NOW.
You need to set her free so she can find someone who wants to have kids, and you need to be set free so you can find someone who wants to be childfree.
It’s best to discuss the issue of children at the beginning of a relationship. That way, you’re being upfront and honest, and getting the one issue that doesn’t offer a compromise out of the way.
It’s kinda like smoking. If you quit after having smoked for just a couple of months, it’s much easier. If you smoke for years and years, it’s absolute hell quitting.
It’s best to break up before you get really attached and entrenched.
I will always remember the advice my dear grandmother gave me when my girlfriend dropped me at age 18: “There are many more fish in the sea!”
If you want to meet childfree fish, go fishing where the childfree fish hang out.
Jerry Steinberg
Founding Non-Father Emeritus of NO KIDDING!
The international social club for childless and childfree couples and singles
http://www.nokidding.net; jerry@nokidding.net
In my own personal experience, the only thing that actually helped was getting sterilized.
In my 20′s I had more than my fair share of relationships, where I had been 100% up front, honest and from the get-go told the men I was dating that I loathed children in general and would NEVER have one, more than 75% of the relationships I had ended after the guy, long into the relationship, realized he couldn’t “change my mind” and I wasn’t going to “grow out of it”. The level of disrespect and dishonesty with the breeding minded was staggering! Here I was, telling each one of them it would never happen, almost daily expressing my disdain for all things child-related and these men, instead of taking me at my word and respecting my choice, either thought they could somehow force me to breed or that it was simply a “phase”. I actually had one guy who was contemplating “oopsing” me, until he found out that I would stop at nothing to abort if that happened. It never improved…
Until I was 30 and FINALLY managed to talk a doctor into doing a tubal and ablation on me. I had to jump through countless hoops and answer all the demeaning “Are you sure?” and “But what if you change your mind?” and “What if you meet your husband and he wants kids?” questions, but I got it done. My MD said he’d never performed the procedure on a woman who’d not had kids before.
Since then, my dates discover fairly early into our romance that I am not only barren but also sterile and that absolutely nothing can ever possibly cause me to conceive. That has helped immensely. The breeding obsessive will bow out quickly and quietly. The like minded are always thrilled beyond measure. I’ve only had one fellow who was a tad confused at first, doubting the permanence of the operation and while somewhat romanticizing the fetish of breeding, was on the fence about the realism of going through with it. When things started to become serious we sat down and made sure he was 100% positive that he was ok with never having kids. Other than that one instance though, post-operation dating has been MUCH easier and less stressful.
I am so happy to hear things worked out for you in the end!!!!
I had the exact same problem when I was “dating”, mind you I am only 20 so I have a lot more dating to go. The first man I got serious with wanted a child and even offered to go have a child with some other woman but stay with me…….The next guy I made sure to bore into his mind that I did not want children at all and he agreed he did not either, but he lied the entire relationship. I fell in love with him then he told me finally that he wanted at least one child and he wanted me to birth it…….He said he thought he could change his own mind. In my own personal opinion I feel that some men fall in love with the idea of parenthood and as an extension they fall in love with my reproductive possibilities. I have done the online dating thing and even made it blatantly clear my CF choice is written in stone,yet I still had men try to bingo me into being with them. I do not want to go through disrespectful men till I am 40. I know that sounds like I am jumping the gun but I am so tired of dating, I know what I want and who I want.
I respect people’s decision to have children, but they do not respect mine, and hearing about doctors not allowing sterilization just because of age sounds ridiculous and quite frankly scares me. I wonder if it is so bad to just lie straight up and say to a potential date “hey I’m sterile just so ya know” just so that I can have it easy and ease the stress on my future dating. In my experience I have found that it is incredibly hard to find a guy that does not want to reproduce! And I fear that I may do something that seems motherly to them and it will make them think about knocking me up. I am so scared and feel hopeless and it makes me question my strong decision to not have kids (meaning will I have to give in and pop one out if I want a relationship to last).
I am a very honest person but in a lying world one lie for my future doesn’t seem so bad does it?
It is not easy being childfree and single past a certain age. There are tons of men available when a woman – childfree or not – is in her 20′s. Many men under the age of 35 have no interest in having kids so they are more open to this lifestyle. Go forward two decades after the 25th birthday and the reality changes a lot for women.
Even the childfree-by-choice women are finding how the dating pool dwindles. A woman past 42 at the most is viewed as an invisible woman. Men are not that interested in even the most interesting of older women due to younger women being interested in the same men that may not have gotten the interest in their youth. Look on any dating sites and the men in their 40′s or 50′s will say they would date a woman in the same age bracket but have the interest regarding age as young as 18-21 and they would much prefer a younger woman than settling for what they view as an old woman.
Telling a man one is barren through being sterile from surgery or genetics only makes casual sex more appealing to him. No worries of pregnancies are there so he can hit it and run. Being childfree does release us from many of life’s snags but it in no way makes dating a Utopia. A man is going to be shallow enough to choose a young & prettier single mother over the childfree woman who dares to let herself age even though she has far less drama than the single mother and may have more than her own income.
Childfree girl in my 20s here. Haven’t had a relationship end over that issue per se yet…But one thing I’ve noticed is that it has made me loads more flexible about other stuff. I don’t care what religion as long as he’s not a crazy, what ethnicity as long as he’s hot (!), what job as long as he’s employed and working hard toward something. I think being childfree is great; but since the majority of people aren’t, I think it’s common sense for us to be more open about the other stuff. You might not be able to get your 6’1″ Caucausian dark haired green-eyed lawyer making $400k/yr who loves talking, long walks on the beach, cooking and cleaning, etc, etc, etc…and *also* is childfree =P
You guys are my heroes.
I am so glad I found this site. I am so tired of apologizing for who I am and what I want, which is a life with no kids. I support all my girlfriends who want babies, throw showers, raise my glass, etc….why can they never be that respectful of me. I am even a godmother!
I thought being CF (and cute and a successful nurse!) would make me chum for the sharks, but these men in their 40′s jonesing for babies? Ugh. I mean, it’s like THEY have the uterus. It is actually surprising how many CF girlfriends I have and all my guy friends (including the pieces of crap) want babies. Too weird.
I make it known that I don’t want kids before even dating. If they still ask me out after that then we’re golden. Right now I’ve been with a great guy for a year, we’re both 25.
On the wanting kids scale we are:
Wants kids/ Does not want kids
Him 45/55
Me 30/70
I’m in my mid 20s. I have dated a guy for 4 years, he said that he did not want children in the beginning but changed his mind later on. His reason being the ever so lame “I want to be like my parents and give back to the world”. We broke up, and as another result, I don’t believe when a guy in his 20s say that he seriously does not want children, unless he had his vasectomy paperwork to prove it.
I then looked online for dating, I found some wonderful childfree men who are energetic, smart, fun and adventurous. However, none of them belong to my age group. Not that I mind the age all that much, but ideally, I would like to grow together with my significant other from the same stage in life, rather than dating a well-established, successful man when I am only fresh out of college and on my first job.
Somehow, these men that I have talked with on dating websites, in their late 30s or 40s, have been telling me that childfree women in their age group are non-existent. Sometimes I wonder which is rarer, childfree men or childfree women.
I am in my early 30′s and have known since I was a kid, that I wasn’t wired to be a parent. I have never had the desire to produce children.
I was recently divorced from my wife because of this. When we got into the relationship we were in college, and it developed from there, she was aware of my decision, and told me she didn’t want them either. Apparently she didn’t really feel that way. Couple years into the marriage she started hinting that she wanted kids, and what a great father I would be. It’s as though she figured i would change my mind at some point. I was tricked by a fence sitter who thought she would change me. Soon after we divorced.
I have dated a couple people since, but it seems like ladies think I have some sort of curable disease, that they are going to fix… I’m hoping for the best on finding someone who feels the same way as I do, and honestly means it.
Im going to get snipped, so it’s not even possible, because apparently just saying it over and over doesn’t get the point across.
On behalf of sane minded women who have not been struck with “babies on the brain” I apologize for those ladies. Forgive them, they really didn’t get it. Neither do the men I date. They really think that they will be able to “secretly” knock me up and I will just be ok with it. Uh, no, I control that buddy. 20 years of protecting myself against unwanted pregnancy and going strong. nice try, though.
I am a childfree 62 year old woman. At my age, the problem is to find a childfree man, and I have indicated this as clearly as possible in my profiles of dating sites. But again and again, I am contacted by men, who think, that their children are no problem, because they are grown and gone. Some even indicate to have no children on their profile, because they do not consider adult progeny as children.
This is very frustrating, especially because they are unable to even comprehend, that while the children are a part of their life, they are nothing more than a disturbance and a nuisance to a new partner.
It is somewhere innate in the human biology, that once parents get emotionally attached to their brood, this is irreversibly inscribed into their brain. Emotionally, the attachment to the children always comes first. Parents are addicted to care for the wellbeing of their offspring the same way as alcoholic are addicted to their bottle. They can keep away by will power, but they can never be cured from the craving. Analogous to alcoholism, the addiction to the brood could be called parentism.
Parentism is good for the children, but detrimental to a new partner. Metaphorically, the affection and attachment available to a new partner is never more than the leftovers, that the children do not take, while they have the first choice.
So if any childfree man 60+ lonely and wishing to find a childfree woman is interested, he is invited to read my blog:
egalitarianrationalcommitmentparadigm.blogspot.com
Correction: As English is not my native language, my suggestion to call the addiction of parents to care for their offspring ‘parentism’ was made in ignorance, that this word already has a different meaning. Breederism may be a better expression. Or has anybody a better suggestion?
Bringing it up was easy. I once outed myself on a plane to a guy I literally just met (and had no interest in dating) and discovered that he was cf too. It’s easy. Wait for a nearby baby to scream (you won’t wait long, if you get out of the house) then casually remark something like “and that’s why I’ll never have kids” or “i cant stand that sound.” done.
I think being CF should be mentioned on the beginning, at the first chance of not being that much awkward/pushy. I did this for all my life (and also to guys that wanted to date me, but my intention was leaving to study in another country – I was serious about that, would not change it for nothing and I made it happen), and I think sincerity about the deal breakers is the best option to avoid wasting time and stress later in the relationship.
Before I moved country to study, I met a guy, a successful engineer, gentle, polite and he invited me to a date. Right there, when he asked about my future plans, I told I would travel and nothing would stop me. He thought I would change my mind, we dated 2 years and I got the opportunity to study abroad. We ended, I went my way, he went his, and that is it.
In this trip, I met another guy. I did the same. He looked at me with a smile, and said : so soon and we are already thinking alike. 4 years later, we are living together (we found out we had muuuch more in common after that) and soon will tie the knots officially.
A tip I give to CF people always when they ask me about dating and such: go to places where parents are not majority, find hobbies and goals that are more similar to people that will not have kids. Traveling, studying, certain sports, people who are deeply involved with their careers/interest, they are less likely to want to change that for a baby. People who are always “on the road”, that like to learn, do spontaneous things.
Joining CF communities also helps, take every chance you have, I am sure it will work out and I wish you luck!